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 Palindrome wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:

Now watch his gallery for more 40k to come :p

That doesn't mean that he is still playing, or even buying. I still occasionally paint 40k stuff (mostly 2nd ed guardsmen which I already own) and I have no intention of playing 40k until it gets some decent rules.

My point is plain and simple if you are going to quit you would. No one stands in the door screaming I AM LEAVING for weeks, they just want people to know they aren't happy. My kids do it all the time, I tell them no they get mad stomp their feet stand by the door saying dad ....dad....dad.... I say what they say I am leaving I say oh ok, then after about 5 minutes of standing there saying I am leaving they wonder off to play with something else.

We are in a modern area were people need instant gratification, give it a week or 2 and it will stop. This happens every time a new anything comes out. People find a single word that bugs them and scream about it on the net for a week or 2 then they fall asleep. I have been here for 3 or 4 ed now maybe more and every time it is still the same thing.

Key thing to remember, older players will not be as likely to come on the net to complain about something that,s not going to change or to say I quit. They didn't invest this much time and money into something to get upset over a rule change. If they are upset they will just sit the edition out or play with friends.

So want to see how many people are happy/don'tcare. it's simple count the people in this forum mad, times it by 2 then subtract them from the estimated fanbase. That's how many are happy lol
Formula is like this people who complain will seek out a way to complain for some reason times it by 2 for those who may quit because of other reasons related to 7ed money something seems off ect. Probly not to accurate but probly closer then one thinks lol.

I'm fairly excited. I'll probably play a few games and see how it is. That being said I don't get round to playing much anyway. Only managed one game of 6th. That rulebook was a great investment.

OgreChubbs wrote:

 Palindrome wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:

Now watch his gallery for more 40k to come :p

That doesn't mean that he is still playing, or even buying. I still occasionally paint 40k stuff (mostly 2nd ed guardsmen which I already own) and I have no intention of playing 40k until it gets some decent rules.

My point is plain and simple if you are going to quit you would. No one stands in the door screaming I AM LEAVING for weeks, they just want people to know they aren't happy. My kids do it all the time, I tell them no they get mad stomp their feet stand by the door saying dad ....dad....dad.... I say what they say I am leaving I say oh ok, then after about 5 minutes of standing there saying I am leaving they wonder off to play with something else.

We are in a modern area were people need instant gratification, give it a week or 2 and it will stop. This happens every time a new anything comes out. People find a single word that bugs them and scream about it on the net for a week or 2 then they fall asleep. I have been here for 3 or 4 ed now maybe more and every time it is still the same thing.

Key thing to remember, older players will not be as likely to come on the net to complain about something that,s not going to change or to say I quit. They didn't invest this much time and money into something to get upset over a rule change. If they are upset they will just sit the edition out or play with friends.

So want to see how many people are happy/don'tcare. it's simple count the people in this forum mad, times it by 2 then subtract them from the estimated fanbase. That's how many are happy lol
Formula is like this people who complain will seek out a way to complain for some reason times it by 2 for those who may quit because of other reasons related to 7ed money something seems off ect. Probly not to accurate but probly closer then one thinks lol.

Maybe this is because I'm in Australia but everything you are saying about people not leaving and all that amazes me.

Down here GW are hemoraging sales. The Combat Company, one of (maybe the) biggest on line retailers in our neck of the woods, was saying on Facebook that the new edition of dystonian wars has outsold the new edition of 40k 6:1.

When someone says they are quitting down here they sure as hell mean it and I find it hard to believe its much different anywhere else in the world.

 Seaward wrote:

 Kavish wrote:

 Seaward wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Yea! Yew! Positivity! That's what I like to hear!

Every time a new edition comes out, people on the internet say that the game is ruined and 40k is dead. Then it turns out to be good, and much fun is had. Quit with the doom and gloom guys!

6th wasn't good. 7th wasn't good. 5th was arguably not that good.

A shrinking customer base, falling sales, and a downward trend while the rest of the market segment is trending up don't leave a lot of room for positivity. Cheering on a determined loser doesn't help anybody.

There were people positive right up to the end of Fantasy, too.

Yet your still playing. Last time I checked, fantasy isn't over. I don't play it but there is a dedicated community of WFB players around here. I sometimes fantasise (lol, bad pun) about getting into it, then I realise that I haven't the extra time nor money.

No, I'm not. I haven't played a game of 40K since 5th ended, and I haven't bought a Games Workshop product since I bought the 6th Edition BRB.

I've enjoyed X-Wing instead.

And if you think Fantasy's a thriving game, I don't know what to tell you, aside from "Pay attention."

If you haven't played a game since 5th then you can't possibly say that 6th and 7th suck. That's like saying you don't like shortbread when you've never tried it.

Or, you know, one could read the rules...

 jonolikespie wrote:
Or, you know, one could read the rules...

Or watch people play at the FLGS and come to a decision based on that.

Sorry, I know MWHistorian. He sold his Space Marine army to FTW games. Look up Spikey Bits, I bet you'll see a bunch of yellow marines for sale. Don't call people liars when you know nothing about them, just a tip.


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 Kavish wrote:

 Seaward wrote:

 Kavish wrote:

 Seaward wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Yea! Yew! Positivity! That's what I like to hear!

Every time a new edition comes out, people on the internet say that the game is ruined and 40k is dead. Then it turns out to be good, and much fun is had. Quit with the doom and gloom guys!

6th wasn't good. 7th wasn't good. 5th was arguably not that good.

A shrinking customer base, falling sales, and a downward trend while the rest of the market segment is trending up don't leave a lot of room for positivity. Cheering on a determined loser doesn't help anybody.

There were people positive right up to the end of Fantasy, too.

Yet your still playing. Last time I checked, fantasy isn't over. I don't play it but there is a dedicated community of WFB players around here. I sometimes fantasise (lol, bad pun) about getting into it, then I realise that I haven't the extra time nor money.

No, I'm not. I haven't played a game of 40K since 5th ended, and I haven't bought a Games Workshop product since I bought the 6th Edition BRB.

I've enjoyed X-Wing instead.

And if you think Fantasy's a thriving game, I don't know what to tell you, aside from "Pay attention."

If you haven't played a game since 5th then you can't possibly say that 6th and 7th suck. That's like saying you don't like shortbread when you've never tried it.

I've never been stabbed, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't like it. it is possible to learn from other people's experience.

OgreChubbs wrote:

We are in a modern area were people need instant gratification, give it a week or 2 and it will stop.

Except that it doesn't stop, how else do you explain GW's steadily falling sales?

I went to a club that I hadn't visited for about 18 months yesterday; when I last visited it was only GW games, mostly 40k but also some fantasy. Yesterday however it was 50% FoW and 50% 40k and that is apparently the usual split. I know that the plural of anecdotal evidence is not data but this is something that I have read time and time again on wargaming forums and GW's sales are declining (in a rapidly growing market), how can that be explained if people are still playing 40k? The 'ignorant internet' defense, such as it is, falls down completely in the face of real world evidence.

I was very much into 40K just before 6th edition got announced. When it did, I preordered the limited edition and everything, since it was my first new 40k edition that came out while I was playing.

In the beginning, it worked out fine in my regular group, and we were playing 40K every week, but after the first few couple of codices, the ruleset really started to show its flaws. We started doing all sorts of house rules and experimenting with army selection systems, but we never really got the game to a state where every player in the group enjoyed it.
Some people wanted themed lists, some people wanted fluffy lists and some people just wanted to play with the miniatures they had used for the last ten years.
I purchased Apocalypse when it came out, since I had been waiting for an updated ruleset since I didn't want to purchase an outdated Apoc book. We played one game of Apoc and it went fine, but the regular game still suffered from the new codex releases.

Things really started going downhill when the Tau and Eldar codices came out. The two guys playing Tau and Eldar were really seasoned players, but they had always been used to playing well because of their old, sub par armies. When they got new rules, their new armies became so powerful that they anihilated any opponent despite bringing the worst models that they had. We had all been used to playing really sub optimal outdated armies, and the codex releases of 6th edition were really messing with the balance of the game.

People stopped finding 40k entertaining enough to play every week. Some people started selling their armies because they didn't enjoy their playing style anymore, and after a couple of months of trying different things, like Kill Team, we stopped plying 40K entirely.
Now 40K is something a couple of us play a few times a year. I have had like one game of 40k the last five months or so, and the worst thing is I'm not really missing it.

People moved on to other games (we are all long time tabletop war gamers, nothing can kill out hobby). Some began on Malifaux, some went on to play Warmachine exclusively, and some (including myself) started playing Flames of War.

I have heard some decent things about 7th edition, and some bad. My point is that it is simply a bit too late for an edition change, since 40K is dead here. It died out completely at my club, and nobody even plays it at my FLGS anymore, they play the three games I mentioned above.

I'm just a bit annoyed that I spent a fortune on hardback rulebooks that lasted me under a year or two, and that means I'm really holding back when it comes to buying rules from GW again, since they cost a fortune and get outdated so quickly, while being poorly written. At my club, GW's prices didn't kill 40K, since most players had plenty of disposable income, their miniatures didn't kill 40K, since everybody had their personal favorite army, and the fluff didn't kill 40K, since many had played it for a decade. The rules killed 40K around here, and I really think that says something about the game designers.

While maybe not FoW as the other 50%, I must say that when I started everyone here was playing w40k or WFB . Some people also had armies for other systems , even the press gangers and the guys doing promo work for infinity , were known w40k and wfb tournament players . Time jump to know and half the people don't own a GW army and most of the w40k/WFB players are veterans who bought their armies in 5th or 6th. Eldar for example were one of the power builds in 6th, there was one new player who had enough cash to buy all those serpents , tau and dark eldar ally and the recast titan. All the other 6 eldar players were people who had eldar armies in 4th or 5th. There were 0 new nid players.

There are actualy people who are starting table top gaming with something else then GW games , what in my times was unheard of . You started with w40k or WFB if you were super rich , then if you wanted to be cool you played Warmahordes or if you wanted to pain pin up girls started infinity.

Yeah, I have seen FoW players introduce entirely new people to the hobby with FoW. Imagine a world where people playing miniature war games never have played 40K or fantasy. Here it's starting to become a reality, and I honestly think that GW should fear for that.

I'll have to add to that.

The plural of anecdote is not data aside, when I started wargaming over ten years ago, it was via 40k space wolves and tau. All the clubs played 40k. It was 'the' game, and gw was 'the' hobby. Bear in mind also, the internet ten years ago wasn't the internet of today. As 'informed' as we were, there were few alternatives. Warzone was one. But generally, people played 40k. People moaned about balance. People sucked it up as there were very limited alternatives. Essentially, if you didn't like 40k, you played fantasy - the 'other' gw game.

Essentially though, everyone got into gaming via gw games. The idea that someone didn't play gw games was strange enough in itself. We knew they probably existed 'somewhere', but it wasn't something you'd often come across. The idea that people played wargames, and didn't get into it via gw - wow, kinda mind blowing. It just wasn't done like that.

Now?

In the last three or four years, I've met a lot of people who got into gaming though other games.flames of war, warmachine, malifaux. You talk to them, as we do, and chat about other games they play, or how they got into it. More and more, it's not 'I started playing 40k and then got into other stuff'. It's 'I never played gw games'. First few times - I was surprised. Now? I'm used to it. Gw should be a bit concerned about it too!

 Bonde wrote:
Yeah, I have seen FoW players introduce entirely new people to the hobby with FoW. Imagine a world where people playing miniature war games never have played 40K or fantasy. Here it's starting to become a reality, and I honestly think that GW should fear for that.

I was at a FLGS I don't normally go to (it's 40 minutes away so it's iffy when i can play at a friend's house 5 minutes away) for a tourney in December. It was maybe my third time playing at this particular store and I was amazed to see children there for the first time (previously it had been late nights, this time I was there during the day).
Those children where playing Warmachine, not 40k.

It kinda blew my mind.

Dreadball has added more players to tabletop for me. The next step is to get them into Deadzone, and then Warpath. Small team based > strike force based > army based. All with well designed rules (assuming Warpath rules get revised this year) set in the same universe with unifying fluff which is important, and just as important low barriers to entry. After playing Dreadball and Deadzone, it really brings to light the sad state of 40k rules - though coming from pc gaming, I was already /facepalming at the horrible balance and unnecessary complexity.

Im yet to try 7th but I have had a good read of the book and Almost all of the changes seem positive.

I agree with the OP's house rules and I will look to implement these with my gaming group aswell. Capping the allies and reducing their mission capability is a great idea, as is the LOW substitute.

My main gripe is the daemon summoning but until I have played it is difficult to judge how it actually effects the game.

Cant wait to get stuck into 7th!

OgreChubbs wrote:

 Palindrome wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:

Now watch his gallery for more 40k to come :p

That doesn't mean that he is still playing, or even buying. I still occasionally paint 40k stuff (mostly 2nd ed guardsmen which I already own) and I have no intention of playing 40k until it gets some decent rules.

My point is plain and simple if you are going to quit you would. No one stands in the door screaming I AM LEAVING for weeks, they just want people to know they aren't happy. My kids do it all the time, I tell them no they get mad stomp their feet stand by the door saying dad ....dad....dad.... I say what they say I am leaving I say oh ok, then after about 5 minutes of standing there saying I am leaving they wonder off to play with something else.

We are in a modern area were people need instant gratification, give it a week or 2 and it will stop. This happens every time a new anything comes out. People find a single word that bugs them and scream about it on the net for a week or 2 then they fall asleep. I have been here for 3 or 4 ed now maybe more and every time it is still the same thing.

Key thing to remember, older players will not be as likely to come on the net to complain about something that,s not going to change or to say I quit. They didn't invest this much time and money into something to get upset over a rule change. If they are upset they will just sit the edition out or play with friends.

So want to see how many people are happy/don'tcare. it's simple count the people in this forum mad, times it by 2 then subtract them from the estimated fanbase. That's how many are happy lol
Formula is like this people who complain will seek out a way to complain for some reason times it by 2 for those who may quit because of other reasons related to 7ed money something seems off ect. Probly not to accurate but probly closer then one thinks lol.

You don't really understand what's going on here, do you? Yes, I've left GW games until they make drastic changes. I'm sticking around because people like you don't understand why.

5ish years ago nearly everyone in my small city played 40k/WFB and so did i. Near the end of 5th when i felt GW started going full ****** i stopped playing, i was hoping 6th edition would bring me back but it was the opposite of what i wanted.

This edition has locked the door and thrown and away the key. Regardless of being determined to never give GW money again, i will likely never even play the game again.

The once pretty large 40k scene is now very tiny and people are playing a wide variety of games. Which is cool, but not for me becuase Infinity, Warmachine etc don't scratch my itch.

My dream is that somebody with competent designers buys the IP and makes a good game out of it, becuase 40k as a wargame is so bad its almost funny.

Also OP , don't bait if you don't want hate.

I shelved all my 40k stuff about 6 months into 6th edition. The wonkie-ness with allies and rules shenanigans really turned me off. 7th Edition looks to be more of the same. I'll continue to stay away. Literally everything I own that's GW is sitting in storage and will stay there until the rules-set becomes much, much tighter and some resemblance of balance is ushered in.

I've decided to protest quietly with my wallet. Most of the 40k gaming group I played with have done the same and moved on to Warmachine. Talking with them over the past month, most haven't played a game of 40k in almost a year. Some are selling off all their excess armies and keeping one, just in case. I'll be feeding the coffers of Privateer Press along with them.

So congrats GW. You've pushed away a 20+ year veteran with more disposable income than time allows me to spend.

I don't get in many games - 1 every few months, maybe - but the mere fact that they've released a slightly different version of the game, for $100 here in Canada, irks me enough that I won't be buying it. If I play again this year, I will be playing 6th or earlier edition. This coming from a guy with 10k+ points, who's bought several dataslates and multiple new codices.

A $20 supplement would have sufficed for the changes we have seen. And that's why I won't be supporting this edition, nor buying any new models. When the quality of the product is low - which typical GW rules are - it's unjustifiable.

It seems pretty much the same as 6th to me, with some tweaks here and there. Some of the tweaks I think were really good, like the changes to jink, overwatch being denied by pinning and such, which makes it seem like a good update. I still think people who run 100% close combat lists will bitch about the fact that they still can't run in a straight line across the battlefield and just kill everything, but screw them. I like games that have to be played in a tactical way.

What I am genuinely excited about however, is that I can finally, in a tournament legal way, field a combo of Traitor Guardsmen, CSM and Daemons. I've been waiting for that for so long now. It's fluffy, and it's something I think I can turn into something really nasty to face.

OgreChubbs wrote:

 Palindrome wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:

Now watch his gallery for more 40k to come :p

That doesn't mean that he is still playing, or even buying. I still occasionally paint 40k stuff (mostly 2nd ed guardsmen which I already own) and I have no intention of playing 40k until it gets some decent rules.

My point is plain and simple if you are going to quit you would. No one stands in the door screaming I AM LEAVING for weeks, they just want people to know they aren't happy. My kids do it all the time, I tell them no they get mad stomp their feet stand by the door saying dad ....dad....dad.... I say what they say I am leaving I say oh ok, then after about 5 minutes of standing there saying I am leaving they wonder off to play with something else.

We are in a modern area were people need instant gratification, give it a week or 2 and it will stop. This happens every time a new anything comes out. People find a single word that bugs them and scream about it on the net for a week or 2 then they fall asleep. I have been here for 3 or 4 ed now maybe more and every time it is still the same thing.

Key thing to remember, older players will not be as likely to come on the net to complain about something that,s not going to change or to say I quit. They didn't invest this much time and money into something to get upset over a rule change. If they are upset they will just sit the edition out or play with friends.

So want to see how many people are happy/don'tcare. it's simple count the people in this forum mad, times it by 2 then subtract them from the estimated fanbase. That's how many are happy lol
Formula is like this people who complain will seek out a way to complain for some reason times it by 2 for those who may quit because of other reasons related to 7ed money something seems off ect. Probly not to accurate but probly closer then one thinks lol.

Not this time Oger. Sales figures just don't lie. This is the first edition that isn't selling out, just one example why nothing in your post is based on anything other than what you wish to be true. My personal story and decline in interest of GW products starts with 6th. I read the reviews, heard the rumors, but I bought the over priced book anyway. The game was total crap. 6th ed defecated on the way I want to play 40k. I play table top games, in order, for Strategy, tournaments, models, fluff, list building, finding exploits. 5th took away a ton of strategy from the game, 6th neutered strategic play. So I, like so many others that solely played 40k games, looked for other options. I found other games and got into them. I soon realized I didn't miss GW as much as I thought I would. News of 7th ed gave me hope. I thought the reason they were coming out with a new edition was to bring some sensible changes to the game and take it away from its market share shedding crap pile 6th left it in. I was shocked that 7th doubled down on all the stuff 6th did to make the game bad. This is the first time since I started with 3ed that I won't be buying the new addition.

7th edition will appeal to a certain type of gamer. 7th is made for people that enjoy finding interesting, usually unintended interactions, in the rules. There is no doubt about that. However, 7th ed DEFACATES on every other type of gamer. Strategy gamer? Defecated on. Fluff gamer? Defecated on. Tournament player? Defecated on. Here is the reason that the rules designers at GW are so terrible at their jobs. If you design a game for the Strategy/Tournament player you automatically or with minimal effort get the other types of players.

The rules team is headed by Jervis Jhonson. You need look no further for the demise of GW games. Jervis has been in charge of rules since 5th ed. He has wrecked both 40k and Fantasy. The best thing GW can do is fire Jervis Jhonson.

Away from the internet that I've experienced the response is positive, but still annoyed at a new edition so soon.

I actually think it's a good thing the wargame market is branching out like a proper market should do.

I just bought the rulebook yesterday. I bought it online so I have to wait for shipping!

I'm kinda baffled by one thing..

People keep talking about how GW's sales drop and other games' get higher.. isn't that kind of... obvious? I mean think about it - the community is limited, there isn't an exponential wargamer influx similar to the one from LotR times so.. If some games get popular doesn't it mean that other games' popularity has to drop? Isn't it obvious that 40k and WFB will have to share their playerbase with other games?

Now don't get me wrong, sports, I ain't saying that GW is doing jolly good lately nor that they're not at fault here(although not entirely), but remember that we live in an age of bajillions of small systems erupting from every hole like orks from crashed Space Hulk. It's only natural that if there are more options the community will spread itself all over them as some of those games particularly hit some people's soft spots. And this will obviously take the customers away from some systems so.. the more systems people turn to, the less popular will be the old ones and the big 'uns will feel it the most as it's their playerbases that they have to share.

See, as for various systems.. it's all matter of preferences. Not everyone likes the gameplay of Infinity, not everyone enjoys the WarmaHordes' designs, not everyone is into skirmish dogfighting that X-Wing provides, not everyone likes to play spaceship battles presented in Firestorm Armada, not everyone... and so on, and so on. Usually it's not that simply a matter of "oh, it's a better system, just move over to it!". Some people still like the feel of 40k, the way it plays, the way the miniatures look or the fluff. Same goes for WFB and others.

While somewhat unhappy with the prices and the time 7th was released, people here are going to pick it up and most of the rules changes are deemed rather fine in our local community. People had fun in 6th given the fact that we're all mature people who don't argue over slowed gak like idiots and if there are any disputes they're often solved by reasonable discussion and if it can't be, then it's a rule of thumb to disallow it to the one that tries to use it to not make anyone think that he's exploiting the ambiguous situation. Again - I know not everyone has the luxury of having to deal with reasonable grown-ups, but frankly I couldn't care less - I act mature and I expect the same of a fellow player that wants to share the time and fun with me. If all he can do is copy-pasting the most ridiculously broken netlists and refuses to act reasonable when politely notified about his exploitative approach at rules then he's not a person I ever want to talk to, let alone spend my free time playing with. If there's any problem on player level we can always ask the FLGS staff to resolve it. It might be their interpretation, but if they run the place, their word is almost as good as GW's if we want to play there.

Funnily enough Corvus Belli and Privateer Press decided to ignore Poland as a market, thus pushing players into GW's arms, although X-wing seems to be growing in my city as a nice, casual game to play a fast and entertaining game. Hell, we're even having new players going for WFB lately for two reasons - proxability(you can play with cutout paper 'regiments' while you collect the miniatures) and popularity of ETC comp. I don't think I know any WFB player in Poland that plays without the ETC rules compilation as our WFB scene is really serious about participating in it in general.

The thing is though the (admittedly not perfect) evidence from icv2 does suggest that there is an influx of new players. When they say the Wargaming market is growing they mean it is growing, not that other games are growing. However many people are leaving GW, there are enough entering the hobby to push that number back into a positive on top of the loss from GW.

 jonolikespie wrote:
The thing is though the (admittedly not perfect) evidence from icv2 does suggest that there is an influx of new players.

Well, maybe I phrased it incorrectly. Of course that the community is growing worldwide, but it's not -that- huge of a growth that'd be enough to prove that everyone who quits GW's games quits wargaming in general, rather than transfering over to other games.

Again - 40k is expensive and it drives many players interested in starting it away, but there still is an influx of 40k and WFB players. Maybe not as big as the amount of people quitting/transfering altogether, but still. The community is growing rather slowly(although it's gaining momentum compared to what it was like a few years ago), so every new game steals some customers from other games, that's only natural and the biggest titles are the ones that will feel it the most because bigger amount of players will just move onto other systems. With the amount of new games the hobby is branching out, further spreading the community over various titles as more people find their fix in some other systems.

GW is lucky that their system is the only popular non-skirmish sci-fi game with rich fluff and stuff that appeals to various groups of people.

 jonolikespie wrote:
The thing is though the (admittedly not perfect) evidence from icv2 does suggest that there is an influx of new players. When they say the Wargaming market is growing they mean it is growing, not that other games are growing. However many people are leaving GW, there are enough entering the hobby to push that number back into a positive on top of the loss from GW.

The numbers say otherwise while the sector is growing gws market share is shrinking, people are leaving but the hobby is so expensive new players are put off, after all you can have a full x-wing fleet well under £100, same with battletech/alphastrike and other games.

£300-400 to start before you even play a game is asking an awful lot, even the starter is twice the price of other games intro boxes.

Now the game in my area seems to be "I have 20 Warp Charge at 1500pts, look at all the empty bases I can summon". Unpainted armies. Minimum troops to get max psykers. Those 5 chaos space marines really forge the narrative. Yawn.

HOWEVER, I am not one to impose restrictions on people. It is in the rules, and if you can do it, you should not be stopped.

Nothing will change in 7th edition for me. People already pick and choose opponents, and the people at the store who bring the dumb lists will find themselves sitting games out and watching until they make adjustments. It's been happening for years, and the right to refuse will never go away. I say game on with this edition, and I have a very happy Ahriman.

I like 7th.

hobojebus wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
The thing is though the (admittedly not perfect) evidence from icv2 does suggest that there is an influx of new players. When they say the Wargaming market is growing they mean it is growing, not that other games are growing. However many people are leaving GW, there are enough entering the hobby to push that number back into a positive on top of the loss from GW.

The numbers say otherwise while the sector is growing gws market share is shrinking, people are leaving but the hobby is so expensive new players are put off, after all you can have a full x-wing fleet well under £100, same with battletech/alphastrike and other games.

£300-400 to start before you even play a game is asking an awful lot, even the starter is twice the price of other games intro boxes.

Um... I don't disagree with any of that. GW does have a laughable buy in.
I was saying that even though GW are shrinking everyone else is growing fast enough that the whole market has been growing significantly the last few years.