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Hello.

Before I begin explaining what I want changed, let me tell you of the background to my reasoning.

I train a Japanese martial art known as Bujinkan. I have trained it for a fair while now, and while I am far from a master or even impressively skilled, I have gained a good experience of it thanks to what I have done and, most of all, seen.

One thing that really struck me about the WS system in 40K is how little it actually seems to matter compared to strength. In Bujinkan strength is almost irrelevant, when faced with a skilled weakling an unskilled brute will very likely end up face down on the floor. This is contrary to 40K's system where a WS4 S5 model is generally superior to a WS5 S4 model.

Let's assume that WS2 is an untrained human, WS3 a trainee to low intermediate, WS4 high intermediate to very skilled, and WS5 is a master.

If you have seen what I have, you will know that the chance for an untrained person to land a blow on a martial arts master is far below a 5+. Hell, even a 6+ where you reroll successful hits would be generous. Obviously we can't go that far, but I still think it is ludicrous that said untrained human should hit someone who has trained for decades on a 4+

I have trained enough to perhaps be WS3, and if I decided to go up against even my trainer (Who'd perhaps be WS4) I'd end up on the floor with two broken arms, two broken legs, six broken ribs, and both eyes sliced in mere seconds. He'd certainly not hit me on a 3+, and I would never stand a chance to hit him!

Has anyone else thought of this too?

I really think the importance of WS should be increased.

I have always thought as much.

How about instead of the current system, both sides roll a number of D6 equal to their Attacks characteristic, then add their weapon skill to the highest dice. The number of hits inflicted on the loser is equal to the difference between the winner and the loser's scores.

Your far from the first one to notice this stupidity...

Its very strange that shooters can hit on a wild 6+ to 2+, but some WS10 ultimate ninja can be hit by Gretchin on a 5+. Anyone who has done any sort of fighting can tell you that a higher skilled fighter will beat a lower skilled one to a far greater extent than "hit on 3+ get hit on 4+" would indicate.

What makes it doubly stupid is how easy it is to shoot straight. Flames of War for instance treats the offensive ability of conscripts and veterans as the same, with their skill determing how likely they are to be hit by enemy shooting

Well what about something like this:

1. Attack Dice. Both player's roll a number of D6 equal to their model's Attack characteristic.
2. Combat Score. Each player picks his single highest roll and add's his model's Weapon Skill to the roll. Then add any relevant modifiers (listed below). The total is the Combat Score.
3. Determine Winner. The player with the highest Combat Score wins. In a tie, the model with highest Initiative wins. If still a tie, the combat is a stand-off.
4. Number of Hits. The difference between Combat Scores is the number of times the winner hits the loser. If a model wins on a tie, 1 hit is scored.
5. Roll Damage. For each hit roll to damage as normal (S v T).
6. Saving Throws. Models take saves as normal.

Modifiers.
Fumble - Every 1 your opponent rolls on his Attack Dice adds +1 to your Combat Score.
Critical Hit - Every 6 you roll on your Attack Dice after the first adds +1 to your Combat Score.
Charging - If the model charged into combat this turn then add +1 to yor Combat Score.
High Ground - If the model is on a higher slope, stair, etc. then add +1 to your Combat Score. You do not gain this for having a taller model.
Encumbered - If the model is encumbered by carrying a heavy weapon or similar large piece of equipment (this would have to have a list listing what applies) the model has a -1 penalty to Combat Score.
Obstacle - If you charge through difficult terrain, you suffer a deduction of -1 from your Combat Score. Note that this only applies in the turn you charge.

Clearly this would not work for large units battling it out, but maybe for challenges?

The system was designed to be highly abstract and to be both simple and quick.

Its definately not realistic.

That being said, feel free to try different things out if your opponent doesnt mind.

First off, when you're attacking most of the enemies in 40k, your martial arts prowess means precisely jack. Space Marines, for example, are covered in six inches of powerful armor. And from what I know of swordplay and weapon-based fighting (Which is, admittedly, rather limited), the skill gap is drastically reduced, especially as you start using heavier and slower weapons. Any untrained fool can swing a heavy sword or club really hard and land a hit once in a while. Meanwhile, even master swordsmen still have to deal with the fact that their weapon weighs several pounds and can only move so fast.
Now imagine you're fighting with, instead of just a sword, a thirty-pound, six-foot hammer. And your opponent is weilding a chainsaw the size of your torso. There's only so much you can do, regardless of your training level.

Then, on top of that, remember that Close Combat hits are sometimes representations if firing your pistol at them, at point blank. Or biting at everything they can find, including weapons. There's no blocking that.

Swords? Heavy? >:c

A modern arming sword is 3 pounds, I doubt strapping whatever tech turns a standard sword to a power sword would add more than a pound to it, and bam, now it can ignore most armors.

Waaaghpower wrote:
First off, when you're attacking most of the enemies in 40k, your martial arts prowess means precisely jack. Space Marines, for example, are covered in six inches of powerful armor. And from what I know of swordplay and weapon-based fighting (Which is, admittedly, rather limited), the skill gap is drastically reduced, especially as you start using heavier and slower weapons. Any untrained fool can swing a heavy sword or club really hard and land a hit once in a while. Meanwhile, even master swordsmen still have to deal with the fact that their weapon weighs several pounds and can only move so fast.
Now imagine you're fighting with, instead of just a sword, a thirty-pound, six-foot hammer. And your opponent is weilding a chainsaw the size of your torso. There's only so much you can do, regardless of your training level.

Then, on top of that, remember that Close Combat hits are sometimes representations if firing your pistol at them, at point blank. Or biting at everything they can find, including weapons. There's no blocking that.

I agree with the above. Furthermore there is such a thing as Initiative. I believe that your Initiative value is also a mechanism to show combat prowess. If you are an excellent fighter you can hit faster than your opponent taking him out before he can retaliate.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I have always thought as much.

How about instead of the current system, both sides roll a number of D6 equal to their Attacks characteristic, then add their weapon skill to the highest dice. The number of hits inflicted on the loser is equal to the difference between the winner and the loser's scores.

In case of a draw, you need a tie break. I would say the Initiative stat is good for this, so if you have higher I, you win by one.

To add more variation, each 6 after the first adds 1 to your score, while each 1 you get adds to your opponent's score.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aha! This is entirely what I was going to suggest + more:

 Happyjew wrote:
Well what about something like this:

1. Attack Dice. Both player's roll a number of D6 equal to their model's Attack characteristic.
2. Combat Score. Each player picks his single highest roll and add's his model's Weapon Skill to the roll. Then add any relevant modifiers (listed below). The total is the Combat Score.
3. Determine Winner. The player with the highest Combat Score wins. In a tie, the model with highest Initiative wins. If still a tie, the combat is a stand-off.
4. Number of Hits. The difference between Combat Scores is the number of times the winner hits the loser. If a model wins on a tie, 1 hit is scored.
5. Roll Damage. For each hit roll to damage as normal (S v T).
6. Saving Throws. Models take saves as normal.

Modifiers.
Fumble - Every 1 your opponent rolls on his Attack Dice adds +1 to your Combat Score.
Critical Hit - Every 6 you roll on your Attack Dice after the first adds +1 to your Combat Score.
Charging - If the model charged into combat this turn then add +1 to yor Combat Score.
High Ground - If the model is on a higher slope, stair, etc. then add +1 to your Combat Score. You do not gain this for having a taller model.
Encumbered - If the model is encumbered by carrying a heavy weapon or similar large piece of equipment (this would have to have a list listing what applies) the model has a -1 penalty to Combat Score.
Obstacle - If you charge through difficult terrain, you suffer a deduction of -1 from your Combat Score. Note that this only applies in the turn you charge.

Clearly this would not work for large units battling it out, but maybe for challenges?

Initiative and weapon skill should be closely linked.

It doesn't matter if you're the most skilled swordsman there is, if your arm is too slow to parry the blow you're dead.

Martial skill effectively is the only thing that matters if two equally equipped Marines (A CSM vs a SM- not an implausible scenario) fight.

Or Eldar and DEldar.

Guardsmen and traitor guard.

Et cetera, ad nauseam.

 Happyjew wrote:
Well what about something like this:

1. Attack Dice. Both player's roll a number of D6 equal to their model's Attack characteristic.
2. Combat Score. Each player picks his single highest roll and add's his model's Weapon Skill to the roll. Then add any relevant modifiers (listed below). The total is the Combat Score.
3. Determine Winner. The player with the highest Combat Score wins. In a tie, the model with highest Initiative wins. If still a tie, the combat is a stand-off.
4. Number of Hits. The difference between Combat Scores is the number of times the winner hits the loser. If a model wins on a tie, 1 hit is scored.
5. Roll Damage. For each hit roll to damage as normal (S v T).
6. Saving Throws. Models take saves as normal.

Modifiers.
Fumble - Every 1 your opponent rolls on his Attack Dice adds +1 to your Combat Score.
Critical Hit - Every 6 you roll on your Attack Dice after the first adds +1 to your Combat Score.
Charging - If the model charged into combat this turn then add +1 to yor Combat Score.
High Ground - If the model is on a higher slope, stair, etc. then add +1 to your Combat Score. You do not gain this for having a taller model.
Encumbered - If the model is encumbered by carrying a heavy weapon or similar large piece of equipment (this would have to have a list listing what applies) the model has a -1 penalty to Combat Score.
Obstacle - If you charge through difficult terrain, you suffer a deduction of -1 from your Combat Score. Note that this only applies in the turn you charge.

Clearly this would not work for large units battling it out, but maybe for challenges?

The problem with this is that high weapon skill models would become untouchable, take necrons for example suddenly Oberon is a lot better in CC than any necron lord/overlord and that's just a difference of two. Most codexes couldn't fight the swarm lord at all in close combat, you'd have to shoot him to death or he'd auto win in CC.

I know the CC to hit rules are weird but there really isn't any way to change it without making high weapon skill way to potent. You might be able to make so to hit in CC works just like shooting, ie ws4 is a 3+ always and ws6 is a 2+ reroll misses to hit on 6+ ws2 5+ ect.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Initiative and weapon skill should be closely linked.

It doesn't matter if you're the most skilled swordsman there is, if your arm is too slow to parry the blow you're dead.

Martial skill effectively is the only thing that matters if two equally equipped Marines (A CSM vs a SM- not an implausible scenario) fight.

Or Eldar and DEldar.

Guardsmen and traitor guard.

Et cetera, ad nauseam.

I've been coming up with a ruleset, and in it there's Martial Ability (MA) and Agility (AG). AG determines who fights when and whether they can dodge attacks, but for each point a model's MA is below their opponents, they have a -1AG penalty to dodge. I should also mention that my ruleset uses a d10 system, since d6 makes too much (or too little) of a difference between single digits.

 NL_Cirrus wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Well what about something like this:

1. Attack Dice. Both player's roll a number of D6 equal to their model's Attack characteristic.
2. Combat Score. Each player picks his single highest roll and add's his model's Weapon Skill to the roll. Then add any relevant modifiers (listed below). The total is the Combat Score.
3. Determine Winner. The player with the highest Combat Score wins. In a tie, the model with highest Initiative wins. If still a tie, the combat is a stand-off.
4. Number of Hits. The difference between Combat Scores is the number of times the winner hits the loser. If a model wins on a tie, 1 hit is scored.
5. Roll Damage. For each hit roll to damage as normal (S v T).
6. Saving Throws. Models take saves as normal.

Modifiers.
Fumble - Every 1 your opponent rolls on his Attack Dice adds +1 to your Combat Score.
Critical Hit - Every 6 you roll on your Attack Dice after the first adds +1 to your Combat Score.
Charging - If the model charged into combat this turn then add +1 to yor Combat Score.
High Ground - If the model is on a higher slope, stair, etc. then add +1 to your Combat Score. You do not gain this for having a taller model.
Encumbered - If the model is encumbered by carrying a heavy weapon or similar large piece of equipment (this would have to have a list listing what applies) the model has a -1 penalty to Combat Score.
Obstacle - If you charge through difficult terrain, you suffer a deduction of -1 from your Combat Score. Note that this only applies in the turn you charge.

Clearly this would not work for large units battling it out, but maybe for challenges?

The problem with this is that high weapon skill models would become untouchable, take necrons for example suddenly Oberon is a lot better in CC than any necron lord/overlord and that's just a difference of two. Most codexes couldn't fight the swarm lord at all in close combat, you'd have to shoot him to death or he'd auto win in CC.

I know the CC to hit rules are weird but there really isn't any way to change it without making high weapon skill way to potent. You might be able to make so to hit in CC works just like shooting, ie ws4 is a 3+ always and ws6 is a 2+ reroll misses to hit on 6+ ws2 5+ ect.

You should have penalties for being outnumbered. Maybe you fight each guy in a row, but you get a -1 penalty for each person you've fought so soon the high WS character starts losing if against too many models, or has to fight some rank and file before the character (resolve in proximity order).

I've always figured that the abstraction was to represent a giant cluster-feth melee, more than a measured and controlled duel (challenges sort of throw this out the window though). Consider initiative to be more indicative of actual martial prowess. In a knife fight, -everyone- gets cut, but sometimes if I'm good enough, I can cut you first.
In a medieval style meatgrinder, armour, endurance, and discipline is much more important than a fighter's individual combat prowess. There's just so much gak going on, and so many people trying to get a swing in, that no matter how trained you are, some of those blows are going to land, youre going to get tired and dragged down and trampled, or your going to loose your cool and run away.

You can be the best goddamn samurai in the world, but in a brawl, a peasant can still bash you in the head with a rock when your back is turned.

Challenges and low model count melees effectively throw that out the window.

I remember reading something about this type of argument before. In training and on paper martial arts and swordsman ship look like they have the advantage easily. But in real combat, adrenaline and fatigue quickly dulls fine motor skills. It's why you always see the MMA fights break down into hugging. It might have been an episode of Penn and Teller's BS about martial arts now that I think of it.

Also movie physics. This is a universe where one heroic figure can walk in the realm of the gods, slaying all in his path for eternity. Where a human sized character can take a battle cannon or rail cannon shot to the face and keep going without any negatives.

I mean if we are going on the idea to try and make things more realistic, we should have fatigue modifiers. For every round of combat after the first the squad gets -1WS -1I, stacking of course.

Though I will admit the chart is complete crap and gives little incentive to actually have a higher WS.

I like a lot of the ideas you guys had, but for sake of simplicity, I propose that the WS comparison work like the str vs toughness. Ergo, if I am WS 7 vs WS 3 not only do I hit on 2+ (here we use shooting rules) but i get to reroll if I miss, hitting on a 6+. If I am WS 10, I hit on a 2+ until my opponent is WS 8 or higher.

In reverse, say I take a SM chapter master against the feaking avatar of khaine (yaaaa baybee) that chapter master is hitting on 6 ( you never hit on worse than that) while the avatar of khain hits him on a 2+, refilling and hitting on 5+. This is how it should be. It keeps the Avatar as an unholy monster in CC, while allowing even chaff the chance to fight back. So if it murders in CC... Kill it at range

 Savageconvoy wrote:


Though I will admit the chart is complete crap and gives little incentive to actually have a higher WS.

Yeah, this is effectively what I am getting at.

The upgrade from WS7 to WS8 is almost irrelevant, while upgrading WS8 to WS9 can make a lot more difference. (The first only makes a difference against the very rare WS7 and WS8 units, while the second upgrade effectively reduces melee damage taken by 33% against most units in the game.)

What about something like this? It wouldn't affect Space Marines on Space Marines that much, but it'd make guys with significantly higher WS have the option to hit on 2+ (and be hit on 6+).

The issue overall I think is that WS 7-10 are not so different from one another, whereas WS2-5 are...

Same really goes for BS scores as well. Going from BS4 to BS5 cuts the odds of missing in half, while going from BS5 to BS6 has less impact on your likely hood to miss and keeps cutting that small margin to miss down from there.

Perhaps if your WS score is 3 higher than your opponent you're allowed re-rolls, like how having a BS6 (3 over the "standard") then you get a small re-roll to hit.

 greyknight12 wrote:
What about something like this? It wouldn't affect Space Marines on Space Marines that much, but it'd make guys with significantly higher WS have the option to hit on 2+ (and be hit on 6+).

I tried something like this in a game before, I had one necron lord equivalent (he had higher weapon skill but was otherwise identical to a necron lord, also no MSS) take on and win against a squad of terminators, Mega nobs, and a war boss by himself. That is he was fighting them all at the same time.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Same really goes for BS scores as well. Going from BS4 to BS5 cuts the odds of missing in half, while going from BS5 to BS6 has less impact on your likely hood to miss and keeps cutting that small margin to miss down from there.

Perhaps if your WS score is 3 higher than your opponent you're allowed re-rolls, like how having a BS6 (3 over the "standard") then you get a small re-roll to hit.

BS should be like the current WS chart, but against initiative rather than opposed BS.

I'd love to see a high-I MC like the Swarmlord dodge a sniper bullet from 36" away.

Yeah, no.

Shooting should be BS only. Those who are fast enough to dodge bullets, like Hesperax and DCA, already have an invuln for that.

Is not dodging; it's not being in a position to be shot in the first place.

Except that it's not that easy to dodge a shot... Especially if it is from a sniper, super-longrange weapon, or, gasp! Maybe even a weapon fired by someone that the target is not currently aware of.

Even then, are you arguing that a I4 Terminator should be harder to hit with shooting than a I2 Grot?

It's not dodging. It represents not putting yourself into positions where you are shot at easily, or getting into better position when you hear or detect your unit being shot at quickly.

If they are unaware, iniative works even better. If there was some rule about it, you count as I1for being shot by that target.

Initiative represents speed, not how smart you are at avoiding being hit. What you are talking about seems like cover.

Speed means nothing if your sensory organs are incapable of detecting the incoming shot, if it moves faster than you, if you are unaware of the shot actually coming, etc.

I insist about my Grot to Terminator comparison.

First off, most of what's been suggested is from 2nd Edition 40k, and close combat was a time consuming screw-around. I think they're just pulling legs.

Secondly, as has been mentioned, close combat represents all manner of close range combat capability. For example, Super Samurai Lord of Destruction runs up to Pleebo Relaxo. Pleebo tosses a bandolier of grenades at SSLoD... Pleebo manages to score hits, because a sword can only deflect so much shrapnel. Huzzah!

It reminds me of the scene from one of the Indiana Jones movies, where Indy's trying to escape. Some sword master shows up in front of him, flourishing a sword, and Indy shoots him in the chest. Bam. Fight's over. At 5 meters' range, it's easy to hit a weapon master on a 2+ when you shoot them with a pistol.

Skill means feth-all when weapons are made to be lethal with minimal effort. It's the whole reason that modern soldiers use guns instead of swords. Really, 40k shouldn't properly have melee weapons that are more deadly than a Plasma-gun... something that any old grunt can pick up and suddenly expose a target to the intense energy of a miniature-star projectile. When you really start digging, any race capable of inflicting an exterminatus has no reason to go to a ground war at all. Find your enemies, launch Exterminatus, profit.

So it's probably best to not get toooooo terribly wound up in what you think should realistically apply to the 40k game.


Lastly, from a game mechanic perspective, anything that you feel should be hitting on twos, but only being hit on a 6, is probably going to murderate a goon anyhow. Plus, do you think the best trained human soldiers in the galaxy [Imperial Guard] are only hitting their target half of the time? For realsies, people shouldn't cry about their super combat beast only hitting on threes, while being hit on 5's. It's a game that needs to be balanced in some kind of way, and that's what was decided about 20 years ago.

The race capable of exterminatus is fighting, 90% of the time, on their own planets. The imperium has been fighting a defensive war since the crusade.