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Hey guys, I know there are plenty of talk regarding the 7th ed rumors, I just wanted to make a point that has stuck out to me. In my humble opinion the BRB isn't a bad entertainment value due to the fact that it only lasted two years. Given that the BRB was roughly the cost of a video game, I'd argue we've gotten more hours of enjoyment out of it than most people would in a video game, and in my opinion 75$ for two years of entertainment isn't a bad thing... I'm really not sure why so many are up in arms about this. Nobody is being forced to purchase this, much like no one is forced into any hobby. I know the rules are pretty much a mandatory purchase for people that want to play with the updated and most current rule set, but 75$ over two years really isn't terrible. It's certainly cheaper than many things, i.e. going to the movies over the course of two years, etc. etc.

I'm not advocating GW at all, and I know the community is upset about a lot of things regarding GW, but the price point over two years hardly seems like good argument to me. Thoughts?

You're noticing how good of a value 40k is because you're adding the cost OVER TIME to your calculations!?







Seriously, though, I played about 60+ games of 40k since 6th ed dropped. That makes the rules outgo something like $1.25 per game. And that doesn't include the time spent reading it or analyzing it, nor does it count any time in the future I'll spend re-reading the fluff or looking at the pretty pictures again.

It will be hard to say until we actually know what's in it. If it's a combination of the current rules, FAQs, and the additional releases like Escalation, so people who already have them can keep using them without issue, then it's not really any issue.

If it's a new rule edition, the value of the cost is very simple to break down. If we were playing any other tabletop model game, how often and how much do we need to buy rules for them? I know I've been having a perfectly good time playing BFG for like, a decade, without needing to shell out for a new core rulebook.

Let's wait if the 7th edition book actually replaces 6th ed or is nothing more than a compilation of the BRB, SA and Esc in one...
I agree that the price isn't necessarily terribly if you used it for two full years, but let's not forget that you also need codices, models and more to actually play the game. Also, what about those who bought the BRB like a month ago? They'll probably feel screwed over.

Then again I didn't buy it so I don't exactly have something to complain about

 Ailaros wrote:
You're noticing how good of a value 40k is because you're adding the cost OVER TIME to your calculations!?

-imagesnip-

Seriously, though, I played about 60+ games of 40k since 6th ed dropped. That makes the rules outgo something like $1.25 per game. And that doesn't include the time spent reading it or analyzing it, nor does it count any time in the future I'll spend re-reading the fluff or looking at the pretty pictures again.

How lovely for you. Meanwhile those of us who have to carefully plan our purchases to afford this hobby are now faced with the choice of either suspending all our active projects for a couple of months or more, or being stuck with outdated rules for however long it takes to put together the extra cash.

Sorry, there's no white knighting this one away; other companies are giving their rules away for free, GW are either using an edition change to push through fixes to 6th which should be provided gratis via FAQs, or to prop up their flagging sales before the end of year financials by putting out a product you literally can't do without if you want to keep playing. Neither is acceptable or justifiable, and "cost over time" is a particularly poor attempt at the latter; you might have gotten what you consider satisfactory value from this edition, someone else might have been deployed with the military, working on an oil rig, or just living somewhere with a low player count and only managed to get in a couple of games, so by your rationale each of those games cost £22.50 each and GW provide terrible value for money.

Yodhrin wrote:Meanwhile those of us who have to carefully plan our purchases to afford this hobby are now faced with the choice of either suspending all our active projects for a couple of months or more, or being stuck with outdated rules for however long it takes to put together the extra cash.

You can always choose to keep playing 6th, you can always choose to buy the cheap rulebook that comes from the starter kit, and you can always choose to visit a certain website based in Sweden and get the rules for free.

I don't know what massive projects are going to be offset by a rule book purchase/download.

Yodhrin wrote:Sorry, there's no white knighting this one away

Easy.

I've gotten about 200 hours of entertainment at least in some part related to the cost of the rulebook. I'd like to see how many hours of entertainment I can get out of a $75 bottle of scotch.

Other game companies give away free rules, or price them very cheaply? Certainly, and I can go buy a bottle of vodka for $6. Does that invalidate anyone's enjoyment of $75-per-bottle scotch?

Buy a copy of the book with a few friends. Everyone pays a bit and you all got a book. I really don't see the problem.

And yeah, while the codices are ridiculously overpriced, they are valid for years to come.

Rules wise, the BRB is good. The problem is mostly with codices that invalidate the core rules (ignore cover, skilled riders, re-roll everything).

Cost wise, I have no problem with paying for the books (except for the poor formatting on the eBook/iBook versions). I object to the model pricing because they've moved to low cost plastics while tripling their prices, even on very old model designs. For the longest time the plastics were the cheap alternative to pewter. But now they're charging $35 for five plastic models, which would've gotten you twenty models in 3rd edition (inflation adjusted), and independent vendors still offer models at those reasonable prices. So their prices clearly aren't a function of costs.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Buy a copy of the book with a few friends. Everyone pays a bit and you all got a book. I really don't see the problem.

And yeah, while the codices are ridiculously overpriced, they are valid for years to come.

That used to be the case but GW are now on a new kick people are not buying models so they are forcing us to buy books to use our models, so I would not be shocked if we get a new codex every two years with 90% the same rules but just different enough that you have to buy it.

They are scrambling to keep profits steady by any means instead of looking at why business is shrinking and acting to fix it.

 Ailaros wrote:

I've gotten about 200 hours of entertainment at least in some part related to the cost of the rulebook. I'd like to see how many hours of entertainment I can get out of a $75 bottle of scotch.

Since we're relying on useless anecdotes for our arguments here, I've logged 524 hours on Planetside 2, which is a free-to-play video game.

hobojebus wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Buy a copy of the book with a few friends. Everyone pays a bit and you all got a book. I really don't see the problem.

And yeah, while the codices are ridiculously overpriced, they are valid for years to come.

That used to be the case but GW are now on a new kick people are not buying models so they are forcing us to buy books to use our models, so I would not be shocked if we get a new codex every two years with 90% the same rules but just different enough that you have to buy it.

They are scrambling to keep profits steady by any means instead of looking at why business is shrinking and acting to fix it.

You always had to buy books to play the game. I say it again: pool the books. 40€ for a codex is ridiculously overpriced, yeah. Pool the book then. Buy it with a few friends and pay ~10€ or less for the book on your own. 10€ for a book, even if it's only valid for 2 years, would be a pretty darn good deal.

 Sigvatr wrote:

hobojebus wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Buy a copy of the book with a few friends. Everyone pays a bit and you all got a book. I really don't see the problem.

And yeah, while the codices are ridiculously overpriced, they are valid for years to come.

That used to be the case but GW are now on a new kick people are not buying models so they are forcing us to buy books to use our models, so I would not be shocked if we get a new codex every two years with 90% the same rules but just different enough that you have to buy it.

They are scrambling to keep profits steady by any means instead of looking at why business is shrinking and acting to fix it.

You always had to buy books to play the game. I say it again: pool the books. 40€ for a codex is ridiculously overpriced, yeah. Pool the book then. Buy it with a few friends and pay ~10€ or less for the book on your own. 10€ for a book, even if it's only valid for 2 years, would be a pretty darn good deal.

No it won't because as a group your still being ripped off, £30 for a book is insane you don't pay that for books of any other kind.

Same with pdfs they take very little effort to make but they way over charge.

Releasing a new edition instead of just giving us free FAQs is a blatant cash grab from a company that's becoming infamous for cash grabs.

I don't think anyone would want to group up , unless it is for something like Inqusition or Tau codex . If someone just wants to see the rules , he will download it and you can't go to a store and say that all 4 of you play with coteaz and tau cadre formation , but only one codex between you all. No shop owner would let it go , that is if he let people play with stuff they can't buy in his store.

The new BRB doesn't have to be a rip off , if it has a ton of rules changes . 6th wasn't a copy pasta of 5th . But if 7th is suppose to be 6th+escalation and stronghold everyone had to buy to use , then we end up with wasted cash.And if someone had good builds or units in stronghold&escalation , then maybe the rip off won't hurt as much . But if someone didn't that maybe more of a problem.


Am more worried about them chaging the ally system. If they nerf battle brothers , I'll end up with useless models , which isn't fun considering my new AM codex made some of my units unusable already.

hobojebus wrote:

No it won't because as a group your still being ripped off, £30 for a book is insane you don't pay that for books of any other kind.

Erm couldnt let that be uncommented. There were a lot of books especially in the university that i had to pay A LOT more than £30 for.

Your point still stands the 40k books are indeed very expensive. To a point where at least i personally wouldnt collect all of them. I know people that do though and they are happy each time a new 40k book gets released. But to be fair all of them have more than only "above average" disposable income.

 Ailaros wrote:

Yodhrin wrote:Meanwhile those of us who have to carefully plan our purchases to afford this hobby are now faced with the choice of either suspending all our active projects for a couple of months or more, or being stuck with outdated rules for however long it takes to put together the extra cash.

You can always choose to keep playing 6th, you can always choose to buy the cheap rulebook that comes from the starter kit, and you can always choose to visit a certain website based in Sweden and get the rules for free.

I don't know what massive projects are going to be offset by a rule book purchase/download.

Yodhrin wrote:Sorry, there's no white knighting this one away

Easy.

I've gotten about 200 hours of entertainment at least in some part related to the cost of the rulebook. I'd like to see how many hours of entertainment I can get out of a $75 bottle of scotch.

Other game companies give away free rules, or price them very cheaply? Certainly, and I can go buy a bottle of vodka for $6. Does that invalidate anyone's enjoyment of $75-per-bottle scotch?

I already explained why your argument is bunk in the post you selectively quoted from, so how about you do me the basic courtesy of actually addressing that counterpoint rather than just making the same assertion over again? Why is your experience more applicable than the experience of someone who played few games and so got terrible value? Or take it the other way, hypothetically; imagine GW begin putting out editions at whatever pace you would consider excessive and unjustifiable, then imagine someone with more money and free time than you dismissing your experience as irrelevant because they can afford the increased pace and they play a game every day and so still "only" pay your $1.25 a game. Now do you grasp why "feth you Jack, I got my rulebook" is a daft measuring stick?

As for the rest; my options for gaming are the local club, who will move to the new edition as they always have in the past even when people were moaning about how awful it was, or the local GW store, who are hardly likely to fine with playing an old edition on their tables. If the rumours this discussion is based on are correct, there won't be a mini-rulebook in the starter box, just a pamphlet with scenario-specific stats and rules for the models in the box, so we're back to full-price hardback or nuffin'. Neither of my options for gaming are going to be happy with people using "questionably sourced" copies of the rules. My projects might not be "massive", but they're what I can afford, and GW springing a new edition on us in the middle of their usual cycle means I get to have half a hobby for a few months, paint or play, either or. You of course are perfectly free to give zero feths about my circumstances, or indeed anyone else's, but the fact that your circumstances mean GW's unnecessary behaviour won't affect your enjoyment is not sufficient to make GW's behaviour objectively acceptable and everyone else's experience invalid.

You're not the only one who feels this way! As a whole, it's how I justify the absolute cost of 40k as a hobby. Relative to other forms of entertainment and the number of hours of enjoyment, it's one of the cheapest things I could do. Just think about the cost of going to a theme park.

Hours/£, GW is cheap relative to Alton Towers and most single player video games. Of course that doesn't mean there are even cheaper forms of entertainment, I strongly recommend people go and buy the equivalent cost of a new codex in second hand books, rather than start a new army, you'll educate yourself and get a better price per hour of entertainment.

(EDIT: oops, accidentally exalted my own post, is there a way to undo that? TBH I've no idea what exalting even does...)

Makumba wrote:
I don't think anyone would want to group up , unless it is for something like Inqusition or Tau codex . If someone just wants to see the rules , he will download it and you can't go to a store and say that all 4 of you play with coteaz and tau cadre formation , but only one codex between you all. No shop owner would let it go , that is if he let people play with stuff they can't buy in his store.

That's why you play in a club, not at a store

 Sigvatr wrote:

Makumba wrote:
I don't think anyone would want to group up , unless it is for something like Inqusition or Tau codex . If someone just wants to see the rules , he will download it and you can't go to a store and say that all 4 of you play with coteaz and tau cadre formation , but only one codex between you all. No shop owner would let it go , that is if he let people play with stuff they can't buy in his store.

That's why you play in a club, not at a store

Sometimes clubs are in stores...

Yodhrin wrote:I already explained why your argument is bunk in the post you selectively quoted from, so how about you do me the basic courtesy of actually addressing that counterpoint rather than just making the same assertion over again?

I didn't address it because it does nothing of the sort.

Your claim is that you haven't gotten your money's worth, and thus 40k is a bad value. You're the one extrapolating from personal experience and claiming it's objective reality. Meanwhile, however much value one gets, it is certainly possible to get a lot more value out of 40k than a lot of other things, something which you don't seem to understand, so you're throwing away a reasonable argument by incorrectly calling it a mere assertion.

If it looks like I was dismissing your comment, it's because I was. Because your comment boils down to nothing more than "it's expensive for me, thus it can't be a good value to you".

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

I've gotten about 200 hours of entertainment at least in some part related to the cost of the rulebook. I'd like to see how many hours of entertainment I can get out of a $75 bottle of scotch.

Since we're relying on useless anecdotes for our arguments here, I've logged 524 hours on Planetside 2, which is a free-to-play video game.

Sure, and you won't believe how many times I've gotten to have sex with my wife, and she hasn't charged me a dime.

Does that make 40k a bad value?

 Ailaros wrote:

Yodhrin wrote:I already explained why your argument is bunk in the post you selectively quoted from, so how about you do me the basic courtesy of actually addressing that counterpoint rather than just making the same assertion over again?

I didn't address it because it does nothing of the sort.

Your claim is that you haven't gotten your money's worth, and thus 40k is a bad value. You're the one extrapolating from personal experience and claiming it's objective reality. Meanwhile, however much value one gets, it is certainly possible to get a lot more value out of 40k than a lot of other things, something which you don't seem to understand, so you're throwing away a reasonable argument by incorrectly calling it a mere assertion.

If it looks like I was dismissing your comment, it's because I was. Because your comment boils down to nothing more than "it's expensive for me, thus it can't be a good value to you".

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

I've gotten about 200 hours of entertainment at least in some part related to the cost of the rulebook. I'd like to see how many hours of entertainment I can get out of a $75 bottle of scotch.

Since we're relying on useless anecdotes for our arguments here, I've logged 524 hours on Planetside 2, which is a free-to-play video game.

Sure, and you won't believe how many times I've gotten to have sex with my wife, and she hasn't charged me a dime.

Does that make 40k a bad value?

HAHAHAHHA not in a way that she would give you a reciept for

 Ailaros wrote:

I didn't address it because it does nothing of the sort.

Your claim is that you haven't gotten your money's worth, and thus 40k is a bad value. You're the one extrapolating from personal experience and claiming it's objective reality. Meanwhile, however much value one gets, it is certainly possible to get a lot more value out of 40k than a lot of other things, something which you don't seem to understand, so you're throwing away a reasonable argument by incorrectly calling it a mere assertion.

If it looks like I was dismissing your comment, it's because I was. Because your comment boils down to nothing more than "it's expensive for me, thus it can't be a good value to you".

Actually, yeah, when you put it in terms of time over money, 40k's probably been the best value for entertainment I've gotten out of just about anything I do.

Date night: $100 or so, 6-8 hours
Movie at movie theatre: $16 or so, 2 hours
AAA VIdeo Game: $60, 6-10 hours
Terraria: $10, 50+ hours
EVE Online: $76, 300 hours (according to steam, but that's exaggerated)
Bottle of Scotch: $60-100, 4 hours (would be six, but i'm deducting for the hangover)
Night at a bar: $80, and hours unknown because I wake up at home wondering what happened.
40k Rhino, $40, 3 hours when I paint it, and 4 hours every time I use it.

40k wins hands down.

Don't forget to add in the cost of new 7th edition codex for your army, plus any supplements that you bought that are now out of date. Plus any data slates. Heaven forbid you bought any of the special editions, which is exactly why I don't - once the new edition comes out they are worthless.

Plus I don't play much, maybe 1 game a month if I am lucky. So I am just getting a good grasp of the rules and they are going to change them on me in less than 2 years. That's crap.

I have to agree with Ailaros on this one.

Yes, it sucks having to spend money but that's the nature of this specific hobby.

I don't get why people don't lose their mind when video game companies release sequels as this is no different*.


* - I am assuming that this is different enough to justify being called a new version, then again, I know tons people who spend $60 a year on the newest version of Madden or NHL games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

We wrote:
Don't forget to add in the cost of new 7th edition codex for your army, plus any supplements that you bought that are now out of date. Plus any data slates. Heaven forbid you bought any of the special editions, which is exactly why I don't - once the new edition comes out they are worthless.

Plus I don't play much, maybe 1 game a month if I am lucky. So I am just getting a good grasp of the rules and they are going to change them on me in less than 2 years. That's crap.

Special editions are collectors versions. You really can't complain about the cost of them as you made a choice to pay that extra amount.

If you want to look at it like that you can say your expansion (codex) is given a free update to the game sequel (7th ed) until which time that they make a sequel to the expansion (new codex).

Again, assuming they release FAQs again.

We wrote:
Don't forget to add in the cost of new 7th edition codex for your army, plus any supplements that you bought that are now out of date. Plus any data slates. Heaven forbid you bought any of the special editions, which is exactly why I don't - once the new edition comes out they are worthless.

Plus I don't play much, maybe 1 game a month if I am lucky. So I am just getting a good grasp of the rules and they are going to change them on me in less than 2 years. That's crap.

Yeah, but those costs occur as time is still increasing, so the entertainment/cost ratio stays consistent for an entire life-cycle of a rules set, and that's still not fair, as most of the core of your army doesn't (usually) change from edition to edition.

So to model it, assuming you don't buy anything except the rules and an occasional couple boxes to keep your stuff current when new rules come out, your cost/time chart would be ever decreasing with occasional spikes that, in theory, should always be smaller each time, effectively, even with price hikes, because time is tricky like that.

I feel like a bad person, following this line of thinking.

 Mywik wrote:

hobojebus wrote:

No it won't because as a group your still being ripped off, £30 for a book is insane you don't pay that for books of any other kind.

Erm couldnt let that be uncommented. There were a lot of books especially in the university that i had to pay A LOT more than £30 for.

Your point still stands the 40k books are indeed very expensive. To a point where at least i personally wouldnt collect all of them. I know people that do though and they are happy each time a new 40k book gets released. But to be fair all of them have more than only "above average" disposable income.

Hyperbole (/haɪˈpɜrbəliː/ hy-pur-bə-lee;[1] Greek: ὑπερβολή hyperbolē, "exaggeration") is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally. (from Wikipedia because i'm too lazy to write it myself)

Being in uni i would of thought you'd of been familiar with hyperbole, of course there are more expensive books such as The First Book of Urizen, William Blake which sold for millions, or the Gutenberg bible.

But if you buy a hardcover of most books you'll spend £16, most will be substantially thicker than a GW book, colour printing does not add an additional £14, most of the lore and alot of the units are copy and pasted from previous editions so we cant say dev costs bumped up the price that much and anyone who plays csm like me knows they clearly didn't put that much effort into that codex.

Even the black library stuff is way over priced for what it is, GW are not giving good value for money and its offensive when people white knight and tell us we should be happy.

The only reason I'd be annoyed with a new edition after only 2 years is that previously a much cheaper rulebook would last you ~5 years, and I bought the BRB on the assumption that 6th ed would too.

hobojebus wrote:

 Mywik wrote:

hobojebus wrote:

No it won't because as a group your still being ripped off, £30 for a book is insane you don't pay that for books of any other kind.

Erm couldnt let that be uncommented. There were a lot of books especially in the university that i had to pay A LOT more than £30 for.

Your point still stands the 40k books are indeed very expensive. To a point where at least i personally wouldnt collect all of them. I know people that do though and they are happy each time a new 40k book gets released. But to be fair all of them have more than only "above average" disposable income.

Hyperbole (/haɪˈpɜrbəliː/ hy-pur-bə-lee;[1] Greek: ὑπερβολή hyperbolē, "exaggeration") is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally. (from Wikipedia because i'm too lazy to write it myself)

Being in uni i would of thought you'd of been familiar with hyperbole, of course there are more expensive books such as The First Book of Urizen, William Blake which sold for millions, or the Gutenberg bible.

But if you buy a hardcover of most books you'll spend £16, most will be substantially thicker than a GW book, colour printing does not add an additional £14, most of the lore and alot of the units are copy and pasted from previous editions so we cant say dev costs bumped up the price that much and anyone who plays csm like me knows they clearly didn't put that much effort into that codex..

Wow, pretty much all of my books in university were in the $80 to $150 range. Looking at Amazon at some of those books today, they are still the same price. Not sure if they are super cheap in the UK or something, but 16 pounds is a major discount.

I'm glad people are agreeing with my point.

hobojebus wrote:


Being in uni i would of thought you'd of been familiar with hyperbole,

native speaker
noun
a person who has spoken the language in question from earliest childhood.

Since im not one of them sometimes stuff like irony, sarcasm or hyperbole doesnt translate to me as easy as in my native language. I hope my comment didnt hurt your feelings too much

hobojebus wrote:

Hyperbole (/haɪˈpɜrbəliː/ hy-pur-bə-lee;[1] Greek: ὑπερβολή hyperbolē, "exaggeration") is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally. (from Wikipedia because i'm too lazy to write it myself)

Being in uni i would of thought you'd of been familiar with hyperbole, of course there are more expensive books such as The First Book of Urizen, William Blake which sold for millions, or the Gutenberg bible.

But if you buy a hardcover of most books you'll spend £16, most will be substantially thicker than a GW book, colour printing does not add an additional £14, most of the lore and alot of the units are copy and pasted from previous editions so we cant say dev costs bumped up the price that much and anyone who plays csm like me knows they clearly didn't put that much effort into that codex.

Even the black library stuff is way over priced for what it is, GW are not giving good value for money and its offensive when people white knight and tell us we should be happy.

Forums convey text, not meaning. You're also being snide.

Also, have a list of books released in the last 90 days that cost more than a GW rulebook.

Hah, one of those is a 25 page paperback for more than $200.

Thicker indeed!