Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 05:55:16
Subject: Assaulting out of Reserve
|
 |
Confessor Of Sins
|
Naw wrote:Luckily the model/unit that came from reserves cannot leave the unit it is joined to, making it illegal for it to join another unit.
The IC might be in reserves alone... He's a unit, sure, but he can't well leave himself - he's perfectly free to join another unit if he happens to move close enough.
Otherwise I have to agree that it's legal RAW but probably against the spirit of the rules.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 08:58:45
Subject: Assaulting out of Reserve
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
So a lone IC is not a unit by itself but a .. what?? Automatically Appended Next Post: Seriously, do tell me what my bike CM is when he is on his own. Shall I just ignore all rules that are for units?
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/19 09:00:30
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 10:47:34
Subject: Assaulting out of Reserve
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
He is a unit, but has no unit he can leave. He cannot leave himself, only join another unit, losing his "unit" status.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 12:29:15
Subject: Assaulting out of Reserve
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
I read that rule to mean that he also can't form/become part of a new unit on the turn he arrived from reserve alone.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 12:35:36
Subject: Assaulting out of Reserve
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
There is no language present that prohibits that, or even lets you infer that.
You are prohibted from leaving your unit, not from joining a new unit. As long as you can join without first having left - like a lone IC can - you can indeed join a unit from reserves.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 13:25:52
Subject: Assaulting out of Reserve
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun
|
However, does P39 not chime in at this point? I would argue that the 'may not charge' limitation is an on-going special effect. So whether the original unit ceases to exist or not, the character is still subject to the 'may not charge' limitation, which does carry over to him as a model.
So yes he may join another unit, but then prevents that unit from charging in the assault phase.
Cheers
Andrew
|
I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!
Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 14:07:54
Subject: Assaulting out of Reserve
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
nosferatu1001 wrote:There is no language present that prohibits that, or even lets you infer that.
You are prohibted from leaving your unit, not from joining a new unit. As long as you can join without first having left - like a lone IC can - you can indeed join a unit from reserves.
Pg 39: "Joining and Leaving a Unit
An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit,
either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in
reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined."
Pg 124: "If an Independent Character has joined a unit in reserve, it
cannot leave the unit whilst in reserve, and it cannot choose to
leave the unit on the turn it arrives from reserve."
Okay, so the rules are a bit funky here. From the looks of it, though, only if he is attached to another unit is he disallowed from leaving.
However...
Pg 10: "In your turn, you can rnove any of your units - all of them
if you wish - up to their maximum movement distance."
So that IC coming alone from reserves cannot move at all. Luckily, pg 3:
"The models that make up your Warhammer 40,000 army
must be organised into 'units'."
"A unit usually consists of several models
that have banded together, but a single, powerful model, such as
a lone character,[...] is also considered to be a unit in its own right."
Which brings us again to the issue of not being able to leave a unit before joining another one, which is forbidden clearly by the rules.
So no, the IC cannot join another unit, even if he is solo, on the turn he comes from reserves.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 14:13:50
Subject: Assaulting out of Reserve
|
 |
Tea-Kettle of Blood
Adelaide, South Australia
|
An Independent Character does not and can not leave its own unit.
|
Ailaros wrote:You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 17:56:09
Subject: Assaulting out of Reserve
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Naw - he is a unit. No issue there. However joining another unit is not him leaving his own; it simply disappears, reappearing if the character then leaves.
Your rules quotes do not, in any way, support your conclusion. The rules are as I laid them out
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 19:06:49
Subject: Assaulting out of Reserve
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun
|
nosferatu1001 wrote:Naw - he is a unit. No issue there. However joining another unit is not him leaving his own; it simply disappears, reappearing if the character then leaves.
Your rules quotes do not, in any way, support your conclusion. The rules are as I laid them out
And the point about ongoing special effects?
Cheers
Andrew
|
I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!
Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 19:36:53
Subject: Assaulting out of Reserve
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Those that affect model, ie the IC, function as before. Anything that applied to the IC unit would no longer apply, while attached, as the IC unit no longer exists.
The restriction is on the IC leaving the unit, and ona unit declaring a charge. Neither acts in any way to stop a lone IC joining a unit already on the table and then assaulting
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 20:48:09
Subject: Assaulting out of Reserve
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
To me it is clear that in order to join another unit, the IC first has to leave his own. That unit no longer exists and in effect the IC has left his previous unit.
I am sure there are no definitions in the rulebook for many things and dissolving a unit in various ways is one of them.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 22:15:13
Subject: Assaulting out of Reserve
|
 |
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
|
Naw wrote:To me it is clear that in order to join another unit, the IC first has to leave his own. That unit no longer exists and in effect the IC has left his previous unit.
I am sure there are no definitions in the rulebook for many things and dissolving a unit in various ways is one of them.
How does the IC leave coherency from himself?
|
LVO 2017 - Best GK Player
The Grimdark Future 8500 1500  6000 2000 5000
"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21 |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 23:14:45
Subject: Assaulting out of Reserve
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun
|
nosferatu1001 wrote:Those that affect model, ie the IC, function as before. Anything that applied to the IC unit would no longer apply, while attached, as the IC unit no longer exists.
The restriction is on the IC leaving the unit, and ona unit declaring a charge. Neither acts in any way to stop a lone IC joining a unit already on the table and then assaulting
I disagree, for example, if the IC is subject to hallucinations, what you are saying is that by joining another unit the hallucinations no longer affect the IC because the unit suffering the effects no longer exists? This obviously can't be right, so persistent effects must affect the models contained in the unit, as it is stipulated on p39, and the effects stay with the model.
Cheers
Andrew
|
I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!
Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 23:18:31
Subject: Assaulting out of Reserve
|
 |
Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
|
That raises the following question: In the Hallucination example, would you allow the other Models in the Unit being Joined to shoot at a target?
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/19 23:26:27
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 23:49:09
Subject: Assaulting out of Reserve
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun
|
Yes, because p39 covers this by saying that persistent effects being brought to the unit stays with the 'bringing' model. The effects don't transfer.
Here's another one, endurance. This is cast on a unit, not a model, so by Nos' arguments if it is cast on an IC and that IC then joins a unit, the effects are lost, as the unit it was cast on no longer exists.
Cheers
Andrew Automatically Appended Next Post: Question, as a thought has just occurred. Why are we having these arguments when a new edition is just about to hit?
Cheers
Andrew
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/19 23:57:21
I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!
Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/20 02:23:20
Subject: Assaulting out of Reserve
|
 |
Tea-Kettle of Blood
Adelaide, South Australia
|
Can you even imagine 5 days of YMDC with no arguments?
|
Ailaros wrote:You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/20 04:59:00
Subject: Assaulting out of Reserve
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
Elric Greywolf wrote:Naw wrote:To me it is clear that in order to join another unit, the IC first has to leave his own. That unit no longer exists and in effect the IC has left his previous unit.
I am sure there are no definitions in the rulebook for many things and dissolving a unit in various ways is one of them.
How does the IC leave coherency from himself?
That has no bearing on this issue. In order to join a new unit the IC must have left a previous one. It is not specified what that means.
How about this scenario:
IC and other models enter from reserves, IC moves within 2" of another friendly unit, staying in coherency of the old unit as he is not allowed to leave. That unit gets intercepted and all but IC are killed. Is the IC now part of another unit since he is alone? He might be scoring and a troops option. The unit he is nearby is an elite choice.
And to respond to Andrew, what else is there to do while waiting?
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/20 06:44:20
Subject: Assaulting out of Reserve
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Naw wrote: Elric Greywolf wrote:Naw wrote:To me it is clear that in order to join another unit, the IC first has to leave his own. That unit no longer exists and in effect the IC has left his previous unit. I am sure there are no definitions in the rulebook for many things and dissolving a unit in various ways is one of them. How does the IC leave coherency from himself? That has no bearing on this issue. In order to join a new unit the IC must have left a previous one. It is not specified what that means. That is an assumption, unless you can prove it. The rules on page 39 state the IC unit no longer exists (and reappears when the IC leaves a joined unit) , not that he has left himself. How does he move out of coherency with himself? Prove it. Naw wrote:How about this scenario: IC and other models enter from reserves, IC moves within 2" of another friendly unit, staying in coherency of the old unit as he is not allowed to leave. That unit gets intercepted and all but IC are killed. Is the IC now part of another unit since he is alone? He might be scoring and a troops option. The unit he is nearby is an elite choice. And to respond to Andrew, what else is there to do while waiting? He is not allowed to leave the unit, so stays a member of that unit until the complete end of the phase (and now into shooting). Same as any other time you shoot out a unit from around an IC.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/20 06:44:32
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/20 07:51:07
Subject: Assaulting out of Reserve
|
 |
Tough Tyrant Guard
|
AndrewC wrote:Yes, because p39 covers this by saying that persistent effects being brought to the unit stays with the 'bringing' model. The effects don't transfer.
Here's another one, endurance. This is cast on a unit, not a model, so by Nos' arguments if it is cast on an IC and that IC then joins a unit, the effects are lost, as the unit it was cast on no longer exists.
Cheers
Andrew
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Question, as a thought has just occurred. Why are we having these arguments when a new edition is just about to hit?
Cheers
Andrew
I agree with this, when the unit has a rule or a tag it means all it's models do. Many special rules, and rules in general are applied to a 'unit' but the IC as a model retains them and does not share them when joining a unit.
Page 39 of the IC rules under independent characters and ongoing effects the first example given is soul blaze, which is suffered by the unit the example notes if the IC leaves both he and the unit continue to to be effected. - This would be impossible if the model did not also carry this rule, as he is no longer part of the 'unit' which the rule is tagged to.
Based on the next paragraph, if he then joined another different unit, he would still be effected, but the rest of the unit would not.
Unit is just a short hand for a particular group of models. Soul Blaze is applied to a group of models. That group of models can not charge after arriving from reserves.. Joining / Leaving does not take any of this away, as the IC rules state with 'ongoing effects'..
As then for charging, if a model in a unit is forbidden from taking an action but the unit is given permission, the unit can not take that action.
As for rule debates, well, unless the 7th scraps the phrase part of the unit, or gives *even more* details and examples then 7th IC's will be in the same mess.
|
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2014/05/20 07:59:53
It's my codex and I'll cry If I want to.
Tactical objectives are fantastic |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/20 09:32:28
Subject: Assaulting out of Reserve
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Have you found a rules reference for your c laim that the IC must leave "himself" first, before joining? How do I measure this 2" coherency gap, please, given I have to measure between two models
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/20 09:45:52
Subject: Assaulting out of Reserve
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
nosferatu1001 wrote:Naw wrote: Elric Greywolf wrote:Naw wrote:To me it is clear that in order to join another unit, the IC first has to leave his own. That unit no longer exists and in effect the IC has left his previous unit.
I am sure there are no definitions in the rulebook for many things and dissolving a unit in various ways is one of them.
How does the IC leave coherency from himself?
That has no bearing on this issue. In order to join a new unit the IC must have left a previous one. It is not specified what that means.
That is an assumption, unless you can prove it. The rules on page 39 state the IC unit no longer exists (and reappears when the IC leaves a joined unit) , not that he has left himself. How does he move out of coherency with himself? Prove it.
Yes, it is my assumption as the IC cannot belong to two units at the same time, so logically he must leave the first one. Pg 39 also does not state the IC unit no longer exists (and reappears when the IC leaves a joined unit) so why do you argue that it does???
There are practically no rules whatsoever to govern a lone IC leaving a unit. By the rules: In order to join a unit, an Independent Character simply has to move so that he is within the 2" unit coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their movement phase.
RAW, my Bikemaster cannot leave the unit and go solo as there are no rules telling me how he creates a new unit all by himself. Page 3 does not solve this problem either. On the contrary, it demands that models [..] must be organized into 'units'.
So we have to make assumptions and thus what I wrote above seems as the most logical conclusion at least to me.
However, it is stated that If an Independent Character does not intend to (or cannot) join a unit, it must (where possible) remain more than 2" away from it. That to me also reads that as there is a restriction for the IC to not leave its old unit, he is not allowed to move within 2" of a new unit.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Naw wrote:How about this scenario:
IC and other models enter from reserves, IC moves within 2" of another friendly unit, staying in coherency of the old unit as he is not allowed to leave. That unit gets intercepted and all but IC are killed. Is the IC now part of another unit since he is alone? He might be scoring and a troops option. The unit he is nearby is an elite choice.
And to respond to Andrew, what else is there to do while waiting?
He is not allowed to leave the unit, so stays a member of that unit until the complete end of the phase (and now into shooting). Same as any other time you shoot out a unit from around an IC.
So we agree that there is a step of leaving a unit?
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Have you found a rules reference for your c laim that the IC must leave "himself" first, before joining? How do I measure this 2" coherency gap, please, given I have to measure between two models
He doesn't "leave himself", I have no idea what that means.
Edit: Some quotation problems.
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/20 09:51:24
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/20 10:25:59
Subject: Assaulting out of Reserve
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Naw - so, you are assuming he must leave the IC unit (himself, in case that wasnt clear) despite it not being written that way.
I gues spage 39 needs explaining, again.
You are told the IC joins, and is anormal member of the unit for ALL rules purposes. Ergo the IC unit cannot exist - if it does, you are NOT treating the IC as a normal member for all, just SOME, purposes
then it tells you that, when the IC leaves, he again becomes his own unit. Meaning the unit "IC" reappears.
This is what page 39 says. Note I didnt use quote marks? That tells you i was not quoting the rules, but parsing their meaning into a more concise and useful form.
So, again. Prove you have to leave the IC unit, fulfilling the criteria for doing so, becore you can join another unit. That includes measuring for 2" coherency to your own model, something entrely impossible.
Until then I will go down the rules supported path.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/20 11:00:41
Subject: Assaulting out of Reserve
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun
|
I'm curious Nos, are you now agreeing that the IC can't assault in the turn he arrives from reserves?
Cheers
Andrew
|
I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!
Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/20 11:16:20
Subject: Assaulting out of Reserve
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
No. i am disagreeing with the notion that an IC has to leave themselves before they can join another unit. This is not only not written anywhere in the rules, it isnt needed if you follow page 39
The restriction is "Unit A cannot assault"; Unit B, which contains a member of unit A but is most emphatically NOT Unit A, CAN assault (barring other restrictions not relevant here)
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/20 11:30:35
Subject: Assaulting out of Reserve
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun
|
So, please can you cite where it is permissible for a unit who contains a model that can't assault, to assault?
Cheers
Andre
|
I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!
Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/20 11:31:37
Subject: Assaulting out of Reserve
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Where is the model restricted?
I can see the restriction on UNit A, but I am not assaulting with Unit A but Unit B. Please cite where the restriction on Unit B arises wrt unit A
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/20 11:35:17
Subject: Assaulting out of Reserve
|
 |
Tea-Kettle of Blood
Adelaide, South Australia
|
Continuous effects, page 39?
|
Ailaros wrote:You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/20 11:44:48
Subject: Assaulting out of Reserve
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Yes, but that isnt an effect on the model, but on the unit declaring an action.
the IC model in the unit is not declaring a charge, the unit is.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/20 11:51:36
Subject: Assaulting out of Reserve
|
 |
Tea-Kettle of Blood
Adelaide, South Australia
|
So absolutely no unit effects are ongoing? Such as Soul Blaze?
|
Ailaros wrote:You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" |
|
 |
 |
|