Defiance Games wrote:
Let us preface all this by saying that Defiance Games has had it's share of ups and downs and we've made a lot of mistakes along the way. It has definitely not been a pretty journey in the least and we are well aware of our reputation.

Over the last few months we have been regrouping and rebuilding to fix our past and bring new products to the market - helped along by a small, but successful Kickstarter in October.

That all said, we can't stand by and have our reputation further destroyed by statements that only tell a part of the story.

Alyssa Faden (or Natalya Faden) of Torn World has made a statement that basically says we are to blame for her Kickstarter failing. This is absolutely untrue. We don't believe she could afford to finish her Kickstarter with us or anyone.

The Torn Armor Kickstarter - see here: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/alyssafaden/torn-armor/

Torn raised $67K in April 2013 primarily by including a large number of miniatures as stretch goals and a free shipping offer - similar to what the large companies like Mantic Games do – when they have $1M+ Kickstarters. The core game had 12 unique miniatures (39 total figures per set). They hired another company to sculpt these figures for them and provide manufacturable STL files.

This didn't happen. It was clear early on that the sculpts that were being produced were not manufacturable at all. A combination of undercuts, ultra-thin part areas, and other problems would mean anyone would be hard pressed to actually produce them. Alyssa then described these sculpts as "sketches" that could be used by other sculptors to create manufacturable models. Torn also hired a number of physical (i.e. non-digital putty/greenstuff) sculptors to make versions of these as well.

The sculpts from Alyssa's digital sculptors cost close to $20K from what she has told us. This doesn't include the additional sculptures ($300-400 or more each) done in putty.

At the same time, as Alyssa realized that nothing she had paid for from the digital sculptors was usable, she was receiving quotes from China factories to produce the miniatures. These were coming back 30% or so over what she had “estimated”. One quote we saw put the molding alone at $45K. (i.e. it didn't include the manufacturing of any miniatures – just the molds to do so – leaving $20K for sculpting, printing, shipping, etc). The project was absolutely doomed at this stage.

At this point she called us and wanted to know if we could help do this project for her. We pushed back as we already had a lot going on here and didn't want to complicate things. She kept coming back to us asking us to please quote on the project. Finally - and how we now regret this - we did.

Her plan was that she was going to have a new digital sculptor take the digital files and “fix” them to allow them to be molded. This sounded doable and we put in place a project to mold and produce 500 core box sets. Keep in mind there are 12 unique figures in this box set and 39 figures per box. It is not a huge project but something that should take a few weeks to produce after receiving usable files. (Our project also did not include any of the 20+ other sculptures – some of them quite large multi-part expensive pieces including a massive Mu warmachine thing in many separate parts – that were needed to satisfy the Kickstarter – go visit her Kickstarter page to see all the add-on sculpts that were part of this – our part was just the core box set. She planned on having us quote on the additional work for these figures after the first project. At the time we did not know there was probably zero budget for this available.)

We drew up a contract together and this was our responsibility list:

1. Create molds for plastic production from TW-supplied master sculptures
2. Produce plastic figures from DFG-created molds.

Torn were responsible for giving us workable 3D files – which she failed to mention in her post - which we would of course work with the sculptor to make sure we could use. And that is where it fell apart.

As this was happening, the conventional sculptors had finished their work. We were ready to start molding those and producing parts. We sent pictures of the ones we received to Alyssa who posted them up on her Kickstarter pages. Based on the feedback she received she decided that the physical sculpts weren't good enough. She instructed us not to produce them and wait for the digital files to be redone.

She brought in a sculptor who began to work on the files. Unfortunately, at the time we didn't know that the files were such a mess that he was basically just re-sculpting everything from scratch. Reportedly, he was being paid $100-200 each - a really low price for the amount of work he was doing. Unfortunately, as he began to deliver the files to us we saw that changes needed to be made. The technical fixes themselves were fine - but the way they were being laid out presented issues with undercuts and in some cases used way too many parts per figure.

For example - the Mu Slinger - a 20mm tall mouse person - was delivered in five separate parts: head, two arms, body, and tail. Alyssa's instructions were to have as little gluing for the end customer as possible. We went back with a list of changes and suggestions on how to repose the sculpts to get close to a single piece figure.

The sculptor refused to communicate with us. We were forced to play the telephone game through Alyssa. But even then that did not result in changes. Alyssa was pulling her hair out - we were pulling our hair out as well. We just wanted to get some manufacturable files, print them, make the molds and produce what we were hired to make.

We recommended Alyssa hire another sculptor to try to fix the files - someone we trusted and whose work we respected. That was in December – only a short time ago. He started to look at the files and manipulate them. He quickly realized – as the original “fix” sculptor had - that one of the problems was the original files themselves. He asked if we could receive the native ZBrush files to work from. Those would be layered ZTL files. If he had those, he could make changes quickly.

To be safe, we asked Alyssa to ask the original digital sculptors for a sample of the original files to make sure they worked. Unfortunately, that did not happen. Instead, Alyssa apparently gave those digital sculptors $1000 to send her all the files without looking at them first. (We found out at this point that she and the original sculpting company had had a falling out and weren't on speaking terms – we don't know the whole story.)

The new sculptor received the files and discovered that they were a mess. In his words: "the issue isn't the poses as much as how they decided to layout the layers gaps and spaces that are hard or impossible to patch up because they bound them together. You can cut a piece off there is nothing under it lol have to fill the blank and then smooth it and it looks like crap."

He spent a lot of time and got us the one hoplite pose finalized which Alyssa posted January 8th. We thought we were now going to be okay but the more the sculptor dug into them the worse the files were.

Alyssa told us that she could not afford to pay for additional sculpting. We HAD to make what we had work. Unfortunately, that was impossible given the files we had to work with. Unless someone were to completely re-sculpt these figures from scratch there was no way we could produce them.

Defiance Games is now a scapegoat for Torn's decision to shut down this project - a convenient and easy target because of our own well-documented problems. We don't deny them – we definitely have had them – but we feel they are being used now to cover up Torn's inability to fulfill their Kickstarter.

We signed on to make their figures but we were never given the files that would allow that to happen. We are still prepared to finish the project and we've budgeted the materials and man-hours to do it. We just need usable files and we would be thrilled to do the work and make this project a reality.

Instead we are being blamed for the project's failure and we've been asked to refund the payment. And in the big scheme of things it is fine that they are bailing on their project – that is their right - and want us to pay back money for a part of it that was never completed. But as a small company, we're just not in a position to do that immediately in a lump sum. Along with offering to complete the project if we're given files that can be turned into miniatures, we've also offered to work out a payment plan. We'd love to see Alyssa's project succeed, but we won't lay down and let Defiance be dragged through the mud for something that is - for once - not our fault.

We did not complete the project – because we did not receive files that could be turned into produceable miniatures. If we had these – this project would be done now. We now highly doubt it would have shipped given the financials...this was a severely underfunded Kickstarter and anyone can look at the sheer amount of figures, printing, and shipping and see that.

We know we don't have a great track record and we've been working to fix it. We know we did not complete the project. But we also want people to understand the other side of this story and why that is. This is a terrible situation for everyone involved and the result may be that both our companies go down because of it.

 RiTides wrote:
Judgedoug, it's a fair point, but let's not put on rose-tinted glasses here. It was already clarified that that review was also posted on Defiance's own page, which someone looking into Defiance could certainly have looked at.

Also, when I've had to do things I wasn't familiar with, I generally wasn't risking almost 70K of other people's money . It is totally fair to say that Defiance is the crook here, but it's also fair to say that Torn Armor was a little reckless in going with them. They haven't revealed how much they paid them upfront for no work done, but it seems to have been a lot. Saying they should have done their homework better is reasonable.

And we can all agree that we hope they nail Defiance to the wall for this legally... but they were reckless with the funds in going to Defiance and paying a significant portion of the funds they took in upfront.

Both can be true at the same time, it doesn't have to be one or the other... and imo, that's usually how it is in cases like this. I really hope Torn Armor gets justice and gets their money back.

 Twelvecarpileup wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
Judgedoug, it's a fair point, but let's not put on rose-tinted glasses here. It was already clarified that that review was also posted on Defiance's own page, which someone looking into Defiance could certainly have looked at.

Also, when I've had to do things I wasn't familiar with, I generally wasn't risking almost 70K of other people's money . It is totally fair to say that Defiance is the crook here, but it's also fair to say that Torn Armor was a little reckless in going with them. They haven't revealed how much they paid them upfront for no work done, but it seems to have been a lot. Saying they should have done their homework better is reasonable.

And we can all agree that we hope they nail Defiance to the wall for this legally... but they were reckless with the funds in going to Defiance and paying a significant portion of the funds they took in upfront.

Both can be true at the same time, it doesn't have to be one or the other... and imo, that's usually how it is in cases like this. I really hope Torn Armor gets justice and gets their money back.

Alright, let's say that for some reason she went to their forum, found the specific post (this is a pretty big stretch). The review itself wasn't super detrimental. It talks about casting issues, which anyone could take as it being a bad batch or something. I'm sure they sent her test minis that were just fine.

I'm not saying she couldn't have done more research, but expecting someone who doesn't know wargames (remember it's a board game with plastic pieces), to scour message boards looking for a specific post on a specific forum (this one or defiance's), in a specific thread, on the 52 page (not sure where it's at on Defiance's board) is a little much.

For example, I post on this board occasionally, play lots of mini games, have bought Wargames Factory minis in the last year from the FLGS. But I have no clue what people are talking about when they mention the "wargames fiasco".

 judgedoug wrote:
A surprisingly reasonable response from Defiance. I'm open to the idea that my assessment is incorrect that Torn Armor may actually have the majority of the blame.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
This announcement lays a lot of blame on Torn but it does not get Defiance off the hook.

Defiance thought the other project was unworkable and accepted the contract -- and the money -- anyway.

That's unprofessional, and unacceptable as an excuse for their conduct.

Where did the money go that Torn paid to Defiance?

Instead we are being blamed for the project's failure and we've been asked to refund the payment. And in the big scheme of things it is fine that they are bailing on their project – that is their right - and want us to pay back money for a part of it that was never completed. But as a small company, we're just not in a position to do that immediately in a lump sum.

nkelsch wrote:

Instead we are being blamed for the project's failure and we've been asked to refund the payment. And in the big scheme of things it is fine that they are bailing on their project – that is their right - and want us to pay back money for a part of it that was never completed. But as a small company, we're just not in a position to do that immediately in a lump sum.

While Torn does look like they are heading for a hard road ahead... Defiance needs to return the money... the only thing they are being accused of is 'not refunding the money for the non-work they did'. Regardless how bad Torn is handling the KS, the issue is they gave Defiance money, Defiance is not going to do the work, Defiance has spent the money and cannot provide a refund.

Until the money is refunded, Torn is paralyzed and cannot move on regardless of the 'situation' the KS is left in. Defiance being a small company has no justification for not being able to refund 'unspent' money.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
This announcement lays a lot of blame on Torn but it does not get Defiance off the hook.

Defiance thought the other project was unworkable and accepted the contract -- and the money -- anyway.

That's unprofessional, and unacceptable as an excuse for their conduct.

Where did the money go that Torn paid to Defiance?

You're right, I was going to point that out too. But let's be generous and assume that their guys did spend a modicum of time trying to fix things, playing around with digital files. I could understand for some money being gone. Some of it. From the Defiance post, which of course is not substantiated at this point, "all the money" that Torn gave them probably isn't as big of a percentage of the KS as I was thinking at first.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

Instead we are being blamed for the project's failure and we've been asked to refund the payment. And in the big scheme of things it is fine that they are bailing on their project – that is their right - and want us to pay back money for a part of it that was never completed. But as a small company, we're just not in a position to do that immediately in a lump sum.

While Torn does look like they are heading for a hard road ahead... Defiance needs to return the money... the only thing they are being accused of is 'not refunding the money for the non-work they did'. Regardless how bad Torn is handling the KS, the issue is they gave Defiance money, Defiance is not going to do the work, Defiance has spent the money and cannot provide a refund.

Until the money is refunded, Torn is paralyzed and cannot move on regardless of the 'situation' the KS is left in. Defiance being a small company has no justification for not being able to refund 'unspent' money.

Once again, agreed. But if the percentage of the total KS money initially given to Defiance is returned in full (best case scenario), what if it isn't enough to bring the project to fruition? Torn Armor will still be a dead in the water project.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
snip

As an ex-games producer who's had to play around with fixing bad 3D files on a number of occasions, I can authoritatively say it doesn't cost very much to do. You either get it fixed with a bit of faffing around, or you give up because it is going to be too expensive and tell the supplier of the files to sort them out.

Files for printing are simpler than game files, too.

Instead we are being blamed for the project's failure and we've been asked to refund the payment. And in the big scheme of things it is fine that they are bailing on their project – that is their right - and want us to pay back money for a part of it that was never completed. But as a small company, we're just not in a position to do that immediately in a lump sum. Along with offering to complete the project if we're given files that can be turned into miniatures, we've also offered to work out a payment plan. We'd love to see Alyssa's project succeed, but we won't lay down and let Defiance be dragged through the mud for something that is - for once - not our fault.

We did not complete the project – because we did not receive files that could be turned into produceable miniatures. If we had these – this project would be done now. We now highly doubt it would have shipped given the financials...this was a severely underfunded Kickstarter and anyone can look at the sheer amount of figures, printing, and shipping and see that.

 Twelvecarpileup wrote:
I'm not saying she couldn't have done more research, but expecting someone who doesn't know wargames (remember it's a board game with plastic pieces), to scour message boards looking for a specific post on a specific forum (this one or defiance's), in a specific thread, on the 52 page (not sure where it's at on Defiance's board) is a little much.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
This announcement lays a lot of blame on Torn but it does not get Defiance off the hook.

Defiance thought the other project was unworkable and accepted the contract -- and the money -- anyway.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:


3. He spent about 40 hours playing around with them to see what he could do (he did not ask for or receive payment for this)

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:


3. He spent about 40 hours playing around with them to see what he could do (he did not ask for or receive payment for this)

What is it that Defiance does that gets these people to work for free for them?

Defiance Games wrote: This sounded doable and we put in place a project to mold and produce 500 core box sets. Keep in mind there are 12 unique figures in this box set and 39 figures per box. It is not a huge project but something that should take a few weeks to produce after receiving usable files.

 Theophony wrote:
Thanks Mark for your insight .

Hopefully defiance can learn to abbreviate their company logo soon , I think that's been brought up before too.

After reading the post earlier about the kickstarter for an iPad holder, I hope this gal is incorporated, because there's lots of angry gamers out there that will be getting their money back one way or another.

NoseGoblin wrote:This however does not detract in anyway the behavior of DG, which I find reprehensible. Give her back her funds and let the project stand or fail on its own merits. The fact they would take the job and then not deliver and refuse refund is morally reprehensible.

 paulson games wrote:
I love how they are displacing the blame saying it never would have worked. That doesn't provide an excuse to promise work, fail to deliver and still take the money.

If the files were in fact unusable then Defiance should have refunded the money immediately and let TA take her project to another company. DG's statement sounds an awful lot like well it wasn't going to work, so we liberated her money to save it from being misspent.

Like Dream Forge stated it takes virtually no time to determine that the files won't work, you can check for file integrity using free ware (mesh lab or nettfab) and know within 5 minutes if the file is print worthy or not. It does not take a long involved process. They should have sent Torn Armor a refund for the service that wouldn't be able to be delivered on and cancelled their agreement, not keep the TA money and say oops your bad.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Twelvecarpileup wrote:
I'm not saying she couldn't have done more research, but expecting someone who doesn't know wargames (remember it's a board game with plastic pieces), to scour message boards looking for a specific post on a specific forum (this one or defiance's), in a specific thread, on the 52 page (not sure where it's at on Defiance's board) is a little much.

It's the first post of the most recent thread in the China forum. And again, she could have spent a mere $30 to get a sample of Defiance Games' product, and discovered that they weren't up to scratch before she was $10,000 in the hole.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
This announcement lays a lot of blame on Torn but it does not get Defiance off the hook.

Defiance thought the other project was unworkable and accepted the contract -- and the money -- anyway.

Defiance is claiming the other project as a whole was unworkable, not the part they were being asked to work on. It's like saying Mantic's restic caster should have refused the contract if they thought the HIPS contract would fail, or vice versa.

 ironicsilence wrote:
Defiance's most recent post is much more level headed, shame that response wasnt the first one they went to market with.