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So to make a wave serpent a slightly more fair vehicle I've come up with these adjustments. The serpent shield becomes more about supporting your other unit then destroying your opponent, and the ability to turn a wave serpent into an assault vehicle makes the army have more builds, seeing as the assault units are good, but they have trouble actually getting into combat. The only thing I've added that actually makes them more powerful is the ability cast psychic powers from within, but I think the danger I added to that will kind of balance that out a little bit.

Psychic Siphon (15 pts)
-Allows psychic powers to be cast from inside the vehicle to targets outside, but the range is reduced by 6", all ranges are measured from the vehicles turret. Additionally, the psyker will automatically suffer a Perils of the Warp if they fail a psychic test, these perils will also result in a crew shaken result (note this does not cause a loss of a hull point).

Assault Ramp (15 pts)
-Allows the vehicle to be used as an assault vehicle

Serpent Shields
-Same 2+ defensive ability
-Loses current shooting ability
-Gains;
Range 18” S4 AP5 Heavy 3, Ignores Cover, Blind, Pinning (Can't use defensive ability if it uses this)

How about changing the ability to ignore all incoming fire on a 2+ into just reducing the strength score of incoming fire to a maximum of 7?

Eh the Siphon seems to be pretty garbage over all and I don't see anyone taking it.

The ramp is probably going to be a favorite of people who want their banshees, wraithblades, and scorpions to get into assault in one piece.

I don't see anyone going for the shooting of the serpent shield though, and honestly it's description makes me thing of a rather weak but annoying template or torrent weapon.

I think changing the shooting option on the shield to 6-12", but allowing units that disembarked from it that turn to assault the unit that was shot as though the wave serpent was an assault vehicle would probably make almost everybody happy.

Ex: WS parks 6" away from a marine squad and disembarks the banshee squad onboard. The WS tags the marine squad with the shooting attack from the shield. The banshees now have the option of assaulting that marine squad even though the WS is not an assault vehicle.

The idea behind the Siphon is just to give some options other than running a farseer on jetbike (I know same price but more survivable inside a transport). Also the vehicle doesn't ignore all incoming fire, it just turns it from penetrating hits, to glances. The point behind the shield is that Banshees, and Wraithblades, don't have grenades, so what your hoping to do with the shield is pin and/or blind your opponent, it's not their to really hurt your opponent, it's there to boost your assault units. Also, the range was chosen because it is just at the edge of the max assault range of a unit that may jump out.

You could make it a torrent template... or something like that.

text removed.

keep it polite please.
Reds8n

I like the heavy 3, means it still needs to hit. I'm gonna try these rules thus weekend I'll let you all know how they work out.

danny1995 wrote:
So to make a wave serpent a slightly more fair

You are kidding right?

Wave serpents are fine, they do not need a buff such as assault ramps or anything else.

The assault ramps are an expensive upgrade, in an attempt to make people not just field minimum squads of Dire Avengers to parking lot the table. The big power of the Wave Serpent is the shield, which is the thing I nerf like crazy in this change.

 DeathReaper wrote:

danny1995 wrote:
So to make a wave serpent a slightly more fair

You are kidding right?

Wave serpents are fine, they do not need a buff such as assault ramps or anything else.

The problem with a lot of Eldar melee units is that they have no grenades or assault transports.

I do agree that the wave serpent is busted solid though.

For what you pay for it, it makes sense what it does.

Shorten the range of the shield, either add an assault ramp or lessen it's cost.

100+ points for a dedicated transport with nothing else on it is an investment.

Well the main one that doesn't have grenades is banshees (Striking Scorpions have them, Harlequins can, and Wraithblades don't care because they are a hearty unit of not dieing). The idea behind the pinning on the shields is to allow the Banshees to charge through terrain and not fight at initiative 1.

Make range of Serpent Shield 12", if the vehicle doesn't move in the movement phase (except pivoting) troops who disembark can charge that turn

I really wish we, as a community, would come up with some fair balance changes where GW went egregiously wrong. Stuff like the 2+ rerollable becomming a 2+/4+.

I wish we could just say 'Serpent Shells shooting is nerfed in this way', and run with it. Because I love Serpents for transports, and want to field a bunch. Falcons are fun, but very limited.

I like your ideas. I think I'm still in favor of simply calling it a 6" (or 12") range, and saying good enough (keep it simple), though.

So you want to pay 40+ points for a slowed devil fish. Devil fish at 80points is bad, it has 1 less side av, no shields but more weaponry once you get rid of the serpent shields attack function. THe shield is far less effective than what it was in 5th edition and people complained about the serpents being bad then. If you took away the shields attack orlimited it to 12/6" their would need to be a compensation in one way or anthoer. This could just easily be a point reduction. As for the assault ramp thing, think about this from fluff, landraider assault ramps are designed from the wave serpent model...

And as for the wait to get shot while inside the serpent that is just calling for bad rules. What happens when the serpent blows up after waiting, the unit by the rules will not be able to assault and have to wait another turn outsied. THis means you wasted your transport and the cc unit still has to endure a turn of fire but now you are getting to assault 1 turn later than normally.

 Slayer222 wrote:

And as for the wait to get shot while inside the serpent that is just calling for bad rules. What happens when the serpent blows up after waiting, the unit by the rules will not be able to assault and have to wait another turn outsied. THis means you wasted your transport and the cc unit still has to endure a turn of fire but now you are getting to assault 1 turn later than normally.

that's how things work in 6 ed if you haven't noticed

 Slayer222 wrote:
So you want to pay 40+ points for a slowed devil fish. Devil fish at 80points is bad, it has 1 less side av, no shields but more weaponry once you get rid of the serpent shields attack function. THe shield is far less effective than what it was in 5th edition and people complained about the serpents being bad then. If you took away the shields attack orlimited it to 12/6" their would need to be a compensation in one way or anthoer. This could just easily be a point reduction. As for the assault ramp thing, think about this from fluff, landraider assault ramps are designed from the wave serpent model...

And as for the wait to get shot while inside the serpent that is just calling for bad rules. What happens when the serpent blows up after waiting, the unit by the rules will not be able to assault and have to wait another turn outsied. THis means you wasted your transport and the cc unit still has to endure a turn of fire but now you are getting to assault 1 turn later than normally.

Mate slow down on how fast you type or get a new keyboard, you have far too many forgotten space typos for it to be reasonable.

Also wave serpents are excellent medium armour engagement tanks. Crap transports, but who uses them for that anyway?

I think what I'm going to do is keep the shooting the same as what I had before, and drop the assault ramp. Then I'll add a rule to the shield shooting called "Tagged; If all shots from the shield hit, a unit that disembarked this turn may charge the unit shot by this weapon." Would lend a small chance that you don't get the opportunity to charge. Also part of the reason Devilfish are junk is because they are an assault style transport for a shooting style army, I think a marine would kill to get their hands on a Devilfish (although they would probably get shot for being a heretic if they did so).

Scorp - my complaint is that it *should* be more transport and less battle tank.

Bharring wrote:
Scorp - my complaint is that it *should* be more transport and less battle tank.

Is scorp me?

I'll assume it is. I was being inane.

I don't think the serpent needs to change, I think eldar needs a new, open topped vehicle for it.

Well probably the easiest way to balance a serpent is just remove the option for it to take a scatter laser.

If you keep that I say make the shield a one shot deal. Youhave a shield and if you choose to fire it, it is gone..

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Scorp - my complaint is that it *should* be more transport and less battle tank.

Is scorp me?

I'll assume it is. I was being inane.

I don't think the serpent needs to change, I think eldar needs a new, open topped vehicle for it.

Like the Venom, which is supposed to be a Harlequin vehicle, rather than a DEldar one?

Balancing the wave serpent has been done in that it costs a lot more than a rhino et all.
Now making it fit a more transport role than as it is an IFV (Infantry Fighting Vehicle) is another matter.
If GW came up with a new lower cost transport that was also an assault transport that would be sweet and you would see far far less Wave Serpents.

If you look at why wave serpents are taken, they are taken because the troops need protection. If you have all rangers they suck, if you have guardian/dire avengers thats t3 4/5+ save running around, the only units that are survivable at that point are bikes and wraith units(that suffer from being slow/short range). If the troops would be more survivable and have better capabilities of combat than wave serpents would see a reduction because they are not one of the few choices eldar have, next ad in another dedicated transport like falcon(with an upgrade of some sort, they currently are sub par to most things) and maybe a cheap expendable open topped vehicle and boom the only armies that would have lots of serpent would be spam armies. Reduce the serpent to D3 hits and you can no longer spam it because it is not able to put out enough fire power to damage stuff.

You guys are overanalyzing it.

I think balancing it is simple as this:

Make the shield able to shoot once per game. After it shoots, the shield cannot do the 2+ shenanigans anymore.

I agree with herpguy. I think making the shield a one shot weapon is probably the simplest solution. Plus, it doesn't muck with its use as an anti-infantry, anti-light armor and anti-flyer weapon in a desperate straights. Reducing the weapon to a 6"-12" is great for those assault based lists but for those of us that use it for guardian lists, it kind of stinks.

Thanks zend0g. I don't think the answer is nerfing it into existence and/or overhauling it completely. Plus an overhaul makes it very hard for people to actually accept it as a house rule change.
With what I proposed it would still be very good, and very worth taking. It would just be tamed down so not so OP.

I said as much above that, one shot is likely the best fix though another is to remove the scatter laser as an option for the serpent, if you remove the twin linking the shield is much less powerful IME.

I respectfully (it's a good idea) disagree. Part of the problem with Eldar and Tau atm is their long range firepower decimating armies first turn. Limiting it to one shot does help balance the Serpent, but it retains the artillery style Alpha, whereas nerfing the range helps mitigate it while retaining the Serpent's resilient feeling.

(I usually ran them with 10 Avengers with Exarch in each, and two Far seers with one of the units, but I currently get complaints with even one of those now).

 felixander wrote:
Make range of Serpent Shield 12", if the vehicle doesn't move in the movement phase (except pivoting) troops who disembark can charge that turn

Seems a lot more fair and balanced than the present travesty Plus might get some Banshees into the game............

Reducing the weapon to a 6"-12" is great for those assault based lists but for those of us that use it for guardian lists, it kind of stinks

.

Then just use the rather awesome shield as its supposed to be providing good defence for the vehicle and helping to avoid stun and staggered results on the passengers - the gun element is only supposed to be used in Extremis.....................