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Made in us
Battleship Captain




Oregon

More reason to give melta bombs out.

Actually melta bomb Vanguard would be interesting.
   
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Krazed Killa Kan






2 Squads of Sternguard with 5 combi meltas cost as much as one Knight Errant. I don't think that's a coincidence because that's exactly what you're going to need to kill one

http://www.heresy-online.net/combatcalculator/shooting_vehicles.php?1=Attacker%20Group%201;5;1;4;8;1;;;;;;;;;;1;;;;;;;&d=Defender%20Group;1;12;4;;;&v=0

This is the math.

On average, if you droppod 5 meltaguns (meaning combi sterns or Command Squad), you're looking at 1.389 pens and a miniscule 0.139 glances for about 3 hull points. Significant damage but not enough to down one for just under 200 pts.

In addition, your pens average .463 Explodes! results, which forces the super heavy to roll a D3 which equals additional lost hull points. On average that's a little better than 2 hull points. So that's maybe 4 hull points through the ion shield.

And so if you combined that basically with a Lascannon Dev squad, without the Ion shield because you're forcing him to choose between the two facings, you could cause another pen on average plus one half a glance, for another 2.5 HP and a ~ 16% chance at another explodes! result.

http://www.heresy-online.net/combatcalculator/shooting_vehicles.php?1=Attacker%20Group%201;5;1;4;9;2;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;&d=Defender%20Group;1;13;;;;&v=0

So realistically, yeah, with a drop pod melta squad and a long range AT squad you could conceivably down one of these things on the turn the Meltavets arrive from reserves. One lascannon squad plus a squad of at -LEAST- 4 meltaguns is probably bare minimum for taking one out if your opponent has one. 2 squads of meltagun vets is probably a better idea because they can alphastrike, but if you're getting within 6" of a Knight, be aware that he's going to drop a 10" template centered around the Knight that could conceivably wipe out your meltagun unit.

So whatever meltagun units you use are going to die after the melta alphastrike. Lascannon units are obviously vulnerable to the Paladin's 2 Battlecannon shots which outrange it, which complicates the scenario somewhat. Realistically you're probably looking at 2 Meltagun units coming from reserves per knight, both of which will die compared to the cost of a single knight (so roughly comparable).

multimeltas are not an option because they are Heavy 1 and therefore do not have alpha strike ability. They also cannot move and therefore it is inconceivable that they could get within range to touch a knight.

I think you could down one reliably with a SM TAC list's AT. I would also consider putting meltaguns on your Bike squads and MMs on your ABs and Landspeeders.

So the knight is basically a cost that can and will be absorbed by TAC lists - most efficient scenario would call for the loss of at least one squad. It's once you start talking about primary detachments of between 3-5 knights that it becomes a real problem that needs to be solved. Keep in mind the Seneschal HQ gets a 3+ ion shield which makes all of this considerably more difficult.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/03/11 00:23:25


Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
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Regular Dakkanaut




Honestly, I dont see Eldar having too much trouble with these. With Serpents, Wraithknights, and Fire Dragons being good against just about anything and finding lots of facings, they should do rather well. Heck, the WK in tandem (or in that formation especially) they should handle them well in CC also.

If the Avatar could make it into combat somehow it would stand a great chance. Hawks would do similarly well but dont really want that close to nasty explosions.
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

Goobi2 wrote:
Honestly, I dont see Eldar having too much trouble with these. With Serpents, Wraithknights, and Fire Dragons being good against just about anything and finding lots of facings, they should do rather well. Heck, the WK in tandem (or in that formation especially) they should handle them well in CC also.

If the Avatar could make it into combat somehow it would stand a great chance. Hawks would do similarly well but dont really want that close to nasty explosions.

Well, the Avatar or a WK have no grenades. They shouldn't charge a Knight in cover since then the superheavy will go first.

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Using Inks and Washes




St. George, Utah

Wraithknights with their stock guns are better off shooting it to death even if there's the 4++ invuln. At best you cause a hull point with the hammer of wrath before it gets to go, and land some simultaneous hits against it. You're hoping for mutually assured destruction.

Avatar is kind of in the same boat but has significantly less range and doesn't Hammer of Wrath at S10.
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

I haven't seen the codex. So just to be clear...

If a meltagun hits the Imperial Knight and rols a 15 for armor penetrations and then a 4 (+2 for AP 1 = 6) then what happens? Just more Hull points? That seems terrible.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/03/11 19:55:15


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The Eye of Terror

I think they are OK but some balance needs to come in namely

Chaos needs one

Orks allowed to field stompas in standard games

No all knight armies as it is such crap and invalidates the point of taking infantry.

Wraithknights are similar and have the advantage of not becoming collosal bombs when destroyed.

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Saratoga Springs, NY

tag8833 wrote:
Does anybody know a Tau player who runs only a single Riptide?


*cough* That would be me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jancoran wrote:
I haven't seen the codex. So just to be clear...

If a meltagun hits the Imperial Knight and rols a 15 for armor penetrations and then a 4 (+2 for AP 1 = 6) then what happens? Just more Hull points? That seems terrible.



Explodes results on a superheavy take off an additional d3 hull points. (so anywhere from 2 to 4 as a result of that one shot).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/11 20:27:08


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BrianDavion wrote:
Between the two of us... I think GW is assuming we the players are not complete idiots.


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 dementedwombat wrote:
tag8833 wrote:
Does anybody know a Tau player who runs only a single Riptide?


*cough* That would be me.


Also me

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/11 20:35:16


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Fireknife Shas'el






 Jancoran wrote:
I haven't seen the codex. So just to be clear...

If a meltagun hits the Imperial Knight and rols a 15 for armor penetrations and then a 4 (+2 for AP 1 = 6) then what happens? Just more Hull points? That seems terrible.


If you get an explodes result then you roll a D3 and it loses that many more hull points. So at 6 HP you need a minimum of two explodes to take it down.

I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."

"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
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Oceanic

 The Shadow wrote:
I played a game the other day against an Imperial Knight with my Eldar and I honestly didn't find it that bad. Perhaps it's because I was playing quite a strong, fast, shooty list, but I had few problems.

I took it down Turn 1 with a Fire Prism and Bright Lance on the front (where it turned its shield) and two Wave Serpents (usual build) in the flanks. I got an explodes with the Serpent Shield, which I guess was pretty lucky, but, even so, I'd have likely taken it down Turn 2. Best thing was that it exploded and took out a bunch of other guys with it.

It was the Melta variant and it only seems deadly when it gets into combat. It's a powerful melta gun, but at the end of the day, it's one shot. I'd have been a lot more scared of it if I was playing Orks or Nids, I reckon.


You didn't play it right I believe. Imperial knight doesn't go off the reg damage table. It's considered a super heavy.

If you get a penetrating hit. You don't roll on the damage table. You just take a hull point off. Once it runs out of hull points. It's blows up in a glorious burst of awesomeness.

You might wanna take a do over.

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... Except as covered many times here already, superheavies take extra damage from explodes results on a pen. It does ignore a 1-5 result, but it still rolls.

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Fireknife Shas'el






How do you measure the side armor on those models? It's a very oddly shaped vehicle with what looks like a very small side facing.

One of the problems I'm trying to figure out is if Broadsides with HRR are worth taking, since HYMP would only ever glance the front armor. Knights are faster and with the shield can easily render the immobile broadsides useless. I never even thought I'd ever get lucky enough to get the HYMP to side armor.

I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."

"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby 
   
Made in us
Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator





Melta bombs if you can get a couple of them in a squad with some ablative wounds should do the job.

You ideally need WS4 to cut his D weapon to 1.5 hits (1.25) kills and 3+ armor for the stomps. Some of the better squads for delivering lots of melta bombs are sadly limited in size :(
   
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Saratoga Springs, NY

Question: does haywire bounce off superheavies? I would assume it does, but I'm just checking.

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BrianDavion wrote:
Between the two of us... I think GW is assuming we the players are not complete idiots.


Rapidly on path to becoming the world's youngest bitter old man. 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Johnnytorrance wrote:
 The Shadow wrote:
I played a game the other day against an Imperial Knight with my Eldar and I honestly didn't find it that bad. Perhaps it's because I was playing quite a strong, fast, shooty list, but I had few problems.

I took it down Turn 1 with a Fire Prism and Bright Lance on the front (where it turned its shield) and two Wave Serpents (usual build) in the flanks. I got an explodes with the Serpent Shield, which I guess was pretty lucky, but, even so, I'd have likely taken it down Turn 2. Best thing was that it exploded and took out a bunch of other guys with it.

It was the Melta variant and it only seems deadly when it gets into combat. It's a powerful melta gun, but at the end of the day, it's one shot. I'd have been a lot more scared of it if I was playing Orks or Nids, I reckon.


You didn't play it right I believe. Imperial knight doesn't go off the reg damage table. It's considered a super heavy.

If you get a penetrating hit. You don't roll on the damage table. You just take a hull point off. Once it runs out of hull points. It's blows up in a glorious burst of awesomeness.

You might wanna take a do over.


Nope. SHV get a damage table, and you do roll on it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 dementedwombat wrote:
Question: does haywire bounce off superheavies? I would assume it does, but I'm just checking.


SHV receive no protection from haywire.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/11 22:19:41


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Fixture of Dakka



Chicago, Illinois

I'm pretty sure a squad of Centurions w/ grav guns would make short work of these guys.

Tyranids - Anything that flies has a STR of 6 > can damage it on vector strikes, Zoanthropes are lance, multiple units that can barrage it.

Chaos Space Marine - Heldrakes

Chaos Daemon - A large unit of plague bearers could kill it CC by stripping it down with Rust. Monstrous Creatures, etc.. etc..

Tau : Um lots

Eldar - Bright Lances

Dark Eldar - LoL

Necrons - um everything?

Orks ??????

If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated. 
   
Made in se
Glorious Lord of Chaos






The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

Hollismason wrote:
I'm pretty sure a squad of Centurions w/ grav guns would make short work of these guys.

Tyranids - Anything that flies has a STR of 6 > can damage it on vector strikes, Zoanthropes are lance, multiple units that can barrage it.

Chaos Space Marine - Heldrakes

Chaos Daemon - A large unit of plague bearers could kill it CC by stripping it down with Rust. Monstrous Creatures, etc.. etc..

Tau : Um lots

Eldar - Bright Lances

Dark Eldar - LoL

Necrons - um everything?

Orks ??????


How can Heldrakes kill it? They do very inefficient damage output against it.

Monstrous creatures are bad, because I4 Destroyer.

Orks are fethed, lol.

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Fireknife Shas'el






Tau don't really have a lot against it.
HRR and HYMP are generally ineffective against AV13.
Skyrays take off 1.67 HPs with one markerlight, half of which gets saved.
Riptides with IA only get a single S9 AP2 hit, assuming Nova goes off and it doesn't get hot, unless your opponent manages to group them in the worst possible way.
HBC needs to Nova charge to do anything.
Suits have a decent chance, but really limits your elite slot unless you're taking enclave and have enough space for solo fusion suits.
Hammerheads just lack volume of fire to reliably get past that shield, still needing 4+ to pen none the less.

This is all while the Knights are steadily moving towards your army with weaponry that is really good at removing suits and Riptides.

Almost forgot. Piranha! Cheap and fast unit that produces two screens to slow down the Knights and they can have the firepower to take down a knight if you pay the points. 750 points for 15 melta shots in three units.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/11 23:15:46


I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."

"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby 
   
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Grav cents are lucky to take down a LR in a round of shooting. They are too expensive/valuable to waste trying to shave HPs off of a superheavy.

One word. Melta. Double MM Landspeeders are an amazing investment as would be a pair of MM attack bikes. Also 5 man assault squads with meltabombs. Between the krak grenades and the meltabombs at only 85 points is a reasonable sacrifice to take a chunk out of a knight. Hell, two of em might be able to bring one down at half the points. Finish it off with the Speeders.
   
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Chicago, Illinois

I don't think you can plant meltabombs on Walkers.

If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated. 
   
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Glorious Lord of Chaos






The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

You can.

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Nasty Nob





United States

 Blackskull wrote:
I think they are OK but some balance needs to come in namely

Chaos needs one

Orks allowed to field stompas in standard games

No all knight armies as it is such crap and invalidates the point of taking infantry.

Wraithknights are similar and have the advantage of not becoming collosal bombs when destroyed.


As an ork I don't see it undermining all infantry, just making Lootas and Tankbustas more valueable in a meta fueled by these new vehicles that aren't AV14. Lootas will be needed to shoot it, maybe even tankbustas. I wouldn't think this means it undermines infantry.

I really think they meant these superheavies as a means to transport the D to some of the deathstars that need broken. When you think about whats being said in the "GW balance" article it seems they wanted these IK's to make just another facet to fight list building.

EDIT; Also a good reason to add boarding planks, the off chance that a trukk makes its way next to one is a valueable asset in terms of getting some infantry supplied powerklaw into a list. Also the point about tankbustas is made more valueable specifically when you talk about getting a larger chance to pen for the D3 extra hullpoints. Why would you just want to glance one?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/03/12 00:39:12


I am the kinda ork that takes his own washing machine apart, puts new bearings in it, then puts it back together, and it still works. 
   
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





Liverpool

For Orks Deff Rollas still work well.
Mekboy Junka is also a cheaper way of getting these, without competing for a Battlewagon slot.

I'm honestly finding Knights to be a surprisingly well balanced unit. Tough, but not overly so.
   
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Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh






Dallas, TX

I've seen two mistakes here that need to be fixed:

1) Someone mentioned a divination librarian to give a knight ignores cover. Can't do that. The ignores cover power is for the caster's unit only, and he can't join a knight. No help there.

2) Someone said you can't charge a unit you can't hurt. This was FAQ'ed to be allowed. A bunch of S3 guardsmen could absolutely charge a knight to attempt to lock it in combat even if they didn't have any means of hurting it, and it's a valid tactic with termagaunts or fearless cultists and such.

40k Armies I play:


Glory for Slaanesh!

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 SRSFACE wrote:
Wraithknights with their stock guns are better off shooting it to death even if there's the 4++ invuln. At best you cause a hull point with the hammer of wrath before it gets to go, and land some simultaneous hits against it. You're hoping for mutually assured destruction.

Avatar is kind of in the same boat but has significantly less range and doesn't Hammer of Wrath at S10.


Well both options have higher initiatives tham the knight and should attack first. Smash will help the Avatar to get Pens in with AP1. The Knight does an average of 3 wounds to an Avatar in CC. 1 attack should hit, most results do 2-4 wounds. If by some magic the Avatar gets in fairly intact it may well win out in that combat.

Wraithknights can take the in coming fire much better and can easily avoid charging through terrain whilst doing damage with their guns. They would do much better working in tandem systematically taking on one knight at a time.
   
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Cleveland, Ohio, USA

Goobi2 wrote:
 SRSFACE wrote:
Wraithknights with their stock guns are better off shooting it to death even if there's the 4++ invuln. At best you cause a hull point with the hammer of wrath before it gets to go, and land some simultaneous hits against it. You're hoping for mutually assured destruction.

Avatar is kind of in the same boat but has significantly less range and doesn't Hammer of Wrath at S10.


Well both options have higher initiatives tham the knight and should attack first. Smash will help the Avatar to get Pens in with AP1. The Knight does an average of 3 wounds to an Avatar in CC. 1 attack should hit, most results do 2-4 wounds. If by some magic the Avatar gets in fairly intact it may well win out in that combat.

Wraithknights can take the in coming fire much better and can easily avoid charging through terrain whilst doing damage with their guns. They would do much better working in tandem systematically taking on one knight at a time.


You forget stomps, which remove both Avatar and Wraithknight on a 6.

They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines, and they shall know no fear. 
   
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The idea is to finish off it before it attacks, let alone stomps.

But assuming it does get to stomp, 5 out of 6 times it will be of minimal threat (especially to the wraithknights). 6's can happen, but they are far from being the most likely result.
   
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Cleveland, Ohio, USA

Goobi2 wrote:
The idea is to finish off it before it attacks, let alone stomps.

But assuming it does get to stomp, 5 out of 6 times it will be of minimal threat (especially to the wraithknights). 6's can happen, but they are far from being the most likely result.


The stars need to align respectably for you to kill it before it attacks, let alone it hitting you back and stomping.

They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines, and they shall know no fear. 
   
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A dual knight charge has 12 S10 attacks. 7 hits, 2 at AP2. That looks to be 3.5 pens and a glance. It wouldnt be a stretch to assume one explodes is rolled on a 5+. With one explodes that is minimally 5 hp gone (but just as likely 6-7) without worrying about shooting the S10 guns.

The Avatar is the one needing the most alignment, especially to simply make it into combat. Assuming he is charged he should hit twice. Those two attacks have great odds of pening with the reroll. Here you will likely only have 1 explodes, but respectable odds for 2. Assuming 1, thats an average of 4 hp damage. The knight should hit 1.3333 times on the charge doing around 4 wounds.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/12 03:41:24


 
   
 
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