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Are there specific descriptions in novels on how cunning and smart the main races of 40k are?

Tau are described to often outsmart Imperial commanders, holding off much-larger forces with smaller but better-coordinated forces commanded by seemingly smarted commanders, despite most of them dying of old age at 50.

The Imperium, despite holding millions of worlds, haven't managed to develop any technology on the same level as what they came up with before the Emperor was struck down. Chaos has had 10,000 years for the Dark Mechanicum to work without interference, and the best they came up with was the Obliterator virus, which they can't really claim most of the credit for.

The Eldar without the Webways (which they didn't create) seem to be worse off in most ways to the IoM... and almost every race would be crippled without 'technology' based on the Warp.

Tau, in contrast, were using spears 7,00 years before the current 40k date, and now they're fielding infantry guns stronger than any other race's standard issue... despite having an average lifespan much shorter than any other race's. Given how quickly Tau have to learn anything in order to accomplish things, is it fair to say Tau are, on average, much swifter learners than any of the other 40k races?

Tau are up there but I'm pretty sure the Necrontyr were a whole class above.

Eldar do rely on the warp but what they have done with it is truly amazing and the weapons/technology they had before the arrival of Slaneesh was something to behold.

Orks are cunning and get catch commanders off guard who underestimate them but Tau don't seem to have this problem.

Tyranids are not really rateable on an intelligence scale.

As a whole it would probable be something like this:

Technology (Current):
Necrons (Necrontyr)
Eldar
Tau
Humans (Dark Age tech would supersede the Tau)
Kroot

Tactics:
Necrons
Tau
Eldar
Humans
Kroot

Orks and Tyranids are smart and down right stupid in their own way so I'm not going to rate them against the others. It is worth noting that while Tau obliterate Orks in most confrontations, Necrons struggle with them.

Hell, 7,000 of our own years ago, WE as a race were still chucking pointy sticks around.

We've had powered flight for a bit over a century and even put men on our primary satellite (not to mention the scores of other crap we've put in orbit as well).

The Tau united to a common cause. Humanity was still busy learning newer and better ways to blow the crap out of each other 10,000 years before current game year.

Orcs have bestial cunning and that is about it. They have enough rudimentary intelligence to not shoot at tanks with a slugga, but to instead use a bigga gun. Common sense isn't really a strong point as made evident by the sheer amount of idiotic (or insanely clever) things they willingly do.

Whatever mind controls the Tyranids is without a doubt extremely intelligent and synapse creatures have shown themselves to be fearfully cunning. Just because their ways are extremely alien doesn't mean they lack intelligence.

The Necron have without a doubt the most advanced technology, absolutely leagues above anything the Tau have at the moment. However that stems from the aid they got from the C'Tan, not the necrontyr race itself. And I am not aware of them advancing absolutely at all technologically since they destroyed the C'Tan and went to sleep...

 Mavlun wrote:
The Necron have without a doubt the most advanced technology, absolutely leagues above anything the Tau have at the moment. However that stems from the aid they got from the C'Tan, not the necrontyr race itself. And I am not aware of them advancing absolutely at all technologically since they destroyed the C'Tan and went to sleep...

Yeah, but the necrons have bee around forever... the Tau are still very young.

How smart are individual necrons?

From best to worst I reckon it's something like this:

- Eldar/ Necrons (their lords anyway)
- Tau
- Space Marines
- Humans
- Tyranids
- Orks

 Mavlun wrote:
The Necron have without a doubt the most advanced technology, absolutely leagues above anything the Tau have at the moment. However that stems from the aid they got from the C'Tan, not the necrontyr race itself. And I am not aware of them advancing absolutely at all technologically since they destroyed the C'Tan and went to sleep...

Actually, Necrons had most of their technology before they contacted the C'tan.

In Oldcron fluff, they were just about pre-FTL when they contacted the C'tan, only held back by their foreshortened lifespans.

In Newcron fluff, they had an FTL empire spanning half the galaxy before they contacted the C'tan, and only spoke to the C'tan in order to get a trump card against the Eldar when their super-tech wasn't enough to overcome the Eldar warp powers.

EmpNortonII wrote:

 Mavlun wrote:
The Necron have without a doubt the most advanced technology, absolutely leagues above anything the Tau have at the moment. However that stems from the aid they got from the C'Tan, not the necrontyr race itself. And I am not aware of them advancing absolutely at all technologically since they destroyed the C'Tan and went to sleep...

Yeah, but the necrons have bee around forever... the Tau are still very young.

How smart are individual necrons?

Individual inteligencence outside of the ruling class is not needed, their lords are wise beyound any mortal and knows all there is to know about war. and hence they can eliminate the need for thinking rank and file, this also applyes to the Tyraninds that takes it to a new level, with their base line organisems completly devoid of a self preservation need and only driven b the will of the hive mind and their own feral and quite vicious instincts.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Mavlun wrote:
The Necron have without a doubt the most advanced technology, absolutely leagues above anything the Tau have at the moment. However that stems from the aid they got from the C'Tan, not the necrontyr race itself. And I am not aware of them advancing absolutely at all technologically since they destroyed the C'Tan and went to sleep...

Actually, Necrons had most of their technology before they contacted the C'tan.

In Oldcron fluff, they were just about pre-FTL when they contacted the C'tan, only held back by their foreshortened lifespans.

In Newcron fluff, they had an FTL empire spanning half the galaxy before they contacted the C'tan, and only spoke to the C'tan in order to get a trump card against the Eldar when their super-tech wasn't enough to overcome the Eldar warp powers.

Exactly so. The only technology that the Necrons received from the C'tan in the current fluff, is the Knowledge on Bio-transference. It was Illuminor Szeras who put that knowledge into actual application.

 Sasori wrote:

Exactly so. The only technology that the Necrons received from the C'tan in the current fluff, is the Knowledge on Bio-transference. It was Illuminor Szeras who put that knowledge into actual application.

One of the C'tan in particular (the Flayer, I think?) is said to have greatly aided gaining access to the Webway via Dolmen Gates.

I think for tau you do have to divide it among that castes for their particular forte. For example I'm sure the fire caste warriors knows how their weapons work, just not as well as earth caste engineers (think a soldier compared to a munitions expert).
Fire: Tactically smart, battle planning.
Earth: Engineering, how stuff works,ect.
Water: Languages and cultures, debating, treaties ect.
Air: Navigation, warp space, ect.

Those Human guys are idiots, that much I know.

 Banzaimash wrote:
From best to worst I reckon it's something like this:

- Eldar/ Necrons (their lords anyway)
- Tau
- Space Marines
- Humans
- Tyranids
- Orks

Space Marines do not have any implants that boost their mental capabilities. Their bodies are heavily augmented but their minds do not have any advantage over a regular human mind. They do have auto-senses in their armour which helps to boost their comprehension of battlefield data but I wouldn't say your average Marine will be 'smarter' than the average human. I'd personally suggest, nothing really to back this up it's just my personal thought, that due to the massive amount of unnatural changes their bodies go through over the years to become a fully-fledged Marine their mental capacities may be hindered as their mind struggles to deal with the physical and physiological changes as well as to learn everything a Marine is taught whilst in training.

In regards to intelligence; I see, at least an appearance of a total lack of progress in millions of years.

It sometimes seems like they were given their technology by the old ones. Necrons have been sleeping, and the spelfs had to have similar tech to hang with them,

 Banzaimash wrote:
From best to worst I reckon it's something like this:

- Eldar/ Necrons (their lords anyway)
- Tau
- Space Marines
- Humans
- Tyranids
- Orks

Really? I mean, the Eldar and Necron lords have a lot of experience and a lot of knowledge, but what evidence do we have to suggest they're good at quick thinking, innovating, or original thought? Didn't the smartest smarty Eldar of all time get out-thought by the Armless Wonder? Doesn't Farsight have far more tactical insight- especially against Orks, which are marked by being incredibly cunning of a simple sort- than the oldest of old Necrons?

Zahndrekh is a tactical genius who supposedly rivals Creed.

Crypteks are the Necron 'scientist caste'. Szeras is the greatest of the Harbingers of Destruction. Toholk is the greatest of the Harbingers of Eternity... or maybe Orikan is, they can't quite agree.

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:

 Banzaimash wrote:
From best to worst I reckon it's something like this:

- Eldar/ Necrons (their lords anyway)
- Tau
- Space Marines
- Humans
- Tyranids
- Orks

Space Marines do not have any implants that boost their mental capabilities. Their bodies are heavily augmented but their minds do not have any advantage over a regular human mind. They do have auto-senses in their armour which helps to boost their comprehension of battlefield data but I wouldn't say your average Marine will be 'smarter' than the average human. I'd personally suggest, nothing really to back this up it's just my personal thought, that due to the massive amount of unnatural changes their bodies go through over the years to become a fully-fledged Marine their mental capacities may be hindered as their mind struggles to deal with the physical and physiological changes as well as to learn everything a Marine is taught whilst in training.

It's noted that Marines all have eidetic memories, but no particular ability to process or analyze those memories, though it is implied that those who are on the track for a command position either have the ability, or in some way obtain the ability, to perform analysis and processing of that data.

Necrons and Eldar have the best technology, but it's hard to use that advancement to quantify their intelligence because we have no idea how long it took for them to reach their technological peaks. Necrons have some really fancy tech, but if it took them 800 thousand years to get there.... well... not quite as impressive on an individual scale.

The Tau take the cake, thus far imo. They've reached a tech-level that puts them on equal war-footing with every race in the Galaxy (not counting numbers, Tau are logistically too weak to hang with any of the heavy-hitters) in quantitatively less time than any other faction.

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:

 Banzaimash wrote:
From best to worst I reckon it's something like this:

- Eldar/ Necrons (their lords anyway)
- Tau
- Space Marines
- Humans
- Tyranids
- Orks

Space Marines do not have any implants that boost their mental capabilities. Their bodies are heavily augmented but their minds do not have any advantage over a regular human mind. They do have auto-senses in their armour which helps to boost their comprehension of battlefield data but I wouldn't say your average Marine will be 'smarter' than the average human. I'd personally suggest, nothing really to back this up it's just my personal thought, that due to the massive amount of unnatural changes their bodies go through over the years to become a fully-fledged Marine their mental capacities may be hindered as their mind struggles to deal with the physical and physiological changes as well as to learn everything a Marine is taught whilst in training.

But then you also have to think that all Space Marines spend hundreds of hours studying the codex, studying at the Librarium, going over texts and such. Each Marine is trained to be fully battle capable, and to be fully battle capable they need to be aware of every single thing that is going on, be able to predict enemy movements, friendly movements. I'd say that Marines are smart in a different way to humans. Humans might be smart, but Marines have street smarts...
If that makes any sense

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:

 Banzaimash wrote:
From best to worst I reckon it's something like this:

- Eldar/ Necrons (their lords anyway)
- Tau
- Space Marines
- Humans
- Tyranids
- Orks

Space Marines do not have any implants that boost their mental capabilities. Their bodies are heavily augmented but their minds do not have any advantage over a regular human mind. They do have auto-senses in their armour which helps to boost their comprehension of battlefield data but I wouldn't say your average Marine will be 'smarter' than the average human. I'd personally suggest, nothing really to back this up it's just my personal thought, that due to the massive amount of unnatural changes their bodies go through over the years to become a fully-fledged Marine their mental capacities may be hindered as their mind struggles to deal with the physical and physiological changes as well as to learn everything a Marine is taught whilst in training.

But then you also have to think that all Space Marines spend hundreds of hours studying the codex, studying at the Librarium, going over texts and such. Each Marine is trained to be fully battle capable, and to be fully battle capable they need to be aware of every single thing that is going on, be able to predict enemy movements, friendly movements. I'd say that Marines are smart in a different way to humans. Humans might be smart, but Marines have street smarts...
If that makes any sense

Space marines are smart in different ways Some Marines are smart in the way they pursue a specific style of warfare to its perfection (Mantis Warriors). Some Marines are smart in the way they can analyze the way their enemies fight and use that to craft new strategies to crush their enemies with minimal casualties and maximum victims (Carcharodons Astra). Some Marines are smart in the manner that Termagaunts are smart (Minotaurs).

Mantis Warriors: We've done this before on a thousand worlds.
Carcharodons: We've lost a few marines, but now we know how to beat them!
Minotaurs: HURR HURR SMUSH THEM WITH OUR BIG WEAPONS

Well, Space Marines are, by and large, a collection of a thousand or so Dudebros, so... basically that, yes.

I thought SM to be above regular humans predominantly because of the combined factors of them being able to accrue centuries rather than decades of experience and the fact that, with the exception of extreme codex-huggers, they're encouraged to think for themselves to a certain extent, unlike the brainwashed masses. I should have perhaps put high ranking Imperial officials (Inquisitors) and SOB (although their more severe indoctrination I would argue means that while they are able tactical thinkers, they are limited to this- perhaps). Basically, the SM's relative freedom from the extreme indoctrination that occurs throughout the Imperium and their heightened propensity to learn and gain experience gives them an advantage over regular humans. Although I wonder whether I perceive SM to have greater intellectual freedom than they actually do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Necrons and Eldar have the best technology, but it's hard to use that advancement to quantify their intelligence because we have no idea how long it took for them to reach their technological peaks. Necrons have some really fancy tech, but if it took them 800 thousand years to get there.... well... not quite as impressive on an individual scale.

The Tau take the cake, thus far imo. They've reached a tech-level that puts them on equal war-footing with every race in the Galaxy (not counting numbers, Tau are logistically too weak to hang with any of the heavy-hitters) in quantitatively less time than any other faction.

Indeed the Tau have done an extraordinary amount in the short time they've been around. But whether this makes them more intellectual overall is questionable Technologically, militarily and politically they are up there, but their fundamental belief in the Greater Good and the use of the caste system means that on an individual level they're going to be pretty uninspired and dull personalities, because they don't think for themselves beyond their role in society. By comparison, the Eldar can match the Tau for tech and leadership, but have a highly developed culture and on a personal level, although limited by the Ways that they follow, can think for themselves. Freedom of the mind in this case is important for intellectual growth and the agility it brings. Also, the Eldar of all the races are perhaps more inclined to look at themselves in the mirror. Their failure as a race means that they are more prone to questioning and reasoning over what they're doing, rather than simply pushing blindly for a big goal. As for the Necron lords, they're just a bunch of millennia old evil genius's with reality-fething tech.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Mavlun wrote:
The Necron have without a doubt the most advanced technology, absolutely leagues above anything the Tau have at the moment. However that stems from the aid they got from the C'Tan, not the necrontyr race itself. And I am not aware of them advancing absolutely at all technologically since they destroyed the C'Tan and went to sleep...

Actually, Necrons had most of their technology before they contacted the C'tan.

In Oldcron fluff, they were just about pre-FTL when they contacted the C'tan, only held back by their foreshortened lifespans.

In Newcron fluff, they had an FTL empire spanning half the galaxy before they contacted the C'tan, and only spoke to the C'tan in order to get a trump card against the Eldar when their super-tech wasn't enough to overcome the Eldar warp powers.

Wut?

"Unable to find peace on their own planet, the Necrontyr blindly groped out towards other worlds. Using stasis-crypts aboard slow burning torch ships, they began to colonise other planets."
My original point was that without the C'Tan, there wouldn't have been any necrons at all in 40K, as it was the Deceiver that came up with the process of bio-transference (and also without the Burning C'Tan, they wouldn't have access to Dolmen Gates either). It's without a doubt that the necrontyr were still so far beyond current technology, it's not even funny. (fun fact: The celestial orrery was created before the War in Heaven)

 Mavlun wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Mavlun wrote:
The Necron have without a doubt the most advanced technology, absolutely leagues above anything the Tau have at the moment. However that stems from the aid they got from the C'Tan, not the necrontyr race itself. And I am not aware of them advancing absolutely at all technologically since they destroyed the C'Tan and went to sleep...

Actually, Necrons had most of their technology before they contacted the C'tan.

In Oldcron fluff, they were just about pre-FTL when they contacted the C'tan, only held back by their foreshortened lifespans.

In Newcron fluff, they had an FTL empire spanning half the galaxy before they contacted the C'tan, and only spoke to the C'tan in order to get a trump card against the Eldar when their super-tech wasn't enough to overcome the Eldar warp powers.

Wut?

"Unable to find peace on their own planet, the Necrontyr blindly groped out towards other worlds. Using stasis-crypts aboard slow burning torch ships, they began to colonise other planets."
My original point was that without the C'Tan, there wouldn't have been any necrons at all in 40K, as it was the Deceiver that came up with the process of bio-transference (and also without the Burning C'Tan, they wouldn't have access to Dolmen Gates either). It's without a doubt that the necrontyr were still so far beyond current technology, it's not even funny. (fun fact: The celestial orrery was created before the War in Heaven)

I'd also point out that the Necrons ended up such great masters of their technology (new and old), that not only does it appear to simply be magic, but they shattered their own gods.

By the new codex, the only thing that rivals the intelligence and tech of the Newcrons are the Eldar (especially Dark Eldar), and the Admech/Dark Mech. Necrons are simply nuts- they act like they came right out of Doctor Who.

 Mavlun wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Mavlun wrote:
The Necron have without a doubt the most advanced technology, absolutely leagues above anything the Tau have at the moment. However that stems from the aid they got from the C'Tan, not the necrontyr race itself. And I am not aware of them advancing absolutely at all technologically since they destroyed the C'Tan and went to sleep...

Actually, Necrons had most of their technology before they contacted the C'tan.

In Oldcron fluff, they were just about pre-FTL when they contacted the C'tan, only held back by their foreshortened lifespans.

In Newcron fluff, they had an FTL empire spanning half the galaxy before they contacted the C'tan, and only spoke to the C'tan in order to get a trump card against the Eldar when their super-tech wasn't enough to overcome the Eldar warp powers.

Wut?

"Unable to find peace on their own planet, the Necrontyr blindly groped out towards other worlds. Using stasis-crypts aboard slow burning torch ships, they began to colonise other planets."
My original point was that without the C'Tan, there wouldn't have been any necrons at all in 40K, as it was the Deceiver that came up with the process of bio-transference (and also without the Burning C'Tan, they wouldn't have access to Dolmen Gates either). It's without a doubt that the necrontyr were still so far beyond current technology, it's not even funny. (fun fact: The celestial orrery was created before the War in Heaven)

That quote, is from the VERY beginning of their empire. They had a Galaxy spanning empire LONG before the C'tan came to them.

The Necrontyr had far superior technology to the other races, long before they became the Necrons. The Necrontyr had superior technology to the Old ones, who were considered the only rival to them in the galaxy at the height of their empire.

They also had all of the developed technologies except their body before the C'tan.

Canoptek Constructs
Living Metal
Superior Navy
Dimensional mastery.

All of this and more. The Necontyr also only got the knowledge of how to perform bio-tansfer from the C'tan. Szeras is the one who actually made it happen, with Necrontyr Technology.

EDIT: Missed this one.

Really? I mean, the Eldar and Necron lords have a lot of experience and a lot of knowledge, but what evidence do we have to suggest they're good at quick thinking, innovating, or original thought? Didn't the smartest smarty Eldar of all time get out-thought by the Armless Wonder? Doesn't Farsight have far more tactical insight- especially against Orks, which are marked by being incredibly cunning of a simple sort- than the oldest of old Necrons?

Keep in mind, that Necrons are now machines, and the better bodies can process millions of outcomes and secnerios in a fraction of a fraction of a second. Of all the races, Necrons have quick thinking. We have that several crypteks that are still innovating in this day and age. Tolhok and Szeras are good examples of this. To innovate shows original thought.

Farsight really has nothing on Imotekh and Zahndrekh. He's better at Orks compared to Imotekh, but Imotekhs campaigns span entire sectors at a time. No one currently alive has shown the sheer tactical genius that Imotekh has.

Kutlakh has shown a brutal display of tactics, conquering over sixty planets in less than a hundred days. Not even crusade era Space Marines had this kind of track record.

Zahndrekh has shown to win against multiple factions so far, everything from Orks to Multiple space marine chapters.

Keep in mind, that the Necrons have been playing at intergalactic warfare much longer than anyone else. The fact that the now have the immortality and processing power of Machines has only enhanced this.

It sounds like there are a few areas people are arguing over, that might be simpler to look at individually:

Tech 'snapshot' (i.e. to look at it as of this moment)
Necron
Eldar
Tau
Imperium

Tech advancement (comparing it now to 1k years ago, 2k years ago etc to find how much it is advancing)
Tau
Eldar/Imperium (if i remember the Fall happened around the same time as the Horus Heresy, which marked the end of progress for both races)
Necron (It appears they have the same tech as they had millions of years ago)

Strategy and ability to learn/adapt
Tau
Necron
Eldar/Imperium

I put my own lists under each one, I wouldn't claim to know a great deal about specific stories and am only vaguely aware of how Necrons operate in fluff

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:

 Banzaimash wrote:
From best to worst I reckon it's something like this:

- Eldar/ Necrons (their lords anyway)
- Tau
- Space Marines
- Humans
- Tyranids
- Orks

Space Marines do not have any implants that boost their mental capabilities. Their bodies are heavily augmented but their minds do not have any advantage over a regular human mind. They do have auto-senses in their armour which helps to boost their comprehension of battlefield data but I wouldn't say your average Marine will be 'smarter' than the average human. I'd personally suggest, nothing really to back this up it's just my personal thought, that due to the massive amount of unnatural changes their bodies go through over the years to become a fully-fledged Marine their mental capacities may be hindered as their mind struggles to deal with the physical and physiological changes as well as to learn everything a Marine is taught whilst in training.

remember though, it's an average. the Marines are picked from the best and brightest a chapter can find...

meanwhile well..... think about how stupid your average person is

BrianDavion wrote:

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:

 Banzaimash wrote:
From best to worst I reckon it's something like this:

- Eldar/ Necrons (their lords anyway)
- Tau
- Space Marines
- Humans
- Tyranids
- Orks

Space Marines do not have any implants that boost their mental capabilities. Their bodies are heavily augmented but their minds do not have any advantage over a regular human mind. They do have auto-senses in their armour which helps to boost their comprehension of battlefield data but I wouldn't say your average Marine will be 'smarter' than the average human. I'd personally suggest, nothing really to back this up it's just my personal thought, that due to the massive amount of unnatural changes their bodies go through over the years to become a fully-fledged Marine their mental capacities may be hindered as their mind struggles to deal with the physical and physiological changes as well as to learn everything a Marine is taught whilst in training.

remember though, it's an average. the Marines are picked from the best and brightest a chapter can find...

meanwhile well..... think about how stupid your average person is

Marines tend to be from backwaters, actually.

I'd rate them thus:

Actual Intelligence

Eldar - they live long lives and experience many different things, and they are disciplined because of it.
Necrons - nothing beats the precision of robotic logic.
Tau - Tau live relatively short lives (40 or so years I believe) and yet can become master tacticians and excellent inventors in those short years. They are completely at odds with eldar, and yet the result is the same.
Humans - Despite humanity seeming to be a stupid, recidivist group of people in 40k, they're generally quite smart. Humans may be dumber than eldar, but they still manage to beat eldar.
Chaos - Chaos warlords tend to be passable in intelligence and excellent fighters, except maybe marines leaders. Chaos demons are next to mindless IMO.
Dark Eldar - are the image of insanity. They saw their entire realm destroyed by lust and decadence, and yet they continue to do it.
Tyranids - not expressly intelligent, but that's by design. The thinkers of 'nids are hugely intelligent, with the swarmlord's tactical genius far outstripping that of even eldar commanders. However, their grunts and monsters are stupid beyond compare, intentionally.
Orks - Aren't technically intelligent, but their intelligence is programmed - so mekboys know as much or more about technology than a marine techmarine might, while a painboy is an excellently practiced field surgeon who, if not for his crude and humourous shenanigans, would probably be at least as skilled as a chapter apothecary.