Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok, not looking for any wyrd fan boy comments or any "they nerfed my favourite master" type posts but as a whole system, how do you guys think the transition from v1/1.5 to M2E has gone? How balanced do you think it is now? How "streamlined" do you consider it? Do you think the unbeatable combos still exist? And do you think it was worth the hassle the company went through? As a regular player and a massive fan of Malifaux, the world/fluff as well as the game I'm generally interested (and not just to start any arguments). Thanks for your time!

I do think they've streamlined things nicely. I wasn't sure about the upgrades at first, but they're growing on me now. Ditto with the schemes. I also like how they've toned down Soulstones a fair amount.

Others will, likely, disagree with some or more parts of that though...

My only real frustration has been in the fact that most of the Masters I'd like to play are still in Beta so it's hard to get a real "synch" on them and get into really learning to use them.

But all-in-all, I'm very happy with the move from 1.5 to M2E.

With all the GW-related issues of late, Malufaux's been getting 100% of my gaming attention (and money!)

Valete,

JohnS

Not experienced enough to be able to tell balance.

The game is very well streamlined, and as a casual player there's very little I miss, and I find it much easier and faster to play and teach while maintaining a similar level of strategy, move by move. Also, now it's not so complex it's a chore to learn a new master (both as or against).

Because of the improvements above and because a number of the worse pieces have been brought up to playable. (So, I guess regarding the balance question, I'd say that yeah, that's at least a bit better).

Having played both extensively, I think M2E is very much the superior product.

The power levels that caused so many problems in the previous editions (Hamelin vs Gremlins: auto-loss for Gremlins) and the Dreamer alpha strikes are gone, replaced with a much more balanced power level where all masters can compete.

I like that the crew choices can be entirely thematic and still useful. In previous edition there was never a choice with Seamus, if you wanted to play well you had to ignore the copy cat killer and Sybelle as they were simply not up to scratch compared to other, less thematic choices in the Ressur faction. In M2E you can still take non-thematic models (and you should do. Experiment because you can find interesting synergies that work with your particular play style) but you are no longer penalised by not including models that don't fit with your theme.

The scheme selection I was initially meh! on, as I like the option to pick your own, but my gaming group prefers the narrowed down range as it speeds the pre-game up (which is does!) but it does offer the chance to experiment with a scheme you'd ordinarily over-look in favour of reliable ones.

All of the following post is my personal opinion. Take it or leave it, I am only responding with my opinion and leave it to the readers to assign their own value.



What do I "Really think of M2E" is the question posed. Personally I do not like it at all. There are some good portions of the game itself, and there are some things that were executed very poorly. As a baseline, my opinion is based on previously being a major fan of Malifaux Classic and playing a large and significant amount of games. In addition I contributed to the playtesting and development of portions of the game in addition to contributing to the growth of the community in the role of Henchman and TO for both local events and major conventions (Gencon, Adepticon, NOVA Open).

M2E is a similar but different game from Malifaux Classic. This is a view that the new developers continue to try and combat or flat deny via podcasts and vidcasts. This is a view proved out by the shift of focus in the wider Malifaux player community as reflected in blogs, podcasts, and even the posts on Wyrd's own forums. The current supporters and "fan boys" will repeatedly push Malifaux Classic players who are uncomfortable with the M2E changes to "just play more games because the game is different. Eventually you will get used to the differences in the new game." There are a number of places you can go (variety of blogs, a couple podcasts, Wyrd's own forums, other public forums) and gather a long list of how the game has changed with the release of M2E.

At a very high level M2E has reduced and removed a great deal of complexity from the models in the game. Furthermore, an attempt was made to streamline the core rules which resulted in some clarifications but also resulted in some obfuscation of previously clear rules. One fantastic example where the core rules streamlining was successful was the clarification of game effects through the inclusion and change to Conditions. I look at that as an excellent example of where the M2E transition was handled well, had a positive result, and made the game better. However, an example of further obfuscation is this following rule from the rulebook:

In the rare instance that two special rules contradict each other, the more specific of the two rules takes precedence.

There are numerous rules and changes that can be held up on both sides of the argument (Obfuscation vs clarification) but a key to part of the problem I believe M2E has can be found in the design theory and approach used. . Essentially EricJ, as the lead designer along with his new design team, purposely built in areas of rules obfuscation to create "That Guy Traps". Have a read of his blog (linked previously) to see what that means.

The M2E update attempt was to create a game that was "more accessible" to a wider range of gamers. The tactic to accomplish this was to reduce the number of abilities and interactions for specific models, pushing game models to fulfill a single function very well opposed to being flexible. A system of upgrades was added to try and capture additional complexity and flexibility in models via upgrades. Unfortunately, this whole system is generally "clunky" in how it was executed. Furthermore, the Wyrd designers refused to follow the lead and example set by Privateer Press with their MKII game update, and did not push for keyword streamlining or for aligning identical terms to have the same definition. Instead, the referenced design team decided to reduce the number of abilities but fully print out what each ability does on the individual cards, removing both uncommon and common abilities from the rulebook and moving them to the card.

M2E leaves us with the shell of Malifaux Classic, further "dumbed down" to be accessible to the widest audience possible. Malifaux was a complex game to play and I believe this was a good thing overall. My faith in gamers was such that I trusted gamers could cope with and figure out the complexities in Malifaux despite the learning curve. The steeper learning curve in Malifaux Classic helped to provide a rewarding challenge for those who spent time honing their skill in playing the game. Reducing that complexity and "making it accessible" or "Dumbing it down" was unnecessary to clean up the game and increase the player base. The flattening of the learning curve for the game has reduced the difference between a brand new player and an experienced Malifaux veteran along with reducing the reward for learning how to play the game well. I know that when I have personally played M2E I do not like it. Had there not been a Malifaux Classic, I might enjoy the new edition but I am left constantly feeling what was lost from Malifaux Classic while playing the new version. It's a much more simplified and straight forward game, but there are other games out there that are just as simple and straight forward and execute their game-play better.

Malifuax 1st edition was good, but the three rulebooks really did make it a bit of a mess.

There were a lot of great ideas in Malifaux 1st ed, and I think that M2E is a great way to take those ideas and make them a bit better.

The production values jumped significantly (packaging, artwork, models). The rules became easier for casual people to get into, but still keeps a lot of the depth.

There's little things that some people say aren't as good, but overall M2E was a good move, similar to Warmachine's MK2.

Overall I'm happy, and I think it will help the game in the long run. But this is the opinion of someone who is a casual Malifuax player, and always felt that there were way too many abilities for each unit/master.

I like it, I found the 1st edition to hard to understand the mechanics, plus I like the fact that everything's is more of less balanced, but not in a chess-esque kind of way.

My only two complaints would be the art direction, as I really liked the art concept and design beforehand and that there is a upcoming tournament coming but the vast majority of players I see have taken up Ramos, and I mean that 85% of Malifaux players for this tourney have picked up Ramos and there was a small variety of others playing other factions (which is sort of a shame because I like the Arcanists and Ramos/Kaeris background as well as the robot spiders, and train monsters) so it makes me wonder if there is a decent competitive balance within the game..

But apart from that I like the game, I like the plastic minis and I like the background and that's enough to keep me hooked

Purely in terms of the book, I don't think its a very good layout design - lots and lots of empty space and wasted areas filling up a double spread to fill the page count.

Rules - I'll need to play a bit more before deciding fully.

Nix, interesting post. I also hadn't noticed the problem with the quoted text... that is somewhat troubling...

I agree that the upgrade system is clunky; not sure how I feel about only keeping a very narrow number of abilities as unprinted (mostly conditions, charging, interact)... Horror in particular seems unnecessary given the number of instances, but I do remember playing a couple abilities wrong for several games w/o being corrected in 1st ed, so it's nice to have the easy reference in front of you.

Re dumbing down, as a matter of personal experience, it was really rough both learning and teaching 1st edition- 2nd is still probably the most complex game I play, but that dumbed down learning curve you criticized means that new players can actually play the game without being led through each action. So, maybe they took it too far, but as a casual player I've enjoyed 2nd edition far more, and my friends who had trouble with 1st edition's overcomplexity haven't complained about 2nd ed, so I've been getting more games in... Normally I'd be the last person to claim that lowest common denominator is good, but I think they brought it down to the right level now: it's still not 40k where you just roll fists full of dice at each other or Warmachine where the way anyone actually plays the game revolves around a really narrow set of strategies...

I am in full agreement that even M2E is more complex than other games out there. In fact, it's one of the challenges I am having in finding another game I enjoy as much as I enjoyed Malifaux Classic.

On the teach-ability of the game and getting others into the game. I have heard a lot of similar statements to yours above. (i.e. M2E is easier to teach. 1.5 was difficult for new players to grasp and to teach) I always find that comment confusing as I never encountered those problems. Teaching the basics of Malifaux were always very straight forward for me and I cannot remember 1 demo in 3 years where someone walked away from the demo and did not get into the game. The people I saw who did not get into Malifaux or who claimed it was "too complex" always had their minds made up before actually playing a game and never actually played a demo (especially not a demo with a henchman). I guess I was lucky in my time as a henchman that I did not have the issues others seem to have had.

Re: complexity, yeah, either version of the game are the only ones where I've found that level of complexity actually rewarding.

Re: teaching, I'd say that the people I taught enjoyed the game, but a few felt that there was the "wall of text" problem on some cards (mostly masters), and the most consistent issue was the unconventional objective system, which I also find one of the bigger improvements of second edition (reduced to a more manageable scope (read: doesn't require encyclopedic knowledge) and not so customizable)

As a brand new player, I really like it. I've not played 1.5 (or 1E), but I jumped on during the transition and have been through many podcasts and forums where they talk about the differences as a result; I can tell you I wouldn't have bothered with the previous edition at all.

The only thing that's a little jarring is the "plain english" reading of the rules Justin has preached about over and over. It causes problems in Wyrd's rules' forum constantly, since the rules philosphy is basically a common sense doctrine when reading abilities and such and not a hard, defined template. I understand it, but it gives rules lawyers endless fodder and requires a slightly different way of thinking than in my other (albeit lean) tabletop experiences.

My group only occasionally played previously, but M2E really invigorated our interest in the game (going from a once a month hobby to regular weekly games.) There may be a few occasional elements I miss from the past edition, but as a whole, M2E definitely feels like a much improved game.

Rules questions definitely still arise, and I do feel there are places where better wording could have solved the problems before they began. Still, it is a much cleaner rules set as a whole, at least in our experience.

 Eyefink wrote:
The only thing that's a little jarring is the "plain english" reading of the rules Justin has preached about over and over.

Yeah, that guy's a douche.

I haven't played any official M2E games, but some of my usual group and I did beta test when we could.

In short, I liked the changes to strats/schemes and objectives (especially being able to bluff on my schemes with said markers).

I dislike some of the particular model changes (some mechanically, some due to personal preference), and strongly dislike the upgrades.

Malifaux in general is less of a sore spot in my group these days, and we've even snuck in a 1.5 game here and there, but I doubt we'll ever move to 2.0 at this point, and people have started selling off old crews to recoup some costs (3 so far, I believe).

 Lalochezia wrote:

 Eyefink wrote:
The only thing that's a little jarring is the "plain english" reading of the rules Justin has preached about over and over.

Yeah, that guy's a douche.

Is he the "Zed" fellow?

Got my first game of M2E next week! Now to try and work out how to choose my crew.

Is that in terms of aesthetics or gameplay?

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 Lalochezia wrote:

 Eyefink wrote:
The only thing that's a little jarring is the "plain english" reading of the rules Justin has preached about over and over.

Yeah, that guy's a douche.

Is he the "Zed" fellow?

Got my first game of M2E next week! Now to try and work out how to choose my crew.

No, Justin's username on wyrd's site is Justin, makes it quite easy to find him.

 KoganStyle wrote:
Is that in terms of aesthetics or gameplay?

I've got a large Rasputina crew plus a not quite as large Ramos one (flogged the rest of my stuff) so its how a new crew is built for use on the table.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 Lalochezia wrote:

 Eyefink wrote:
The only thing that's a little jarring is the "plain english" reading of the rules Justin has preached about over and over.

Yeah, that guy's a douche.

Is he the "Zed" fellow?

Got my first game of M2E next week! Now to try and work out how to choose my crew.

No, Justin's username on wyrd's site is Justin, makes it quite easy to find him.

And here it's Lalochezia.

Cool to see so many people enjoying M2E.

My thoughts.... I want to thank Wyrd. As a player who was fascinated with almost every faction and played from the start, was a local beta tester for Avatars and had way too many models...... I want to thank Wyrd for making it soooooo easy to walk away from their game, not spend another dime and not feel the least bit of regret about it.

Uh, wow. What made you drop the game so hard?

A dumbing down of rules that made them fall in with already existing skirmish based games, what I believe was pandering to the "everyone gets a trophy" crowd. The constant nerfing of various casters due to what amounted to little more than "I cant figure out how to beat this list so it MUST be broken". Finally what I consider atrocious customer service while using the excuse "we are just a small company". Yeah that doesn't fly anymore...its been what 10 years? Mind you I used to be an ardent supporter of Malifaux.....

Lalochezia wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 Lalochezia wrote:

 Eyefink wrote:
The only thing that's a little jarring is the "plain english" reading of the rules Justin has preached about over and over.

Yeah, that guy's a douche.

Is he the "Zed" fellow?

Got my first game of M2E next week! Now to try and work out how to choose my crew.

No, Justin's username on wyrd's site is Justin, makes it quite easy to find him.

And here it's Lalochezia.

Cool to see so many people enjoying M2E.

I know, it's just more fun when people don't know who you are on Dakka, then you get some interesting posts.

As for me and M2E, I haven't played since the beta rules came out last year. M2E changed things about Malifaux that I enjoyed. I still have my crews and unopened blisters, just haven't had the urge to play since the edition change. Maybe I'll start back up in M3E.

Well, contrary to some of the above, I've been really enjoying M2E. It's not as restrictive as 1.5, I can take more, varied models with each master, and I've yet to see a truly worthless model or matchup that is just unfair (and there were a ton in 1,5). I'm still not playing as much as I'd like, but lately Wyrd has gotten all of my coveted gaming time and dollars.

I have to disagree with the dumb-downed comments. Having played 1.5 competitively, there were too many loop holes and conditions that pretty much forced you to take only certain masters or characteristics. Book 1 masters were the least powerful as the majority of the rules disadvantaged living models at the time. I don't see that as rewarding for having figured that out, it just means models got put to one side.

M2E has brought models in from the cold and opened up new tactical avenues, no longer are certain schemes favoured and auto-included, no longer are themed crews disadvantaged to a large scale.

I haven't bought from Wyrd so I can't comment on Customer Service.

Can't comment on the gameplay of M2E just yet since I don't have the book yet, pre ordered a copy but hasn't arrived yet. Can't be bothered to buy the small one since the big one is on pre order and don't want to get stuck with 2 books.

The upside is that I've started finishing scenery and painting models for once

I hear quickfuze's complaints, and definitely respect that desire for nuance, but Ozy's comment on models nailed it for me: there definitely are a few poor models, but I feel that the field is much more even, these days.

My ideal form of Mali would be with pieces a little more complex than where it currently is, with current balance (or so) and rules roughly speaking, and without the upgrade system- while I've gotten used to it, since I've yet to play a master with 2 Limited powerful upgrades, it usually amounts to a "play your master optimally tax" instead of choices.

I've been a fan of Wyrd miniatures since before Malifaux existed. I witnessed from afar a bunch of disparate sculpts being pulled together into a cohesive gaming world.

Kudos to Wyrd on that.

I also really appreciated the card vs. dice mechanic for randomization. It lended an air of strategy to what was just random in every other game.

But, I don't get off on the idea of complicated rules for the sake of complication. Malifaux 1.0 and 1.5 always seemed to me to be more about special case rules than game play. So I never really played more than one or two games, here and there. Sure it was fun with the right people, but I just couldn't spend the time to learn the overlycomplex for the sake of complexity rules.

With 2.0, though, I've utterly lost interest. Why? You'd think it'd cater right to my gripes on the previous, right? Wrong.

They changed things that didn't need changing. My switch flipped from like to dislike with the change on how soulstones are used. It went from burning a precious resource at a critical moment, after knowing the outcome, to make a strategic increase in the possibility to success... actually, you know, change fate. To boring. Dull. Decide before and possibly increase your success chance. It went from very evocative of my imagination to... blegh, reroll. Like every other game. I don't care enough to relearn this new game that is just like everything else.

Oh, so as for the models? The plastic reboots of the female characters in general go from the previous mildly fantasy porn to full on stripperific. I always used to love that the females were attractive but not pr0n crap... except those for whom it was an actual part of character. They've lost that for me, now. The female dynamisn of the new models is all around the stipper pole, not actually being competent and effective.

Very good point, Gymnogyps, re: soulstones.

Re: minis, yeah, there are definitely some I prefer the old versions of (ronin were some of my favorites- went from alternate west badasses with swords to kind of a cosplay thing?), but there are enough improvements in the line that I don't have a serious issue with it- mostlyu just pick and choose from the two lines now.