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I have used the wyvern in a couple of games now, in squadrons of 2 and they have been quite amazing. Both times have been against tau battlesuits and broadsides and both times the two wyverns have put a hurting on them. The three suits in each squad plus all the drones gave me plenty of area to drop the small blast markers, resulting in hits 95% of the time, especially after the reroll for twin linked, even out of LOS! Between both of the two wyverns 8 small blast markers i was getting 8-10 wounds per round of shooting thanks to shred. Even at 2+ save, some of those are going to get through. When I first read about the wyvern I was not to impressed with the stats, but after using it I have to say I am a believer. I was thinking of taking three of them to see what more damage I can do! Anyone else had success with this new unit?

I've read that processing all the rolls , hits and wounds is very tedious

 minigun762 wrote:
I've read that processing all the rolls , hits and wounds is very tedious

This. But ignoring that, it looks extremely effective at killing light-to-mid level infantry blobs.

I can imagine, the TFC is hardcore even out of LOS too, and you don't get a TL, so I have no doubt they rape face despite seeming mediocre at first glace to the endless hordes of whinging buggers!

I have been sold, I have only been using one but for the first time I have used the tactic of sniping with barrage. (unintentionally the first time) then i realized how powerful this could be.

But even without that, its great at hitting enemies bunched up for any reason at all.

The thing that sold me was how well it did againt the 2+/3+ battlesuits and broadsides. I knew it would wreck face against low save hordes, but seeing it pile up the wounds on tough infantry was impressive.

Are you just getting lucky? Are your opponent's failing to displace? Are your opponent's refusing to target them?

If only there were a way to talk objectively about what the results of die rolls are, rather than relying on tiny, subjective data sets...

I do not think it is luck. As long as you target a large enough unit you are going to hit, expecially if you have LOS. Once you hit, the other small blasts just start piling up and shred starts piling on the wounds. I have been hiding them out of LOS though so it is hard for the enemy to target them. It is a small sample size, but so far I like what I see. Will there be a game where they totally whiff? Yes, but so far so good.

The problem is people don't realize you don't need to ignore armor to put a major hurting on something.

These seem really good. I already hate TFCs with a passion and Whverns show even more how green tide will never ever be able to be a thing anymore.

 Ailaros wrote:

If only there were a way to talk objectively about what the results of die rolls are, rather than relying on tiny, subjective data sets...

Welcome to Dakka... it's almost as if you've never been here before...

I think that the important thing to note, is that the Wyvern has a couple of intrinsic positive characteristics;
- The ability to lay down punishment straight away
- The ability to do this to anything not under a roof
- The ability to do so reliably
- All for a very cheap price tag.

I'm going to be combining units like this & the triple TL-lascannon vendetta with a) A primaris and b) units that really benefit from twin-linking (basilisk?).

I played a wraith wing list with a semi good IG list and the Wyvern put down so much hurt on the wraiths killed over the game at least 10 of them + warriors, the new IG codex is codex twin linked if you are willing to go for psykers and inquisitors.

And why didn't the enemy player target the Wyvern squadron well you are going to be fielding a 50man blob with las cannons, a Manticore and a Pask Squadron which performs like champs.

The new IG is silly strong.

Well, nothing left for me to do in this thread other than apologize. I fail.

I suppose you could take 9 and make sure your enemy never clumps up in cover again. With Valks being FA and Russes available in HQ, you could pull it off. The rest of your army would just need to take care of heavy stuff.

Just looked at this things stats. It just had to ignore cover, didn't it?

Now if you run hordes, and this thing appears, you lose. Simple as that. If it didn't ignore cover, you could potentially hide out in ruins until the wyvern was dealt to, but as it is, nah man they're pissing on Green Tide's grave with this gak

 Dakkamite wrote:
Just looked at this things stats. It just had to ignore cover, didn't it?

Now if you run hordes, and this thing appears, you lose. Simple as that. If it didn't ignore cover, you could potentially hide out in ruins until the wyvern was dealt to, but as it is, nah man they're pissing on Green Tide's grave with this gak

Just hope orks have 5+ armour in the next codex I guess.

What does ignore cover really do, though? It's Ap6.

Most cover is only 5+, which that, or better, is what most people's Sv is. Ruins are 4+ cover, sure, but barrage weapons also don't work properly in ruins at all, so that's out. The only cover that might actually matter is an ADL, but ADLs don't give area terrain, so ALL barrage weapons have the ignores cover special rule here.

I guess orks with a KFF would be unduly hurt by this, but what else is? And don't give me dumb answers like hormagaunts deciding to hide in cover.

Well apparently 2+ and 3+ models in cover are taking a beating too.

I know someone who did the analysis and found that with a BS of 3 a blast template will score on average about half the number of hits that you originally put under it. With the re-roll that is probably closer 75%. Given there are 4 such shots form the beast, having just 4 models under the original starting point means something like 12 hits on the unit from a single wyvern, 24 from a pair and 36 from a trio. Even with AP 6, not many units can escape dozens of hits unharmed.

Where this will shine is reducing a lot of units with 3+ and 4+ cover to their 5+ armour saves.

Mathhammer indicates the Wyvern is indeed rather decent against MEQs (which are 3+), and that is without counting "ignores cover" in.

But a lot of this hinges on how many models you can hit with the small blasts. People who say Wyverns were very good, how tightly packed were the targets? How many hits per turn, typically? This is really the most important factor, as I see it. In my calculations I've assumed with 3 hits against MEQs per turn from 1 Wyvern.

If I get a free evening over I will write a MATLAB simulation for artillery scattering, but until then, I'd really like to hear about your statistics.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Just looked at this things stats. It just had to ignore cover, didn't it?

Now if you run hordes, and this thing appears, you lose. Simple as that. If it didn't ignore cover, you could potentially hide out in ruins until the wyvern was dealt to, but as it is, nah man they're pissing on Green Tide's grave with this gak

Tell me about it. TFCs are already bad enough. I've had too many cases where TFCs pretty much wipe a 30 man blob of orks per turn, it's just silly. I don't know why every codex now is getting so much anti-horde weaponry, as if times weren't bad enough for them. Even if they gave orks the rumored FnP(6+) in the new codex it wouldn't really help against these things.


Alairos, ignores-cover on AP6 hurts a lot of things. Cultists, most ork units, and other things only have 6+ armor. Plus it screws over the many multitudes of 5+ armor units that rely on ADLs, hunkering down in ruins, going to ground in area terrain, etc. to stay alive.

 herpguy wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
Just looked at this things stats. It just had to ignore cover, didn't it?

Now if you run hordes, and this thing appears, you lose. Simple as that. If it didn't ignore cover, you could potentially hide out in ruins until the wyvern was dealt to, but as it is, nah man they're pissing on Green Tide's grave with this gak

Tell me about it. TFCs are already bad enough. I've had too many cases where TFCs pretty much wipe a 30 man blob of orks per turn, it's just silly. I don't know why every codex now is getting so much anti-horde weaponry, as if times weren't bad enough for them. Even if they gave orks the rumored FnP(6+) in the new codex it wouldn't really help against these things.


Alairos, ignores-cover on AP6 hurts a lot of things. Cultists, most ork units, and other things only have 6+ armor. Plus it screws over the many multitudes of 5+ armor units that rely on ADLs, hunkering down in ruins, going to ground in area terrain, etc. to stay alive.

Ignore cover also ignores area terrain and forces models with a 5+ or 4+ to use their armor instead of going to ground for a 3+ cover. AP6 ignore cover is far better than ap5 without ignore cover.

Hey look! Alairos wants to ignore things that are good and try argue that they aren't! It's the Vendetta all over again, color me surprised. You aren't cool for hating stuff other people like, and trying to convince them not to like it or say that it performs well.

Just seriously... both you and Peregrine turn every thread you guys post in into a shitshow. I would almost say your the same person because of how annoying you both are.

As for the results of the Wyvern, I'm not surprised that it did well against battle suits. Tau players tend to overestimate their durability.

Welcome to what Thudd Gun users have known for a long time.

 Ailaros wrote:
What does ignore cover really do, though? It's Ap6.

Most cover is only 5+, which that, or better, is what most people's Sv is. Ruins are 4+ cover, sure, but barrage weapons also don't work properly in ruins at all, so that's out. The only cover that might actually matter is an ADL, but ADLs don't give area terrain, so ALL barrage weapons have the ignores cover special rule here.

I guess orks with a KFF would be unduly hurt by this, but what else is? And don't give me dumb answers like hormagaunts deciding to hide in cover.

Exactly. You make a lot of 4+ or 3+ cover saves back to their original 5+ armor and a lot of things die. I learned that "ignores cover 6+" is not the important thing. The important thing is ignores cover. Sure, "ignore cover 6" sounds lame, how many things have 6+ save? Well, that is not what is important. "Ignores cover" is what is important. making the average(4+) or bad (5+) roll their normal armor save versus that 4+ or 3+ cover adds up to a lot of extra kills.

I played a game against some dark angels bike librarian in cover at night from long range, and yada yada yada,, he had a 2+ cover save thanks to it all. The Wyvern shot and took a wound off of him, thanks to the ignore cover. It turned his 2+ cover save back to a 3+ armor, even though it is only "ignores cover 6". That is what it is all about.

I don't get it. It is a blast marker that ignores cover. So spread out or don't people do it anymore?

I haven't had too large an impact with a single TFC, because my opponents are always spreading out with maximum distance between the models.

Which one do you think is better though, TFC or Wyvern?

Pak40 is right, but you kinda poorly explained it. The AP 6 isn't what makes it good, it's what makes it not completely ridonkculous. Ignore cover let's it downgrade saves, then the massive number of his it generates creates the wounds, which overwhelm the newly reduced save. At the moment, a green tide is hurt, and your rear objective grabbing unit is hurt in another codex. DE have some iissues but they were likely counting on FNP anyway. This is very effective but only totally wipes out a couple things. Ergo, great unit. If it had a lower AP, you'd have something like a heldrake that starts on the board and can fire out of line of sight at which point there would be a lot of table flipping.

It's a solid unit that is strong but not overwhelming. I look forward to cursing at them as they rain fiery death on my guardians, and I get excited cause one makes his Armor save

It's a solid unit that is strong but not overwhelming. I look forward to cursing at them as they rain fiery death on my guardians, and I get excited cause one makes his Armor save

Completely agree... It doesn't seem broken and whilst I am nervous about facing it with my nids I know I can deal with it. Ignoring cover is a strong capability in 6th, this though is offset by the high ap and small blast/scatter.

Might have problems with multiples which I guess will be the most likely scenario. Guess I'll need more crones then.

Naw wrote:
I don't get it. It is a blast marker that ignores cover. So spread out or don't people do it anymore?

I haven't had too large an impact with a single TFC, because my opponents are always spreading out with maximum distance between the models.

Which one do you think is better though, TFC or Wyvern?

If you look at 3 models that are all 2" from each other they form a triangle where the center point can catch 3 models under a small pie. A hit on a flip from a follow up shot will catch 3. Rerolls to hit is huge with multi barrage. 3 wyverns will average 15 hits per 6 hits generated by 2 TFC.

 Ailaros wrote:
Are you just getting lucky? Are your opponent's failing to displace? Are your opponent's refusing to target them?

If only there were a way to talk objectively about what the results of die rolls are, rather than relying on tiny, subjective data sets...

Aliaros, cant you calm down? He just said how good it worked for him so far and asked if Wyverns worked for other people too.

You know, its becoming tedious to see you jump into every thread about IG or Wyvern and with more and more aggresive zeal preach against it. I have nothing against different opinions, but in this thread its just pure spite and acid. You remind me why I put Peregrine to ignore list (and I almost never use Ignore lists in discussion forums). Which sucks, because I think you have sometimes interesting opinions and give some useful POVs... But there is certain level of "you are wrong, explain yourself and no dumb answers!" attitude from which is discussion changed into annoyin douchbaggery.

 schadenfreude wrote:

Naw wrote:
I don't get it. It is a blast marker that ignores cover. So spread out or don't people do it anymore?

I haven't had too large an impact with a single TFC, because my opponents are always spreading out with maximum distance between the models.

Which one do you think is better though, TFC or Wyvern?

If you look at 3 models that are all 2" from each other they form a triangle where the center point can catch 3 models under a small pie. A hit on a flip from a follow up shot will catch 3. Rerolls to hit is huge with multi barrage. 3 wyverns will average 15 hits per 6 hits generated by 2 TFC.

That is not entirely true. If your opponents unit is deployed into a single rank with maximum 2" spacing, you will get 1 hit for the initial blast, and perhaps 2 per blast after that, generating 7 hits, which against MEQ would result in 5-6 wounds or 2ish dead marines per Wyvern, provided my quick math isn't silly.