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Inspired by a fluff-based weapons thread, I figured I'd do something similar.

Which flyer is the worst for its point cost? I've ranked them as I see them, but I figured I'd ask and see what everyone else thinks. FMCs are not included.

... and by worst, I mean "Least point-efficient flyer against a well-composed army of a random faction." Assume, for models with multiple layouts, you're using what you think is the most efficient load-out.

If I missed a non-FW option, let me know.

T Razorshark
T Sunshark
DA Dark Talon
O Burna-Bommer
E Hemlock Wraithfighter
DA Nephilim Jetfighter
N Doom Scythe
O Blitza-Bommer
GK Stormraven Gunship
IG Valkyrie Assault Carrier
O Dakkajet
SM Stormtalon Gunship
SM Stormraven Gunship
DE Razorwing Fighter
DE Voidraven Bomber
E Crimson Hunter
IG Vendetta Gunship
BA Stormraven Gunship
CSM Heldrake
N Night Scythe

The Night Scythe vs Heldrake was a hard choice... but in the end, being able to drop troops on an objective when the troops can't be hurt at all by destroying the flyer won out against durability and firepower.

Definitely has to be BOTH of the dark angels flyers. While the rules for the models aren't anything to write home about, the points cost has actually made me avoid buying what is otherwise a very impressive looking model.
If it were ~40 points less, i would consider it.
The blacksword missiles need to be improved. make them higher strength, like s8 ap2 or so.
This aircraft is also direly missing hover mode on both. that's supposed ot be the staple of imperial flyers.

the reason I say dark angels have the worst is due ot the fact that the ground-based air defense is laughable at best.

If we're counting Forge World, everything beats the Arvus. 75 points for an AV10 flyer, no weapons but can take either an Autocannon, 2x Heavy Stubbers, Multi-Laser or 2x Hellstrikes for 20-25pts. Downside, they always have to fire at BS1. Absolute crap.

I think the doomscythe is too low on the list it has some amazing cover busting abilities. Forgive me if I've read it wrong but if it's point is within the cover then it ignores the cover save. Also it can fire backwards if you. Use raw

Why put the Stormraven in three different spots? The only difference are the missiles and nobody takes these things for the missiles anyway.

The Ork Blitza-Bommer is up there for being a pretty terribad flyer. It's not cheap, has mediocre ranged weaponry and worst of all only has 2 really crappy bombs for it's dedicated role as a tank-busting bommer. Not only does it have a chance to blow yourself up instead of dropping one off (and often those results at least make you do more damage than the bombs themselves which says a lot about its capabilities) and even in the case you do drop a bomb you have a really low chance of blowing anything up, at most just making it lose a HP.

 Wilytank wrote:
Why put the Stormraven in three different spots? The only difference are the missiles and nobody takes these things for the missiles anyway.

They have different special rules.

 Wilytank wrote:
Why put the Stormraven in three different spots? The only difference are the missiles and nobody takes these things for the missiles anyway.

Psi-Shock missiles on GKs stormravens would disagree with you. That's the best reason to take the damn thing.

 buddha wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
Why put the Stormraven in three different spots? The only difference are the missiles and nobody takes these things for the missiles anyway.

Psi-Shock missiles on GKs stormravens would disagree with you. That's the best reason to take the damn thing.

I concur, the perils can't be "look out sir"'d and can't be stopped by invuln saves now. it spells doom to any gk, daemons or eldar jetseer squad.

 XdeadpoolX wrote:
I think the doomscythe is too low on the list it has some amazing cover busting abilities. Forgive me if I've read it wrong but if it's point is within the cover then it ignores the cover save. Also it can fire backwards if you. Use raw

I'm not sure how you figure it would ignore cover.

For the death ray, cover and los is determined from the death ray itself, not the first point on the ground. In this sense it functions like almost any other ranged weapon in 40k.

Both dark angel fliers have to take the cake as terrible. The nephilim lost missile lock on already crappy blacksword missiles, with only 1 TL lascannon on overpriced paper to try and redeem it. The dark talon does a number on infantry with a one time gimmick bomb. At leas the tau fliers have decent AA weapons(which are still pretty bad)

The GK raven costs more than the others, but the large blast psyker killer missiles, the ability to ignore shaken/stunned and psybolt make it quite deadly. The other ravens have decent missiles, of course the BA win with AP1.

Also, the windetta is far better than the stormraven if your going for sheer anti air. 3 TL lascannons on Av12 for that price is outright criminal. It also transports stuff.

I think the Ork Dakka jet needs to move in a positive direction. For its price tag and the amount of dakka it can put out can be game changing. Great at both anti-infantry and anti-flyer.

I also think the Tau flyer with the two Ion turrets needs to move more positive as well. Those turrets are awesome. The only reason the Tau flyers look bad is because everything else that can do a similar job in the codex are just that much better at it.

I've heard that Dark Angle flyers are held in ill regard. I personally haven't even seen one fielded. that's not a good sign.

Dark Angel's flyers are godly good compared to Blitza-Bomber.

You forgot the Tau Barracuda and Remoras. However, they are both pretty good.

The Tau Codex fliers are very bad, but look nice.

The DA fliers are not too useful, way too expensive, and fugly.

The Dark Angels, easily. The Dark Talon does so little and yet asks for so much.

Including forgeworld though, there is an Imperial flyer that has no weapons, costs way too many points, and only carries a handful of troops while having paper armor to boot and no special rules worth noting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Valkyrie wrote:
If we're counting Forge World, everything beats the Arvus. 75 points for an AV10 flyer, no weapons but can take either an Autocannon, 2x Heavy Stubbers, Multi-Laser or 2x Hellstrikes for 20-25pts. Downside, they always have to fire at BS1. Absolute crap.

That's the one.

It's only legitimate use is as a pretty set piece because it is a nice looking model.

Using it in an actual game to take up FOC spots is essentially pissing away your points and slots. In Apoc, it's still essentially pissing away your points for a flier that can't do anything.

I'd actually nominate the Arvus as a strong contender for the dubious honor of "worst unit in the game for it's slot and points cost", competing with the ignoble likes of the Pyrovore, the Penal legion, Zogwort, Old One Eye, Banshees, Nurglings, and Chaos furies.

 koooaei wrote:
Dark Angel's flyers are godly good compared to Blitza-Bomber.

And the blitza-bomber is godly compared to both tau aircraft.

Blitz bomma.

Nothing else comes close.

 Ascalam wrote:
Blitz bomma.

Nothing else comes close.

You were saying?

At least that doesn't kill itself.

Non-FW then, since you insist.

I love the blitza model, but the rules bite hard.

I love the model but the dakka jet kinda sucks. Autocannon havocs took me out once needing 6s to hit. Another time, came on the board, Felt good about my waaagh run and then vector struck for instant boom boom. At av10, I dunno. It kinda sucks. I was going to buy a second one but I think it's probably not worth it

 Ascalam wrote:
Blitz bomma.

Nothing else comes close.

I'm sorry I couldn't hear you over the sound of my razorshark, and sunshark doing absolutely nothing.

 Ascalam wrote:
At least that doesn't kill itself.

Non-FW then, since you insist.

I love the blitza model, but the rules bite hard.

I dunno, but 75 points for a model with zero killing ability, inferior transport ability to a rhino, AV10, and no special rules is a recipe for something that hurts your list by just being there.

Johnnytorrance wrote:
I love the model but the dakka jet kinda sucks. Autocannon havocs took me out once needing 6s to hit. Another time, came on the board, Felt good about my waaagh run and then vector struck for instant boom boom. At av10, I dunno. It kinda sucks. I was going to buy a second one but I think it's probably not worth it

The Dakkajet pumps out a lot of pretty accurate (for the Orks) firepower at the respectable strength of S6. It can put out enough shots to threaten even Stormravens and Nightshroud bombers through death via glancing and can pulverize most FMCs.

Meanwhile the Forgeworld Fighta and Fighta-Bommer needs to use Rokkits to do any damage to any fliers worth a damn due to using Big Shootas. It does have better armor though.

I do run some homebrewed FW ork planes with supa-shootas (for a reasonable points bump) and I think that when FW updates their Ork units that their fliers should make the switch to Supa-shootas. It doesn't seem too unbalancing from what I've tested.

Defensive heavy stubbers on FW fliers are also confusingly pointless since they can at best, glance flying vehicles (I suppose they can threaten FMCs though), The Avenger strike fighter for example, when pimped out comes in with lascannons, missile launchers, an AP3 7 shot megabolter...and a defensive heavy stubber that couldn't protect it from a Dakkajet or a Hellblade if it had all game long to try.

Just...what's the point? Seriously?

 Gitsmasher wrote:

 Ascalam wrote:
Blitz bomma.

Nothing else comes close.

I'm sorry I couldn't hear you over the sound of my razorshark, and sunshark doing absolutely nothing.

"Look kids, the Tau player thinks he has it rougher than Orks."

I think that if we allow Forge World into this, the Arvus is the undisputed champion. WIthout it, it's coming down to a slapfight between the Nephilim and Blitza Bomma. That isn't to say that the other options are good, just that there are many different shades of bad before you hit the bottom.

 Ascalam wrote:
At least that doesn't kill itself.

Non-FW then, since you insist.

I love the blitza model, but the rules bite hard.

At least your bomber has bombs.

 Kain wrote:

 Ascalam wrote:
Blitz bomma.

Nothing else comes close.

You were saying?

Whuuuuuut! It's a snow speeder!

 Jancoran wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Ascalam wrote:
Blitz bomma.

Nothing else comes close.

You were saying?

Whuuuuuut! It's a snow speeder!

It costs you 75 points, it carries less people than a Rhino, it's as fragile as a Trukk, and if you want a gun (one autocannon, TL heavy stubbers, a multilaser, or two hellstrikes) you have to pay 20-25 points and they all fire at BS1.

How can the valkyrie be better than the doom scythe? That makes no sense. S10 Ap1 beam is pretty good.

The valkyrie, on the other hand, isn't. It's a transport, which means it's not awful, of course, but it comes armed with... a multilaser and two hunter killer missiles. Woot. I think that's possibly the worst firepower to cost ratio of the options here. You can then upgrade their guns a bit, but then that costs more points.

I mean, the nephilim at least has real guns on it.

You cannot compare fliers like this...

Do you spend time comparing the leman russ to the wave serpant?

Tau fliers arent crap, path finders are cheaper and force multipliers.
Dark angel fliers have their uses. But bikes and librarians do a better job.

The "good" fliers are good because they fill a niche in most games.
Vendettas arent great at bs3. But guard really do not have anything else in fast attack and it holds 12 models. Which makes it better for the army overall, not better compared directly.

 Ailaros wrote:
How can the valkyrie be better than the doom scythe? That makes no sense. S10 Ap1 beam is pretty good.

The valkyrie, on the other hand, isn't. It's a transport, which means it's not awful, of course, but it comes armed with... a multilaser and two hunter killer missiles. Woot. I think that's possibly the worst firepower to cost ratio of the options here. You can then upgrade their guns a bit, but then that costs more points.

I mean, the nephilim at least has real guns on it.

It also comes armed with the Tesla Destructor as well. Not quite sure how the Doomscythe got ranked so low...