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This is a summary of the current lore from the Tau 6th ed codex from Lexicannum

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The battle was the first major engagement between the Imperium and Tau Empire during the Third Sphere of Expansion. Centered on the Hive World of Agrellan, the human forces had amassed a substantial force of Imperial Guard which were heavily dug-in and supported by heavy Leman Russ Battle Tanks. The Imperial defenses surrounding each Hive were formidable - heavy walls topped with bunkers overlooking an open wasteland rigged with mines and tank traps. Bypassing or landing behind these positions was difficult, as they would simply find themselves trapped within the twisting streets of hive cities and surrounded on all sides. However due to the strategic importance of Agrellan (being the gateway to the Dovar System), Third Sphere commander Shadowsun realized that bypassing the world was impossible. To bolster Tau morale for the battle ahead, Ethereal Supreme Aun'va personally arrived to meet with Tau forces set to enter the battle.[1]

To crack this formidable planet, Shadowsun herself planned and led the assault. Twenty Hunter Cadre's simultaneously struck key hive nodes, and at the vanguard of each strode the latest and mightiest Tau weapon, the XV104 Riptide Battlesuit. This was the first combat deployment of the Riptide, and they proved invaluable during the battle, using their agility to bypass defensive points and blowing apart Imperial Guard bunkers and tanks with their heavy weapons. Better still for the Tau, much of the Imperial anti-tank weaponry proved useless against the Riptide's armor. Even the firing of an Imperial Deathstrike Missile proved unable to penetrate the Riptide's once they had activated their Nova Reactor shields. Upon reaching the enemy walls, the Riptide's engaged their jet packs and created breaches that would later be exploited by Fire Warrior teams.[1]

Taking advantage of the situation, Shadowsun then began mass ground assault led by Hammerhead tanks, Manta Gunships, and Sun Shark bombers. Despite being outnumbered by Imperial tanks six-to-one, the Tau emerged victorious thanks to their planning, maneuverability, and long-range firepower. It was during this engagement that Longstrike gained infamy for destroying countless Leman Russ tanks and leading the Tau grav-tanks into the streets of Agrellan's capital hive. Here, the Tau were able to use accurate Hammerhead firepower to quickly suppress any Imperial Guard forces that attempted to move out of their cover and engage incoming waves of Fire Warriors.[1]

Shadowsun then led a counterattack against the Imperial forces that turned into a complete rout in what is now known as the Path of Blood. It is a bright day for the Tau, who saw a foe with vastly superior numbers crushed. Moreover, no less than twelve advanced weapon prototypes were successfully deployed in the campaign, with only the fusion reactor meltdown that destroyed Agrellan's moon proving a failure. After the battle, Agrellan became a new Tau Sept, renamed Mu'gulath. With Mu'gulath in their hands, most nearby Imperial worlds fell to the Tau in short order.

-


Note that the first paragraph spells out very clearly that this is a fortress/hive world with extremely strong defenses. Also note the numbers difference of 6:1 and that it ends in a total rout. The victory also causes the tau to take scores of fresh worlds in short order.

However, with the new Damocles Warzone book coming out, almost everything I've seen and heard about this so far seems to be saying that its anything but a victory for the Tau. Look at most of the artwork which is used to promote the game and the covers.

https://www.google.com/search?site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1440&bih=809&q=damocles+tau&oq=damocles+tau&gs_l=img.3...931.9210.0.9811.16.12.1.3.0.0.109.960.11j1.12.0....0...1ac.1.37.img..6.10.769.Dq5lZ5hZ8fI#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=gQccLAph2_pNsM%253A%3BdGvrMKwEB6k19M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.games-workshop.com%252FMEDIA_CustomProductCatalog%252Fm3850121a_1.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.games-workshop.com%252Fgws%252Fwnt%252Fblog.jsp%3B677%3B350

Here we see two riptides being smashed by the Imperials and Shadowsuns infantry being shredded by space marines. Note that its now the Imperials who are massively outnumbered by hoards of tau.

https://www.google.com/search?site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1440&bih=809&q=damocles+tau&oq=damocles+tau&gs_l=img.3...931.9210.0.9811.16.12.1.3.0.0.109.960.11j1.12.0....0...1ac.1.37.img..6.10.769.Dq5lZ5hZ8fI#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=nH4PLN9sNdl45M%253A%3BOLU-Bl0oPYtnEM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fimages.dakkadakka.com%252Fgallery%252F2014%252F3%252F10%252F592288-.jpeg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.dakkadakka.com%252Fdakkaforum%252Fposts%252Flist%252F584358.page%3B780%3B1040

Another images of a knight smashing hordes of tau tanks.

Some people have also said that the raven guard play a prominent role in undermining Shadowsuns tactics.

Plus they also pawn shadowsun in a personal fight.

http://ukitakumuki.deviantart.com/art/Black-Library-Damocles-440458999

Plus, to add insult to injury this is what two space marines can do to tau battlesuits.

http://ukitakumuki.deviantart.com/art/Black-Library-The-Shape-of-the-Hunt-440917248


Theres also another image which forms the front cover of the Damocles book that I can't find. But it basically has more space marines boltering down hordes of Tau like its nothing.



Now, I don't get how that at all fits with the canon they have established. This is a one sided battle where the MASSIVELY OUTNUMBERED Tau beat an Imperial army with strong defences and totally rout it. Theres nothing in that about titans and space marines pawning the tau at every turn; which is precisely what all of the artwork for this spells out. Lord forbid there be any lore where we don't space marines mowing down hundreds of aliens each like its nothing. Never mind the fact that theres nothing to imply that titans or two named chapters were present at Agrellan. This is a blatant retcon which is going to make this a pyhric victory for the Tau where they lose most of their army to space marines and Shadowsun is outwitted at every turn by the named marine characters. You know they'll do it.

I wouldn't mind if they did this with a battle they had made up for the Imperials to win. But altering one of the few times where tau actually win and diminish their success so you can focus on how awesome space marines are? No, the lore is clear. The Imperials get their arses handed to them. If any named chapters were their, which there shouldn't have been, then said companies should be wiped out to a man. It seems like Necrons are the only xenos allowed to kill space marines for some reason. You know that this is going to be the story of how 300 space marines hold off the entire Third Sphere Expansion by themselves and escape with only a handful of marine casualties.



edit - Has anyone read the book yet? When I get it I am probs going to come back and talk about whether this assumption was right or not.

Well to be fair the original idea of the battle is kinda ridiculously tilted in the Tau's favor. Although I will certainly accept (and encourage) the point that the Tau way of war does lend itself well to taking on opposing forces with greater numbers than themselves. I don't think they would be so successful in attacking a heavily fortified fortress type planet, especially since they don't really believe in siege warfare (despite what our current play-style may say about it on the tabletop, Tau are supposed to be all about precision strikes/ hit and run tactics).

That said, I would find it very amusing to actually read a unbiased account of IG troops coming face to face with Tau technology for the first time (and Tau coming face to face with the shier bloody minded tenacity and numbers of imperial forces). I imagine the first few engagements would be...enlightening for both sides.

As far as the actual topic at hand, GW loves to sell space marines. Anything that lets them sell space marines is a good business move as far as they're concerned.

[complete side rant, ignore this if you want]
The cover of Titanicus annoys me greatly every time I look at it. That's a shame since it's my favorite BL novel. There's a squad of space marines prominently displayed on the cover...not a single SM appears anywhere throughout the course of the book (I don't think there's even any CSM, just a traitor titan legion).

 dementedwombat wrote:
Well to be fair the original idea of the battle is kinda ridiculously tilted in the Tau's favor. Although I will certainly accept (and encourage) the point that the Tau way of war does lend itself well to taking on opposing forces with greater numbers than themselves. I don't think they would be so successful in attacking a heavily fortified fortress type planet, especially since they don't really believe in siege warfare (despite what our current play-style may say about it on the tabletop, Tau are supposed to be all about precision strikes/ hit and run tactics).

That said, I would find it very amusing to actually read a unbiased account of IG troops coming face to face with Tau technology for the first time (and Tau coming face to face with the shier bloody minded tenacity and numbers of imperial forces). I imagine the first few engagements would be...enlightening for both sides.

As far as the actual topic at hand, GW loves to sell space marines. Anything that lets them sell space marines is a good business move as far as they're concerned.

[complete side rant, ignore this if you want]
The cover of Titanicus annoys me greatly every time I look at it. That's a shame since it's my favorite BL novel. There's a squad of space marines prominently displayed on the cover...not a single SM appears anywhere throughout the course of the book (I don't think there's even any CSM, just a traitor titan legion).

The whole point is that the Tau win and beat the Imperium in an open battle and take a major fortress/hive world; as well as beat the superheavy tanks the Imperials used. There is no other battle in the Tau lore on that scale where they win. To take the ONLY example of this and make it more about Space Marines pawning tau of which there are already dozens of examples (particularly the Zeist campaign in the Space Marine codex). If you want to read bolter and lasgun porn then go read Courage and Honor or many of the other books where the tau are wiped out. There is absolutely no reason to retcon this into a tau phyric victory or defeat. If necrons are allowed to wipe out 400 ultramarines or 300 Imperial Fists I fail to see how the Tau would struggle to kill a company or half company of white scars. Never mind that the tau codex book they are only fighting guardsmen. Not space marines and titans as per new fluff. Its far from unreasonable to suggest that the tau can capture a major hive world with just guard defending it. Especially when other codex's have done similar feats as a regular occurrence (orks, nids, necrons).

Also this isn't the Damocles Gulf Crusade (I thought it was too originally) or first encounter. It is set during the 40k "present" during the third sphere expansion.

A Pyrrhic victory would mean the Tau killed enough Imperials to force them to abandon the world, but lost so many Tau that holding the world is impossible. That does not seem to be the case here, so this is not a Pyrrhic victory.

That the Tau suffer large casualties (relative to their total strength) is not unexpected... they are up against the combined might of Space Marines and the Imperial Guard, the latter, especially, known for fielding huge quantities of huge guns.

 Psienesis wrote:
A Pyrrhic victory would mean the Tau killed enough Imperials to force them to abandon the world, but lost so many Tau that holding the world is impossible. That does not seem to be the case here, so this is not a Pyrrhic victory.

That the Tau suffer large casualties (relative to their total strength) is not unexpected... they are up against the combined might of Space Marines and the Imperial Guard, the latter, especially, known for fielding huge quantities of huge guns.

Not really. The 6th edition codex description of the battle is pretty unequivocal about what happens. Its a total victory for the tau that lets them take the world despite being outnumbered 6:1. This isn't unusual. Theres plenty of stories of Imperial fortress or hive worlds being wiped out by, say, tyranid specialist organisms like the deathleaper, necrons using teleport technology and even the orks regularly overrun imperial worlds like Agrellan. Its far from unreasonable to have a single example of the tau owning guardsmen.

So no, I don't agree with you that this is some GW retcon to make the battle more sensible and in line with 40k lore. Essentially that boils down to saying that tau are weak and can't beat Imperial guard without taking heavy losses. Much less space marines. Ultimately the threat posed by the tau is meant to be in the same league as many of the other major factions; even if it is localized to the eastern fringe. Part of that has to be allowing stories which convey this threat and show the tau being able to do feats (taking a hive world) which are cheap and common fair for other factions. Nobody bats an eyelash when they hear that this hive fleet takes an Imperial world or wipes out a space marine chapter but you argue that its impossible for the tau to have a solid victory?

so basicly your objection is that there seems to be instances in the wider battles where the forces of the Imperium did well?





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
A Pyrrhic victory would mean the Tau killed enough Imperials to force them to abandon the world, but lost so many Tau that holding the world is impossible. That does not seem to be the case here, so this is not a Pyrrhic victory.

That the Tau suffer large casualties (relative to their total strength) is not unexpected... they are up against the combined might of Space Marines and the Imperial Guard, the latter, especially, known for fielding huge quantities of huge guns.

Not really. The 6th edition codex description of the battle is pretty unequivocal about what happens. Its a total victory for the tau that lets them take the world despite being outnumbered 6:1. This isn't unusual. Theres plenty of stories of Imperial fortress or hive worlds being wiped out by, say, tyranid specialist organisms like the deathleaper, necrons using teleport technology and even the orks regularly overrun imperial worlds like Agrellan. Its far from unreasonable to have a single example of the tau owning guardsmen.

So no, I don't agree with you that this is some GW retcon to make the battle more sensible and in line with 40k lore. Essentially that boils down to saying that tau are weak and can't beat Imperial guard without taking heavy losses. Much less space marines. Ultimately the threat posed by the tau is meant to be in the same league as many of the other major factions; even if it is localized to the eastern fringe. Part of that has to be allowing stories which convey this threat and show the tau being able to do feats (taking a hive world) which are cheap and common fair for other factions. Nobody bats an eyelash when they hear that this hive fleet takes an Imperial world or wipes out a space marine chapter but you argue that its impossible for the tau to have a solid victory?

no on the other hand no one bats an eyelash when those same battles with the tyranids, chaos etc show paintings of space mariens and guardsmen heoricly fighting in a grand last stand or something

The Tau *are* weak... compared to every other player on the galactic field, excepting maybe the various flavors of Eldar, who are weak for the same reasons. They lack the numbers, the technology and the resources to go toe-to-toe with the Imperium in most cases. The only reason the Tau still exist is because the Imperium has bigger fish to fry, and the Tyranids might do the Imperium's job for them anyway.

When Orks attack a Hive or Forge World, they do it with hundreds of millions if not billions of Greenskins, and all of the support tools at the Ork's disposal, like fighta-bommas, Stompas, Gargants, Squiggoths, and whatever looted Imperial (or other) tech they might bring along.

When Tyranids attack a world, they do it with trillions of organisms, and typically suffer horrendous losses until something like Deathleaper or Old One-Eye tips the scales in their favor and, like a tide, they flood that gap and then take the planet. Weeks and weeks of sieges and probing attacks suddenly translate into a victory achieved in days by the actions of one unique character.

When the Necrons attack a world, they do so through their wide range of technological advantages. Maybe they take over the planet's technological base and communications systems. Maybe they Mind-Shackle planetary leaders. Maybe they send Deathmark Assassins to eliminate the military commanders. Maybe they use Dolmen Gates to march 100,000 Warriors out of hyperspace and into the enemy's rear echelons.

So what we have in the original story is basically a glossing-over of the actual events. The Tau fought the Imperium, outgunned and outmaneuvered them, and eventually defeated them despite 6:1 odds. Funny that the text there never describes Tau casualties at all, and seems to suggest that the Tau take the world while suffering only 1 casualty (which causes the loss of an entire moon. Whoops!). That's preposterous.

BrianDavion wrote:
so basicly your objection is that there seems to be instances in the wider battles where the forces of the Imperium did well?





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
A Pyrrhic victory would mean the Tau killed enough Imperials to force them to abandon the world, but lost so many Tau that holding the world is impossible. That does not seem to be the case here, so this is not a Pyrrhic victory.

That the Tau suffer large casualties (relative to their total strength) is not unexpected... they are up against the combined might of Space Marines and the Imperial Guard, the latter, especially, known for fielding huge quantities of huge guns.

Not really. The 6th edition codex description of the battle is pretty unequivocal about what happens. Its a total victory for the tau that lets them take the world despite being outnumbered 6:1. This isn't unusual. Theres plenty of stories of Imperial fortress or hive worlds being wiped out by, say, tyranid specialist organisms like the deathleaper, necrons using teleport technology and even the orks regularly overrun imperial worlds like Agrellan. Its far from unreasonable to have a single example of the tau owning guardsmen.

So no, I don't agree with you that this is some GW retcon to make the battle more sensible and in line with 40k lore. Essentially that boils down to saying that tau are weak and can't beat Imperial guard without taking heavy losses. Much less space marines. Ultimately the threat posed by the tau is meant to be in the same league as many of the other major factions; even if it is localized to the eastern fringe. Part of that has to be allowing stories which convey this threat and show the tau being able to do feats (taking a hive world) which are cheap and common fair for other factions. Nobody bats an eyelash when they hear that this hive fleet takes an Imperial world or wipes out a space marine chapter but you argue that its impossible for the tau to have a solid victory?

no on the other hand no one bats an eyelash when those same battles with the tyranids, chaos etc show paintings of space mariens and guardsmen heoricly fighting in a grand last stand or something

Yes, there've never been big battles where the Imperium has won. Even though every codex and most black library novels are about this. To give examples, the book Courage and Honor has an ultramarines company and lone guard regiment wipe out a tau army on its own. You then have the Zeist battle which has the ultramarines lead a massive counter attack (in response to this battle in question BTW) and pawn a few tau worlds. There are countless battles where the Imperium wins with minimal loss. But next to none where the tau win an ownagebattle against the Imperium.

My complaint is that many other xenos races are allowed to have canon where they just win outright. The Tau though it seems aren't permitted to do so and so everyones fine with GW retconning the battle into bolter porn where they massacre most of the tau army by right of being space marines. Coz, you know, that one single battle where the tau take a hive planet is too OTT according to people like you. Right. Its not like all the other xenos races that's kind of normal. Especially if the opponents are just guard. But no, GW retcon to add lots of marines and titans so now the tau have to lose most of their army and die like bitches.

except thats not what happened. the Tau won a convicing victory, but given the numerical superiority of the Imperium there are going to be cases where locally the Imperium have the advantage. there will be occasional times, just for example, where the Tau commander proably needed to sacrifice a rear guard to protect the builk of his force etc.

Long story short. one does NOT win a military victory without casualties. ESPECIALLY when outnumbered 6 to 1.

yet again you talk about how other factions are given this and that, yet other factions suffer casualties when acheiving their victories. why would the Tau be any differnt?

Any time the imperial guard win a battle they do so with horrendous casualties. In the guard codex there's as much fluff about regiments that were wiped out to a man as there are regiments that triumph against overwhelming odds. Tyranids players have to be subjected to a myriad of stories where they lose in their own codex.

And you're complaining because the Tau don't get to god mod their way through the combined might of the guard and space marines on a heavily fortified hive world and actually *gasp* take causalties? Tau aren't special snowflakes they have to take their knocks like the rest of the 40k factions.

The guard never seem to be able to do anything agaisnt the Tau, that's annoying,

The tau codex says it's a brilliant victory. What else would it say? All codices are like that - completely one sided pieces of propaganda glorifying the race in question.

Want to know the truth? It was in all likelyhood an extremely tough and bitterly fought series of battles with massive gut churning and demoralising casualty lists and constant, repeated set backs. Shadowsun and her tau forces were probably outmanoevered by space marines (and guard!) multiple times who caused substantial casualties but who could not force a decisive victory. In the end though it was the tau that gained a memorable victory.

And the por'hui propaganda machine can't sell the real story to the masses! The golden child of the empire outmanoevered? Their elite warriors cut down by gue'la like wheat before a scythe? The presumably massive casualty lists from seizing a planet? So just like those folks in North Korea, they'll sell it as a magnificent victory where they crush their enemies and all glory to the empire! Triple the size of the enemy numbers, hide the tau own defeats and casualty lists,and sell it like a tremendous accomplishment. Onward brave soldiers to the next victory!

No war ever goes to plan. There will always be problems and set backs.

I will agree that the artwork seems pretty 1 sided for a battle that the Tau supposedly dominated the Imperium. So if this is the lore from the Tau codex, is there any other lore provided from the Imperium's point of view?

Could it be possible that the Tau codex entry isn't 100% accurate & in fact it misleads historical fact in order to glorify Shadowsun & give the Tau hope that they have a chance of beating the Imperium?

For example: The Imperial Guard/Ork codex entries for the Battle of Armageddon both share discrepancies that make their own side appear better than the other.

The Tau canonically spammed Riptides at Mugalath Bay. Of course they didn't take any casualties. Drones don't count in any of the numerical reports, by the way.

The Knights codex explains the battle as follows.

"Though the Imperial forces are hard pressed to hold out against the brilliant tactics employed by commander Shadowsun the timely arrival of several household detachments of Knights from House Terryn soon stems the tide...Only the Mass deployment of riptide battlesuits forces the Knights to cease these (counter)attacks, a course of action that ultimatly changes the course of the war"

BrianDavion wrote:
The Knights codex explains the battle as follows.

"Though the Imperial forces are hard pressed to hold out against the brilliant tactics employed by commander Shadowsun the timely arrival of several household detachments of Knights from House Terryn soon stems the tide...Only the Mass deployment of riptide battlesuits forces the Knights to cease these (counter)attacks, a course of action that ultimatly changes the course of the war"

Wait a second, didn't the OP just state that this is the first engagement of Riptides ever being used?

"at the vanguard of each strode the latest and mightiest Tau weapon, the XV104 Riptide Battlesuit. This was the first combat deployment of the Riptide, and they proved invaluable during the battle, using their agility to bypass defensive points and blowing apart Imperial Guard bunkers and tanks with their heavy weapons."

Does anyone else think its odd that an essentially prototype technology is being deployed in mass for this conflict? I'm pretty certain that they didn't know how combat effective these would be prior to seeing it in actual combat. Meaning they wouldn't have hundreds/thousands of these running around planetside because they would take a very long time to manufacture. Meanwhile, hive cities would have hundreds/thousands of Leman Russ/Chimera & probably over a hundred if not hundreds of Baneblade/Shadowsword & a handful of titans.

According to the novella, the 'mass deployment' of Riptides basically amounted to forty two Riptides, in teams of six.

Also, it was the first 'combat' deployment. The Riptides were probably very well tested before, so no prototypes.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Tau *are* weak... compared to every other player on the galactic field, excepting maybe the various flavors of Eldar, who are weak for the same reasons. They lack the numbers, the technology and the resources to go toe-to-toe with the Imperium in most cases. The only reason the Tau still exist is because the Imperium has bigger fish to fry, and the Tyranids might do the Imperium's job for them anyway.

When Orks attack a Hive or Forge World, they do it with hundreds of millions if not billions of Greenskins, and all of the support tools at the Ork's disposal, like fighta-bommas, Stompas, Gargants, Squiggoths, and whatever looted Imperial (or other) tech they might bring along.

When Tyranids attack a world, they do it with trillions of organisms, and typically suffer horrendous losses until something like Deathleaper or Old One-Eye tips the scales in their favor and, like a tide, they flood that gap and then take the planet. Weeks and weeks of sieges and probing attacks suddenly translate into a victory achieved in days by the actions of one unique character.

When the Necrons attack a world, they do so through their wide range of technological advantages. Maybe they take over the planet's technological base and communications systems. Maybe they Mind-Shackle planetary leaders. Maybe they send Deathmark Assassins to eliminate the military commanders. Maybe they use Dolmen Gates to march 100,000 Warriors out of hyperspace and into the enemy's rear echelons.

So what we have in the original story is basically a glossing-over of the actual events. The Tau fought the Imperium, outgunned and outmaneuvered them, and eventually defeated them despite 6:1 odds. Funny that the text there never describes Tau casualties at all, and seems to suggest that the Tau take the world while suffering only 1 casualty (which causes the loss of an entire moon. Whoops!). That's preposterous.

Gotta agree with this, and further add:

If there's any faction other than Space Marines that has plot armour it's Tau. Y'all'll have to forgive me for not shedding any tears over Tau not ROFLstomping all over a Fortress World.

When reading GW fluff, it's best to take it with a huge heaping of salt, the accounts of it vary from whose perspective it was written in.

From the Tau's point of view, it was a crushing victory with no losses and the destroyed the enemy. From the Imperial point of view, it was a hard fought battle which was very closely contested until the Tau spammed their "I'm better than you in every way" unit. I read it as if I was that armies citizen, I would rather hear about a hard fought battle that we just lost because the other team cheated rather than hear the other side of the story if that makes sense?

This is why I like the Eldar fluff and wish more 'perspectives' were as honest as their own for combat results. Eldar do win battles, but it is always with a great cost. Or they actually lose the battle, but achieved the objective they needed...be it an artifact or individual that needed to be removed(Imperial Armor 11 is a great example of this).

Space Marine fluff....where 1000 Marines stop the dedicated attack of 2 Craftworlds, with an Avatar...all from the makeshift defenses of fallen pillars. Where Space Marine Scouts wait in hiding to ambush Warp Spiders...because of the 'genius' that is the leader of the Marines...such crap.

You don't see main enemies of the Imperium like a 'Chapter Master' and two Chapters of marines wiped out by a small contingent of Eldar. The writers of Eldar fluff are simply better than such shoddy writing.

tomball0706 wrote:When reading GW fluff, it's best to take it with a huge heaping of salt, the accounts of it vary from whose perspective it was written in.

From the Tau's point of view, it was a crushing victory with no losses and the destroyed the enemy. From the Imperial point of view, it was a hard fought battle which was very closely contested until the Tau spammed their "I'm better than you in every way" unit. I read it as if I was that armies citizen, I would rather hear about a hard fought battle that we just lost because the other team cheated rather than hear the other side of the story if that makes sense?

True but book art doesn't tend to be propaganda of a particular faction, sadly (I'm a SM player by the way) it just tends to be bolter porn when the Astartes are involved.

Farseer Faenyin wrote:This is why I like the Eldar fluff and wish more 'perspectives' were as honest as their own for combat results. Eldar do win battles, but it is always with a great cost. Or they actually lose the battle, but achieved the objective they needed...be it an artifact or individual that needed to be removed(Imperial Armor 11 is a great example of this).

Space Marine fluff....where 1000 Marines stop the dedicated attack of 2 Craftworlds, with an Avatar...all from the makeshift defenses of fallen pillars. Where Space Marine Scouts wait in hiding to ambush Warp Spiders...because of the 'genius' that is the leader of the Marines...such crap.

You don't see main enemies of the Imperium like a 'Chapter Master' and two Chapters of marines wiped out by a small contingent of Eldar. The writers of Eldar fluff are simply better than such shoddy writing.

One of the reasons I'm very in favour of ret-conning Chapters to be 5 or 10,000 strong (Legions were after all roughly 100,000 strong). It would make their fluff exploits and their in-game abilities match up a little better. 1,000 super soldiers is still ludicrously small to take on whole armies and chapters rarely fight en masse anyway.

Agree on the Eldar fluff too, they have their strengths matched by their impending doom creating a tragic atmosphere that runs through all their fluff.

EmilCrane wrote:Any time the imperial guard win a battle they do so with horrendous casualties. In the guard codex there's as much fluff about regiments that were wiped out to a man as there are regiments that triumph against overwhelming odds. Tyranids players have to be subjected to a myriad of stories where they lose in their own codex.

And you're complaining because the Tau don't get to god mod their way through the combined might of the guard and space marines on a heavily fortified hive world and actually *gasp* take causalties? Tau aren't special snowflakes they have to take their knocks like the rest of the 40k factions.

The idea that the codexs of each army are propaganda is a little bit of an exaggeration. Its a list of their greatest triumphs and exploits. What would be the point of introducing an element of perspective?

Well the Tau 6th edition codex itself. The tau deploy a huge well led army with lots of riptides and win. Now, they "god mod" this because in that story its implied they are only fighting generic guardsmen. Not high quality named regiments like Catachans/cadians which can be seen in the newer artowork, nor is there any mention of the two named chapters being present and certainly no mention about titans being deployed. So this is a retcon which fundamentally changes the nature of the campaign and is designed to make the tau look bad and the Imperial factions look good. As the artwork above shows its just going to be more bolter porn where Imperial armies crush the tau. I fail to see how the act of capturing a single generic hive world with minimal losses is "OMG so broken". Its not unreasonable to have a sole example of this happening when every other codex is allowed to have examples where they simply own.

All this is going to do is turn the Tau victory into one where they barely manage to pull through and prove that they can't manage the simple feat of takinf a hive world. Something which every other faction in the game (even dark elder) is capable of doing. Incidently, theres a bit in the dark elder codex where they own the tau because they use the power through pain and it says how a single dark elder warrior could kill whole squads of tau single handed and they killed so many kroot they made glyphs you could see from orbit. Its normal fare to have instances where one codex armyowns another because the codex is a list of greatest victories.

Plus, that artwork is definitely biased and makes it look like the Imperials are winning easily.

Bobthehero wrote:The guard never seem to be able to do anything agaisnt the Tau, that's annoying,

Read Courage and Honour. Read Fire Caste. etc etc

There are very few novels where Imperial armies don't dominate the tau and where they aren't morphed into cannon fodder for the plucky heroes to kill.

The Forgeworld book about the Taros campaign is the exception and not the rule when it comes to the lore.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
This is why I like the Eldar fluff and wish more 'perspectives' were as honest as their own for combat results. Eldar do win battles, but it is always with a great cost. Or they actually lose the battle, but achieved the objective they needed...be it an artifact or individual that needed to be removed(Imperial Armor 11 is a great example of this).

Space Marine fluff....where 1000 Marines stop the dedicated attack of 2 Craftworlds, with an Avatar...all from the makeshift defenses of fallen pillars. Where Space Marine Scouts wait in hiding to ambush Warp Spiders...because of the 'genius' that is the leader of the Marines...such crap.

You don't see main enemies of the Imperium like a 'Chapter Master' and two Chapters of marines wiped out by a small contingent of Eldar. The writers of Eldar fluff are simply better than such shoddy writing.

Eldar fluff is on the opposite end of the spectrum, it's too gritty.

The Eldar lose so often, even within their own codex, that it makes no sense that they're even still alive as a faction. They literally lose the super majority of their battles. "Dying race" doesn't mean that you should just suck in general.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:


The idea that the codexs of each army are propaganda is a little bit of an exaggeration. Its a list of their greatest triumphs and exploits. What would be the point of introducing an element of perspective?

Well the Tau 6th edition codex itself. The tau deploy a huge well led army with lots of riptides and win. Now, they "god mod" this because in that story its implied they are only fighting generic guardsmen. Not high quality named regiments like Catachans/cadians which can be seen in the newer artowork, nor is there any mention of the two named chapters being present and certainly no mention about titans being deployed. So this is a retcon which fundamentally changes the nature of the campaign and is designed to make the tau look bad and the Imperial factions look good. As the artwork above shows its just going to be more bolter porn where Imperial armies crush the tau. I fail to see how the act of capturing a single generic hive world with minimal losses is "OMG so broken". Its not unreasonable to have a sole example of this happening when every other codex is allowed to have examples where they simply own.

All this is going to do is turn the Tau victory into one where they barely manage to pull through and prove that they can't manage the simple feat of takinf a hive world. Something which every other faction in the game (even dark elder) is capable of doing. Incidently, theres a bit in the dark elder codex where they own the tau because they use the power through pain and it says how a single dark elder warrior could kill whole squads of tau single handed and they killed so many kroot they made glyphs you could see from orbit. Its normal fare to have instances where one codex armyowns another because the codex is a list of greatest victories.

Rubbish.

Taking a hive works is a 'simple feat'? Lol.

Firstly expanding on the imperils assets to include some of their best troops doesn't hurt the tau, it only helps them. The tau still won, right? And now, not only did they not just win, they just won against the imperiums best assets.

I don't see how expanding on a one-line battle blurb makes the tau look bad. Which is the better victory?The equivalent of Utterly lolstomping their foes with god mode on. Or fighting, and winning against foes that matched them, or even outmatched them at times, that fought hard, didnt give in, and continually tried to counter the tau at every opportunity. Beating the latter is a true accomplishment, and a real mark if merit for Shadowsun and her cadres. The former is worse than the fanwank typically written by twelve tear olds.

^ This.

I think the "updated" version sounds like Shadowsun and her cadre really earned their accolades. They fought hard, they fought well, and they proved superior in grit, tenacity and tactics, and eventually carried the day.

 Psienesis wrote:
^ This.

I think the "updated" version sounds like Shadowsun and her cadre really earned their accolades. They fought hard, they fought well, and they proved superior in grit, tenacity and tactics, and eventually carried the day.

Then why is all the artowrk showing the tau being curbstomped and owned by smaller numbers of Imperials?

Take the big panoramic image of Agrellan. The main focus is the Knight titan ripping up a riptide whilst the infatry are staggered and dazed. You then see some stealthsuits being shredded by space marines. In the background, more riptides are being blown up by imperial weapons whilst a trio of knights is ignoring some crisis suits like they're buzzing insects. Theres very little in that image to imply or suggest that the Tau are achieving anything beyond horribly dying. Presumably this is a representation of when the Imperials sally out of Agrellan hive. The tau codex describes this as a disaster as the tau suppress the Imperials before Shadowsun counter attacks them; which routs the Imperial army in the codex. Given that she is in the pic and its of that battle that is likely what is being represented. Now, there is no suggestion in that art that the tau even have the feintest hope of winning that battle.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
^ This.

I think the "updated" version sounds like Shadowsun and her cadre really earned their accolades. They fought hard, they fought well, and they proved superior in grit, tenacity and tactics, and eventually carried the day.

Then why is all the artowrk showing the tau being curbstomped and owned by smaller numbers of Imperials?

Take the big panoramic image of Agrellan. The main focus is the Knight titan ripping up a riptide whilst the infatry are staggered and dazed. You then see some stealthsuits being shredded by space marines. In the background, more riptides are being blown up by imperial weapons whilst a trio of knights is ignoring some crisis suits like they're buzzing insects. Theres very little in that image to imply or suggest that the Tau are achieving anything beyond horribly dying. Presumably this is a representation of when the Imperials sally out of Agrellan hive. The tau codex describes this as a disaster as the tau suppress the Imperials before Shadowsun counter attacks them; which routs the Imperial army in the codex. Given that she is in the pic and its of that battle that is likely what is being represented. Now, there is no suggestion in that art that the tau even have the feintest hope of winning that battle.

except the knight codex implies this isn't a disaster UNTIL shadowsun deployed "mass quantites of riptides" so this is likely one of the knight sallies before the "riptide spam"

BrianDavion wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
^ This.

I think the "updated" version sounds like Shadowsun and her cadre really earned their accolades. They fought hard, they fought well, and they proved superior in grit, tenacity and tactics, and eventually carried the day.

Then why is all the artowrk showing the tau being curbstomped and owned by smaller numbers of Imperials?

Take the big panoramic image of Agrellan. The main focus is the Knight titan ripping up a riptide whilst the infatry are staggered and dazed. You then see some stealthsuits being shredded by space marines. In the background, more riptides are being blown up by imperial weapons whilst a trio of knights is ignoring some crisis suits like they're buzzing insects. Theres very little in that image to imply or suggest that the Tau are achieving anything beyond horribly dying. Presumably this is a representation of when the Imperials sally out of Agrellan hive. The tau codex describes this as a disaster as the tau suppress the Imperials before Shadowsun counter attacks them; which routs the Imperial army in the codex. Given that she is in the pic and its of that battle that is likely what is being represented. Now, there is no suggestion in that art that the tau even have the feintest hope of winning that battle.

except the knight codex implies this isn't a disaster UNTIL shadowsun deployed "mass quantites of riptides" so this is likely one of the knight sallies before the "riptide spam"

There are 3-4 riptides in that image. Thats pretty much riptide spam considering that another poster said they only had 42 in the tne camapign. This being just a small section of the battle with undoubtedly many more knight titans and space marines elsewhere owning the tau.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
^ This.

I think the "updated" version sounds like Shadowsun and her cadre really earned their accolades. They fought hard, they fought well, and they proved superior in grit, tenacity and tactics, and eventually carried the day.

Then why is all the artowrk showing the tau being curbstomped and owned by smaller numbers of Imperials?

Take the big panoramic image of Agrellan. The main focus is the Knight titan ripping up a riptide whilst the infatry are staggered and dazed. You then see some stealthsuits being shredded by space marines. In the background, more riptides are being blown up by imperial weapons whilst a trio of knights is ignoring some crisis suits like they're buzzing insects. Theres very little in that image to imply or suggest that the Tau are achieving anything beyond horribly dying. Presumably this is a representation of when the Imperials sally out of Agrellan hive. The tau codex describes this as a disaster as the tau suppress the Imperials before Shadowsun counter attacks them; which routs the Imperial army in the codex. Given that she is in the pic and its of that battle that is likely what is being represented. Now, there is no suggestion in that art that the tau even have the feintest hope of winning that battle.

The problem is, is that you're making a text-book case of judging a book by its cover. Quite often, the artist contracted to provide the artwork for any given work of fiction has, at best, a vague knowledge of the characters and the setting. They get instructions of "these guys are blue skinned and shorter than these other dudes, who are huge". This is how, in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series, Moraine is depicted as being, like, 4 feet tall. The artist was told she was "short"... and she is, but only in comparison to two dudes who are both six-feet-plus.

Also, the artwork might be Imperial propaganda. The Tau might not paint in a realistic manner for all we know. Maybe they only do Impressionist or Cubist art?