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I was thinking about chaos sorcerers, they seem pretty weak. They uses to be I5 I think and with a mark of slaanesh they could stick that instant death weapon into the baddest enemy character....

Now? Well, only initiative 4 which is a bummer and if your not careful can be awfully expensive for a guy who only has two wounds and attacks etc. I was really wondering if there was a way, without a stupid price tag, to make that Force Weapon work it. Also, what's the best choice if you went with a mark? The gods powers? Or the generic ones? I am just really confused.

I would say no mark would be good, just to go for Biomancy or telepathy (invisibility). Throw him on a bike, and get your Nurge Bikes a 2+ cover save

That sir, is brilliant.

 Solomongrundy wrote:
I would say no mark would be good, just to go for Biomancy or telepathy (prescience and invisibility). Throw him on a bike, and get your Nurge Bikes a 2+ cover save

Prescience is in divination, and CSM don't have access to that.

Yeah, invisibility rules. So does lots of stuff. You can make him an MC killer if you want with the force weapon and biomancy, but he really shines as a support character.

That maulerfiend... pssh! A flimsy AV12 vehicle, that's going to be killed before it...

wait... it gets a 2+ cover save? And then it ignores terrain as it moves 12" forwards, and then rerolls the lowest dice on its charge roll and then in close combat I can only hit it on 5's and it has a 5++ and rerolls failed to-hits and to wounds with free melta hits? Stop, please stop! Oh gods, invisible maulerfiend! Somebody save me!

And that's just one power making a less useful unit a uber unit. You can also make good units stupid good units (invisible helldrake you say?), and you can also do a bunch of disruptive things like take that 20-man unit of CSM that's running away and stop them from running and give them fearless, or lower that MC's T a little bit so that your khorne berzerkers go from not being able to hurt it to eviscerating it to a bloody pulp.

You don't get to choose the specifics of how a sorcerer will be able to help your army each game, but he's a fantastic support character, and really embodies what an HQ choice is sort of supposed to be.

The only problem with the sorcerer is that, while it is a very good HQ, the CSM codex has several truly great HQs. Once you put in a juggerlord and huron, you're going to have to make a pretty tough choice about which one you cut out so that you can put a sorcerer back in.

 BarBoBot wrote:

 Solomongrundy wrote:
I would say no mark would be good, just to go for Biomancy or telepathy (prescience and invisibility). Throw him on a bike, and get your Nurge Bikes a 2+ cover save

Prescience is in divination, and CSM don't have access to that.

Yea it was my bad, was thinking of Herald of Tzeentch :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That is one problem I am having now actually. I want to use Typhus and stick in a no mark sorcerer on a bike with a BBoS but its tough for with only 1750pts to work with. (league at local store)

Sorcerors are very *good*. They are better than SM librarians IMO but I hardly ever take them because Chaos Lords are just way better. I've been taking both a Juggerlord and Nurgle biker Lord and loving every second of it. There's just not much space for a Sorc. However, like everybody is saying, a ML3 with no marks and full telepathy is pretty much a baby Be'Lakor.

I run a Chaos Sorcerer. he runs my Night lords. i like that he can have a Force Sword quite a bit. that thing is very important when you just HAVE to kill that damn Tervigon or some other unit that is just otherwise too deadly to handle. one lucky hit is all ya' need.

One of the things that's neat about a sorcerer as well is that he can take all of the wargear.

This lets you do lord-light beastsick enhancing to that bike or terminator squad, but, once again, he can also rescue what might otherwise be terrible squads from oblivion.

Warp talons, for example, are crummy, but if the army is huron and a jump pack sorc and a pack of warp talons, now they suddenly become scary. Now they can sometimes get a turn 1 charge, thanks to huron. If you draw invisibility, you're now looking at a squad with a 3+/5++ stealthed and shrouded that goes into close combat with Ap3 shred weapons that hit everything on 3's and can only be hit on 5's, with a possibly iron-armed force weapon to back them up. That goes from total waste of points to you getting to point at one of your opponent's non-vehicular units at the beginning of the game and say "those guys aren't going to be playing this game".

Likewise, can you imagine MoN terminators with FNP? or khorne berzerkers with +D3 I and fleet? Or a land raider with it will not die?

They're never as beaty as a chaos lord, but their ability to force multiply is only as limited as your creativity.

Sigil, Mark of your Choice & a bike comes out at 120 points.

Give him MoT for a 3+ invul. Or MoN for T6.

With burning brand he is still a mere 150 points & cant be doubled out with MoN.

Dont want the brand? Give him another mastery level so he's survivable *and* has access to biomancy & telepathy goodness.

My Sorcerer is probabaly horibly over costed but i find he works so well.

Termie armore Force axe + black mace. usually MoT. leads a large blob of Termies

between all my Oblits and other large targets the survive pretty well. Huron helps a ton

so yes deffinatly secondary HQ

Sorcs are really good. Biomancy or telepathy are usually the best options. Go ml 3 you won't regret it. He can make your t6 bikers or spawns get fnp. He can shoot down an enemy squad with enemie's riptide with puppet mastery. I've had a game where a hammerhead killed 10 firewarriors with submunition. And that actually won me the match. He can cast enfeeble on something tough and scary so you can run over it with your pesky cultists. All in all, i feel he has even more utility than a lord. And he's a respectable fighter in mellee also. And very flexible. Personally i prefer a sorc over a daemon prince and even over a lord in most cases. Don't forget - he provides a better denny the witch roll either.

I play death guard a lot more recently and my Nurgle bikers are fantastic multi role things, nids can't hurt them before I burn their face off and neither can IG before they say bye bye to a Russ or a chimera or two

To me, Telepathy would help me out more, I like Puppet Master, hallucination, the primaris is great if your sorcerer has a jump pack or a bike. Because most likely that guy is gonna die , they're all great so thanks guys

Those few points you save on taking a Sorcerer vs a Lord might be just what you need to fit in, say, two Heldrakes at 500 points.

Jump-packing around and casting invisibility is also nice if you don't want to pay for Be'Lakor

Mind if I ask but what or who is Be'Lakor?

 TechmarineNic wrote:
Mind if I ask but what or who is Be'Lakor?

Eternal Warrior Daemon Prince with Shrouded who knows all the telepathy powers (so always gets Invisibility and puppet master). He is in a dataslate:
http://www.blacklibrary.com/games-workshop-digital-editions/Dataslate-Belakor.html


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One load out for Sorcerers some people might have overlooked is:
Palanquin of Nurgle can help offlay the 2W problem but is a bit spendy:
145 points for MoN,Palaquin,Sigil, Blight Grenades

That goes up to 210 if you take max psyker levels and spell familiar.

He is pretty boss at killing stuff that isn't S10 (so all MC), comes down to preference whether you'd rather have speed and T6 or double the wounds, +1 A and T5.

One of the big let downs vs Lords is that they aren't fearless so even if you do swing your axe around murdering stuff, the 10-15 cultists that also get mown down by the enemies expensive MEQ will make you run away where a lord would have another couple of turns swinging (assuming your properly positioned / have champion to face challenges).

Sorc's just don't have the stat line to make me want to put him in cc (or pay to give him cc gear). They used to only be down 1 WS compared to a lord, now they are down 1 WS, I, W, and A. Best just to play to his strength which is supporting with psychic powers.

I don't even consider running them without ML3 and a spell fiend. The marks themselves would be ok except they make you take a codex power which are mostly shooty powers. Shooty powers just don't cut it for me compared to the support offered by telep and bio.

Sure a 3++ sounds tasty but look at the tzeentch powers. Is there a worse table out there? 3 out of the 4 I would never cast let alone want to roll them

I have found the best loadout to be: no marks, sigil, bike, force axe, ML3, spell familiar: 170 points. Then roll on either telepathy or biomancy. The only problem is that's a lot invested into 2 wounds. As stated before he should avoid combat whenever possible for this reason.

Since I'm avoiding combat I'll often leave the sigil out too. Its expensive and for an IC is primarily only used in CC.

Primarily, but not exclusively, I've definitely made good use of lords and sorcerers with a 4++ combined with LoS! to shield the remnants of a wounded squad from the tail end of shooting phases before. If it's a matter of two plasma gun hits killing two berzerkers, or two plasma gun hits putting a single wound on Huron, I know which I'd usually take.

Especially if your sorcerer gets leech life. I kind of like that nurgle palanquin biomancy sorcerer idea.

I am a huge fan of the black legion last memory max psyker level sorcerer. I usually run him in terminator armour to drop down with my 9-12 oblits. He pops a 2-3 warp charge nova ensuring the last memory goes off with his spell familiar.

Alternatively I sometimes use him on a bike attached to bikers or spawn with a similar setup but perhaps an invulnerable save added to help him survive.

The regular sorcerer is okay but I usually find that after my mandatory marked lord to unlock cult troops I would much rather have Be'Lakor, a Daemon Prince, or a named character. The CSM HQ slot is very busy with good choices. What works well is entirely dependent on what you want to run with the rest of your list.

I think the Slaanrsh powers are pretty respectable, especially if he's hanging out with a bunch of sonicblasters and blastmasters. Or a doom siren bearing combat squad of noisemarines.

I always take a Sorceror as warlord. Lords get themselved killed far too often in challenges and the Sorceror is a great buff/debuff support, he can also bunker somewhere with an icon as he's the only non-fearless HQ.

Absolutely agree with ansacs, Black Legion supplement only makes Sorcerors more fun, Last Memory (if you can get it off) is pretty awesome.

 ansacs wrote:
I am a huge fan of the black legion last memory max psyker level sorcerer. I usually run him in terminator armour to drop down with my 9-12 oblits. He pops a 2-3 warp charge nova ensuring the last memory goes off with his spell familiar.

Alternatively I sometimes use him on a bike attached to bikers or spawn with a similar setup but perhaps an invulnerable save added to help him survive.

The regular sorcerer is okay but I usually find that after my mandatory marked lord to unlock cult troops I would much rather have Be'Lakor, a Daemon Prince, or a named character. The CSM HQ slot is very busy with good choices. What works well is entirely dependent on what you want to run with the rest of your list.

Yeah i am a big fan of the Black Legion now as well. i just JUST started using that Codex and it is cool on multiple frontsd. i am going to blog on it next actually.

 Jancoran wrote:
Yeah i am a big fan of the Black Legion now as well. i just JUST started using that Codex and it is cool on multiple frontsd. i am going to blog on it next actually.

Nice, I would be interested in that as I have not gotten a chance to play with 70%+ of that supplement. I don't have Abadon or chosen and with all the new releases my time is pretty thin on any one army.

The chosen troops looks like it could have some pretty cool applications. The rerollable 3++ invulnerable you can get on a lord or DP also seems like it could be good.

As someone working continuously to make Chaos Space Marines good as a primary detachment, I believe that the Sorcerer is the linchpin to making one viable.
I've been running dual Sorcerers on Bikes with my fast-assault list to great effect. Each one is an unmarked level 3 with familiar running with 5 Nurgle Spawn each. One has the burning brand, because hey, it's awesome.
Now, you've got options. You have six rolls on two amazing charts: Biomancy and Telepathy. Endurance, Invisibility, Enfeeble, Dominate, Terrify, Hallucination... I'm in Chaos Heaven! So not that 17 T6 (or 34 if you count both squads!) wounds wasn't enough, how about give them IWND, Stealth, Shrouding and FNP? Oh, and you usually deny on a 4+!
I consider the Sorcerers the only thing keeping me actually competitive. Sure, a single Heldrake carries its weight and then some, but he often receives too much credit for why my list is performing. Just as Tzeentch would have it...

The biggest issue with Sorcerers is the worst Chaos Marine psychic discipline is the one that's supposed to be known for sorcerers. The Tzeentch Table is pretty bad for an HQ unit. Doombolt is the only usable power on it which is a damn shame.

Nurgle Sorcerers are pretty awesome. No one has mentioned it yet, but they are pretty great on a Palanquin. As long as you're not running into Monstrous Creatures or S10 attacks, adding that many more wounds to a Sorcerer is very nice. I feel like Lords are better off on a bike for that T6 but a Sorcerer with the powers you can potentially roll is fine at T5 with two more wounds.

The Nurgle powers are also pretty good. I've seen a biker sorcerer use it to pretty devastating effects before. Plague Wind is also a really solid ability if you're facing, say, Wraithguard Eldar, or anyone in TEQ.

The Slaanesh powers are easily the best in this codex, though, as it turns your sorcerer into a long-rage death machine that also simultaneously buffs the units you're likely to bring with a Slaanesh army.

And I can't believe it hadn't been mentioned yet, but everyone forgets about Disc of Tzeentch. Jetbikes also gives +1 toughness to the profile of the unit, guys. If you're going Tzeentch, it's really great for that sorcerer as +1 attack is going to be more useful to him than a TL Boltgun, and it allows you to get close for any short ranged Maledictions/Witchfires then jet bike assault back to relative safety should that be the prudent move.

I'd been meaning to make a DoT sorcerer utilizing Black Legion rules so I could get that 3++ with rerollable 1s and still remain T4. Drop a Force Axe on that dude, roll the two powers you can on Biomancy, let him do work.

 SRSFACE wrote:
The biggest issue with Sorcerers is the worst Chaos Marine psychic discipline is the one that's supposed to be known for sorcerers. The Tzeentch Table is pretty bad for an HQ unit. Doombolt is the only usable power on it which is a damn shame.

It really is bad. Look at some numbers for the primaris, its practically a 25 pt bolter with gets hot.

The Slaanesh powers are easily the best in this codex, though, as it turns your sorcerer into a long-rage death machine that also simultaneously buffs the units you're likely to bring with a Slaanesh army.

Slaanesh powers are alright, but my problem there is if you want to get your money's worth out of symphony you have to take noise marines. Ok I can deal with that, but if you want to take noise marines you have to take a Slaanesh Lord to make them troops. This representative of a larger issue with the codex; picking one option (MoS for a sorc) dictates half your army list.

it allows you to get close for any short ranged Maledictions/Witchfires then jet bike assault back to relative safety should that be the prudent move.

Only Eldar jetbikes can move in assault phase right?

I haven't tried much with nurgle yet, the pretty short ranges or giving my enemy shrouded just didn't seem good but I'll give them a shot sometime in the future.

You're right about the assault move. Don't know why I thought all jetbikes had it. Still, I prefer a Tzeentch sorcerer at least to be on a Disc than a bike.

Also disagree with the notion you "have to take a lord to unlock them as troops." People have been saying this for forever, and I don't get it. Are your elites slots really valuable to you in a Chaos Space Marines codex? Here I was thinking it was kind of a wasted slot choice because the best unit in it outside of the god troops are Terminators. A lord just makes the Noise Marines a scoring, which if you're planning on syncing with Slaanesh sorcery powers, they are going to be more killy anyway.

As for "giving enemies shrouded," that lasts all of 1 turn if you manage to roll that on them. It's not a big deal, and considering all the other things Gift of Contagion does, the squad you drop it on should theoretically be the target of an assault. Shrouded does jack all in assault, and -1A or -1S is clearly designed as things to benefit you in an assault against that unit. And if you're super stressing about enemies possibly gaining a minor benefit from your malediction, bring Flamers or Heavy Flamers.

And more importantly, for Gift of Contagion; as a malediction it can be targeted on units engaged in CC.
If you end up giving the unit your CSM assault unit are attacking Shrouded, who cares? They're stuck in CC so can't be shot, and are suddenly less good at CC to boot.

My first weekend of ever playing Warhammer 40K I started out with my CSM from Dark Vengeance, +1 box of regular CSM kitted as Noise Marines, and a Sorc. Without knowing the game and only 3 practice matches to learn the rules, I made it to 3rd place at a 1000pt tourney in my local Meta. (Lost to experienced Space Wolf & Tau players.)
Noise Marines & that pretty pretty Slaanesh-marked Sorcerer carried the rest of the games for me. Managed to roll Symphony of Pain and Invisibility several consecutive matches.
The Sorcerer is one hell of a force multiplier, and I find often underestimated by most opponents.

I've yet to be disappointed by any flavour or kit of Sorcerer.
My only (personal) issue is people throwing the Burning Brand on 'em. They're basically guaranteed to roll a witchfire, it feels like a waste of either 25 or 30pts for whichever you're not actively shooting that phase.
Thoughts? I'd like to hear why people play 'em that way!