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To put things into a simple perspective

Yes we voted with our wallets. Yes Games Workshop your customer base. The customer base that you took for granted. The distributor base that you took for granted. Yes I know your game plan Kirby and have been watching how it has been played out for years. Strong corporations survive recessions with little or no loss in profits by making decisions that not damaging to corporation as a whole. Games Workshop has declined to a point of them being far less of an influence to the hobby now than back at 2006.

GW is in my region a non issue. The vacuum in its place has been easily filled by what is now popular. GW stores are closing and not being replaced. Your scorch earth policy can only go so far.

You destroyed WHFB with 8th ED. You destroyed your cash cow with 6th ED. You lost a lot of loyal customer base, not Timmy 10 year old, but those people, the so called Vets who had the money to spend.

Because many of them ain't going to take your crap anymore.

Instead of promoting the hobby of modeling you (GW management) did something else.
Vertical integration. Revenue streamlining. Words Just words to keep/increase your profits But that can only go so far.

Here's a few more words/phrases.

Decline. Decay. Loss of revenue. Loss of customer base. Loss of your independent distributors. What works in England as a business model will work in the US?

Hardly.

I'll end with this Games Workshop is now at the mercy of their customer base than ever before. The same customer base that they pissed off really badly over the last four years.

Not a good place to be in if you are running a corporation.

The Design Studio has grown considerably!

A few years ago it was less than 90 people. Now it's 145.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The Design Studio has grown considerably!

A few years ago it was less than 90 people. Now it's 145.

Clear proof that quantity is not a substitute for quality.

 silent25 wrote:

 carlos13th wrote:

Its colour coded showing which is video games and which are tabletop.

<blink> <blink>

Damn my lying eyes!

Still with these kickstarter numbers, how many of the products launched with KS funds would have made that amount if they had gone through normal distribution? Having been burned by the Sedition Wars KS, I doubt the game would have made the nearly $1M it did through KS.


.

Not sure, many of them probably wouldn't have made it to the market traditionally.

Still I don't think that's thre question we should be asking,mhe question is that if kick starter didn't exist would the. Only spent on these projects still have keen spent in war gaming

 insaniak wrote:

HairySticks wrote:
Why delete an entire thread for a couple of people breaking forum rules?

Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.

And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...

Said like its a bad thing.

Cheap shot time: I'm sure Warhammer Visions is just the tonic to get those revenues back up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Harriticus wrote:
Mods have bungled this pretty well.

You have but one option to expunge the shame to your house.
Seppuku.


Alternatively...Swiss Chocolate Cakes

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The Design Studio has grown considerably!

A few years ago it was less than 90 people. Now it's 145.

Evidence posted in this thread really does give credence to the theory that Games Workshop is trying to push more into the collectible market than the gaming market, which astounds me. It seems like they are creating products aimed at modellers and collectors (hence their new direction with WD) and the rules have taken a backseat to that. It's sort of like, "Hey, we have tons of amazing miniatures!! Oh, and if you're so inclined, there are rules to play a game with them too!" instead of the other way around.

It really baffles me.

Especially when you compare the quality of what they're producing to the true collectible mini companies.

Forgeworld can hold their own in that company, GW proper....not so much.

GW are putting out loads of rules, though. The various expansions, for instance, and the codexes are being updated much faster than before.

 Frazzled wrote:
[

Cheap shot time: I'm sure Warhammer Visions is just the tonic to get those revenues back up.

Absolutely. Just think of all the "replay" value... you can pick it up after you're done and read it yet again in another language multiple times. It's like 3 magazines in one!... too bad they all apparently suck from the reviews.

Well, I instantly cancelled my subscription... or am attempting to anyways. Who knows what kind of run-around I will get, Itunes store is 'looking into it' as I could not do it automatically because my sub started in Sept, and over 3 months means I have to write in...

You know... I really wonder how many people would buy GW miniatures just to collect if there was no game. I can't imagine that people would buy more than one squad of most things just for collecting purposes; maybe the big monsters but is somebody buying just for collections going to buy 3 Tactical Squads or multiple vehicles?

The reason why you "collect" an army is because you want to fight battles.

Some of the GW models are quite appealing in themselves, though they don't make nearly so much sense outside the game background.

Most of the models are unsuitable for serious display modelling purposes, lacking the scale, proportions, detail and general fine quality you would normally expect for such a piece.

 MajorTom11 wrote:
Well, I instantly cancelled my subscription... or am attempting to anyways. Who knows what kind of run-around I will get, Itunes store is 'looking into it' as I could not do it automatically because my sub started in Sept, and over 3 months means I have to write in...

I believe another poster somewhere on the internet who had to cancel an iTunes subscription suggested you need to emphasise that this is not the product you subscribed to because of the iStore policy on refunding purchases. I'd quote for you, but I can't remember which forum I read it on (sorry).

 Baragash wrote:

I believe another poster somewhere on the internet who had to cancel an iTunes subscription suggested you need to emphasise that this is not the product you subscribed to because of the iStore policy on refunding purchases. I'd quote for you, but I can't remember which forum I read it on (sorry).

Yessir definitely took that track, emphasizing the subscription was transferred over to a completely different product without my permission, and that this was not in any way related to the magazine I had made my subscription to. Thanks for the advice though!

WayneTheGame wrote:
You know... I really wonder how many people would buy GW miniatures just to collect if there was no game. I can't imagine that people would buy more than one squad of most things just for collecting purposes; maybe the big monsters but is somebody buying just for collections going to buy 3 Tactical Squads or multiple vehicles?

I did. I do. I've played three games of 40k in my life, and those were all in the last 2 years... before that I was purely collecting, there is something impressive about the whole army together, and part of the motivation is to 'finish your set' pokemon type obsessiveness about it once you have invested a certain amount of time. In the back of your head you have the game in mind as a 'possibility' but really the pleasure of building an army is there for the hobbyist too I think. Eggroll over in painting and modelling has a prodigious BA army and has never played a game for example too.

For me this hobby was always about relaxing and spending a little downtime, I enjoy concentrating and focusing on details so minis were a good fit for that. If you aren't a golden demon painter an army is also appealing in that you can make a collection look more impressive as you see them from far as a whole, rather than doing display pieces which are individually scrutinized.

On top of that, there is no limit or reason we buy anything besides it looking cool too. We may indeed buy 3-4 tac squads... FW models... stuff that you can't actually take in an army list. Buy multiple models that are not good on the table or more than you can take in an FOC just because you like the look and nothing more. Using myself and Eggroll as an example again, I have a ridiculous amount of stuff that I could never field... tons of FW duplicates of units I already had generic GW of simply because it looks different. Untethered from the game or 'needing' anything for play, you may actually be more susceptible to impulse buys and multiples if you are just a collector/hobbyist.

Not sure how normal people like me are or aren't really but there are definitely people out there that come in firmly from the hobby side and may or may not get into the game.

If all else fails, contact your bank of credit card company and put a stop payment on the particular purchase. Then, let Apple/GW sort it out.


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 MajorTom11 wrote:
I did. I do. I've played three games of 40k in my life, and those were all in the last 2 years... before that I was purely collecting, there is something impressive about the whole army together, and part of the motivation is to 'finish your set' pokemon type obsessiveness about it once you have invested a certain amount of time. In the back of your head you have the game in mind as a 'possibility' but really the pleasure of building an army is there for the hobbyist too I think. Eggroll over in painting and modelling has a prodigious BA army and has never played a game for example too.

For me this hobby was always about relaxing and spending a little downtime, I enjoy concentrating and focusing on details so minis were a good fit for that. If you aren't a golden demon painter an army is also appealing in that you can make a collection look more impressive as you see them from far as a whole, rather than doing display pieces which are individually scrutinized.

Not sure how normal people like me are or aren't really but there are definitely people out there that come in firmly from the hobby side and may or may not get into the game.

Which is understandable, but that seems like the demographic that GW is trying to focus on, which doesn't make sense to me. Without the rules, there would be no need for the miniatures. I mean, Jes said it himself when his copy-paste response noted that the new WD is not for gamers. So, they are actively seeking the collectible/modeling demographic.

Sad thing is, even though you are their target demographic, they missed you too.

GW havent a leg to stand on with regard to refunding subscriptions as its entirely obvious Visions is not the product subscibed to

To my mind GW should have written / contacted every subsciber with an opt in or out or at least published the change in the last old style WD and given details of how to opt in or out

Yup, they did. I have not bought a mini from GW in over 2 years now... Partly out of being bored with their products and tactics, partly out of not having time having 2 kids in that period, and part because I can no longer justify buying anything when I have an insurmountable pile of minis already sitting on the shelf. Lots of reasons... I think I would be more motivated to continue hobbying had I less stuff staring at me unfinished all the time to be honest. The swarm purchasing they want to happen is a bad thing IMO, as well as the size of the games... it makes the investment in time and money pretty incredible, and unfeasable for the majority I would imagine at this point.

From the perspective of a 40k player (I stopped around 2003) who just recently got back into the game, mostly to paint, I have about 2000pts worth of models that I have bought either through Ebay or local classified ads. Not one single penny has been given to GW. Why? Ridiculous prices, of course. Does it make me giddy that the company whose product I'm buying isn't profiting from my purchases? Not at all, but my guilt isn't so great that I'm willing to throw double or even triple the amount I've spent on my army away on a greedy corporation. If GW was willing to cut prices by 30-40%, then yes, I would be much more motivated to buy directly from them, and most likely multiple armies. Will it ever happen? Hah!

 Dynamix wrote:
GW havent a leg to stand on with regard to refunding subscriptions as its entirely obvious Visions is not the product subscibed to

To my mind GW should have written / contacted every subsciber with an opt in or out or at least published the change in the last old style WD and given details of how to opt in or out

Yep that was also part of my complaint to apple, I find what GW did extremely unsavoury as I had no say in it, and as a result I am the one who has to spend my time chasing down a cancellation. That is not customer service, in fact, it is the opposite. I pointed out to Apple that this company was using their service to enact underhanded sales tactics at the expense of the customer, and they should make sure this kind of shenanigan cannot take place...

 Kroothawk wrote:

Hey look how the tabletop market is struggling
And 60 Mio $ is local coffee shop peanuts.
But listen what this CEO from Caterpillar has to say about the tabletop gaming market

When the economy slows people lose their jobs which has a ripple effect through the economy. Under that kind of scenario people are left with less disposable income and wont have a choice but to spend less. We saw the same thing in 2001 and 2008.. Recessions are cyclical and do impact companies like GW.

 Alpharius wrote:
Economists can, apparently, act just like Statisticians!

Now, I'm not sure what dereksatkinson is up too, or what his true motivation is

I am trying to raise the level of the discussion above what you'd find on the comments section of a youtube video. Ah yes.. my nefarious plan has been foiled.

The question being raised was whether the problems in GW's financial reports were something specific to GW. My contention is that it's a problem for retail in general and the more we see retailers report, the more obvious it will be. If you go back to my intial posts about this, it was at the highs of the stock market and the Dow Jones industrial average has sold off 1000 points since. Maybe, just maybe I was onto something..




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 MajorTom11 wrote:

 Dynamix wrote:
GW havent a leg to stand on with regard to refunding subscriptions as its entirely obvious Visions is not the product subscibed to

To my mind GW should have written / contacted every subsciber with an opt in or out or at least published the change in the last old style WD and given details of how to opt in or out

Yep that was also part of my complaint to apple, I find what GW did extremely unsavoury as I had no say in it, and as a result I am the one who has to spend my time chasing down a cancellation. That is not customer service, in fact, it is the opposite. I pointed out to Apple that this company was using their service to enact underhanded sales tactics at the expense of the customer, and they should make sure this kind of shenanigan cannot take place...

Uh.. you are trying to cancel your subscription through a 3rd party vendor. If you sign up for your cell phone provider (let's say T-mobile) at best buy, do you honestly expect you'll need to contact best buy to cancel your subscription 3 months later? Ofcourse not. you shouldn't be expecting that.

GW itself specifically refers you to Apple for cancellation or problems with digital products. So I expect nothing, just doing what I'm told.

dereksatkinson wrote:

The question being raised was whether the problems in GW's financial reports were something specific to GW. My contention is that it's a problem for retail in general

Unless that retail in general are other miniature war gaming companies (or Kickstarter), in which case you are very fast in dismissing their reports of growth.

But like Kroothawk said, you must be obviously right in your analysis, because a Decorating Company's director said so!

And people wonder why Wall Street crashed in 2008, with such sharp analysis like the one that you are displaying here!

dereksatkinson wrote:
Uh.. you are trying to cancel your subscription through a 3rd party vendor. If you sign up for your cell phone provider (let's say T-mobile) at best buy, do you honestly expect you'll need to contact best buy to cancel your subscription 3 months later? Ofcourse not. you shouldn't be expecting that.

Yes, if Best Buy is handling the billing, which Apple is. The phone analogy is bad because Best Buy doesn't handle the billing once the phone goes out the door; it is handled by the service provider, via their software and websites, not Best Buys.

PhantomViper wrote:
And people wonder why Wall Street crashed in 2008, with such sharp analysis like the one that you are displaying here!

Umm.. Wall Street didn't crash, the stock market did. Wall Street is actually primarily the bond market, which did ridiculously well (rates went much lower) and the debt market is about 10 times the size of the stock market.. When people talk about "Wall Street", it is because that is the primary place companies go to get financing to grow their business.. And this is why I have a problem with the stuff you guys are saying. You don't really know the basics.

Also.. The stock market crashes quite frequently because the public gets involved, acts irrationally and creates a bubble. People get emotional and throw their entire life savings into something to the point of "irrational exuberance" at which point we have a crash. Dot com companies in 2000-01 and housing in 2007-08.. In case you didn't quite get what I was saying earlier, I am saying we are seeing the same situation unfolding again.

If GW were to drop all rules and simply just produce miniatures then I would be done (maybe the odd FW purchase). That just goes to show you that their main plastic lines really aren't all that impressive. It was mentioned a few posts earlier, but there are other companies out there that make fantastic figures.

I would definitely like to see GW release an official format that focuses on the 750-1250 pt ranges. I've had a blast playing at the 1000 pt level and it would be even better with a few FoC restrictions and some customized deployment options. It would also be fantastic for new players as their cost of entry is cut in half and they would actually have some opponents willing to play at that level. Not to mention it is less overwhelming for a new player to only focus on an HQ, 2-3 squads and maybe a vehicle or 2 as opposed to 2000 pts worth staring them in the face.

Barfolomew wrote:

dereksatkinson wrote:
Uh.. you are trying to cancel your subscription through a 3rd party vendor. If you sign up for your cell phone provider (let's say T-mobile) at best buy, do you honestly expect you'll need to contact best buy to cancel your subscription 3 months later? Ofcourse not. you shouldn't be expecting that.

Yes, if Best Buy is handling the billing, which Apple is. The phone analogy is bad because Best Buy doesn't handle the billing once the phone goes out the door; it is handled by the service provider, via their software and websites, not Best Buys.

3rd party vendors usually don't handle things after 30 days for most retailers. Unless you are talking costco which pretty much bends over for their customers when doing returns, I usually expect to have to go to the manufacturer.

dereksatkinson wrote:

Barfolomew wrote:

dereksatkinson wrote:
Uh.. you are trying to cancel your subscription through a 3rd party vendor. If you sign up for your cell phone provider (let's say T-mobile) at best buy, do you honestly expect you'll need to contact best buy to cancel your subscription 3 months later? Ofcourse not. you shouldn't be expecting that.

Yes, if Best Buy is handling the billing, which Apple is. The phone analogy is bad because Best Buy doesn't handle the billing once the phone goes out the door; it is handled by the service provider, via their software and websites, not Best Buys.

3rd party vendors usually don't handle things after 30 days for most retailers. Unless you are talking costco which pretty much bends over for their customers when doing returns, I usually expect to have to go to the manufacturer.

I repeat Derek, GW itself specifically directs you to deal with Apple in regards to digital products cancellations. This is not up for debate or conjecture, that is how it works.

dereksatkinson wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:
And people wonder why Wall Street crashed in 2008, with such sharp analysis like the one that you are displaying here!

Umm.. Wall Street didn't crash, the stock market did. Wall Street is actually primarily the bond market, which did ridiculously well (rates went much lower) and the debt market is about 10 times the size of the stock market.. When people talk about "Wall Street", it is because that is the primary place companies go to get financing to grow their business.. And this is why I have a problem with the stuff you guys are saying. You don't really know the basics.

Also.. The stock market crashes quite frequently because the public gets involved, acts irrationally and creates a bubble. People get emotional and throw their entire life savings into something to the point of "irrational exuberance" at which point we have a crash. Dot com companies in 2000-01 and housing in 2007-08.. In case you didn't quite get what I was saying earlier, I am saying we are seeing the same situation unfolding again.

Yeah, sorry pal, the moment you try blaming the various financial crises on the general public, you lose any shreds of credibility you might otherwise have had.

Hmmm, some investor bought shares for £157.35k today. Other than that mostly automated buys and sells.

dereksatkinson wrote:
I am trying to raise the level of the discussion above what you'd find on the comments section of a youtube video.

We were already aware how high you value your own opinion and how much you despise the opinion of us mere mortals here on Dakka
Doesn't make your arguments more logical though.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Hmmm, some investor bought shares for £157.35k today.

Or a market maker took down those shares.. or a short seller covered their position.. You can draw no conclusions from a single print.

 Kroothawk wrote:
We were already aware how high you value your own opinion and how much you despise the opinion of us mere mortals here on Dakka
Doesn't make your arguments more logical though.

The fact that's i'm actually using something other than anecdotal evidence to support my claim makes it much more logical.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yodhrin wrote:
Yeah, sorry pal, the moment you try blaming the various financial crises on the general public, you lose any shreds of credibility you might otherwise have had.

Ah.. so all those people flipping houses were doing it at the behest of certified financial planners? Please.. People were trying to get rich without working. It's the bubble mentality.