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cincy - I wrote them a lengthy email stating what you just said amongst other things as reasons people might not be pledging. If your rules aren't adequate and your figures are not compatible in scale ith other ranges - you can't sell to the biggest demographic in our hobby - the gamers.

So if they tried to refund at 28mm everything would be cool?

to be honest I like the larger scale its a bit different, unless alot of people want to use them as 40k proxys

 edlowe wrote:
So if they tried to refund at 28mm everything would be cool?

to be honest I like the larger scale its a bit different, unless alot of people want to use them as 40k proxys

I think you would get more people who would buy them just because they would mix a lot better with existing lines and look better with current terrain.

Obviously there is a level of interest at the 35mm or 40mm (whatever it's suppose to be). But people who are looking for minis in the 28mm size or at least have them as a fall back (well the rules suck, but at least I got cool minis I can use) are not interested, making the only available market would be artist and gamers who want a very solid game.

They have great minis, but the rules are not that good.

I actually like the strange scale. I'm planning on using the figures for some generic 28mm games anyway, so them being a little big doesn't bother me at all.

One of my pet peeves is the predominance of equal size troops in sci-fi. Not every killer robot/alien should be exactly 6' tall. It's like a bad Star Trek episode. I want to see some varience.

 Duskland wrote:
I actually like the strange scale. I'm planning on using the figures for some generic 28mm games anyway, so them being a little big doesn't bother me at all.

I'd say you're in the minority.

While I too like some diversity in height, these dudes aren't even remotely in scale with anything else 28mm.

 edlowe wrote:
So if they tried to refund at 28mm everything would be cool?

to be honest I like the larger scale its a bit different, unless alot of people want to use them as 40k proxys

The thing is, they probably can't. I don't know why people think just because it's digital you can produce them at any size ya like, you really can't. The smaller they get the more shallow detail is lost. That's why larger scale figures look better, that's part of the reaosn 'these' figures look so good, they're larger. It also makes them considerably easier to paint which again makes them look better.

So if they do decide to relaunch at a compatible scale with games like Infinity they'll have to partially resculpt all the figures 'and' I'm going to want to see rulers in every damn shot because so far they simply can't be trusted to tell the damn truth about such things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Duskland wrote:
I actually like the strange scale. I'm planning on using the figures for some generic 28mm games anyway, so them being a little big doesn't bother me at all.

One of my pet peeves is the predominance of equal size troops in sci-fi. Not every killer robot/alien should be exactly 6' tall. It's like a bad Star Trek episode. I want to see some varience.

GW space marines come up to the humans chests. They'd be closer to 8ft tall but in normal human proportion. It'd look 'really' odd.

 Artemis Black wrote:

 edlowe wrote:
So if they tried to refund at 28mm everything would be cool?

to be honest I like the larger scale its a bit different, unless alot of people want to use them as 40k proxys

The thing is, they probably can't. I don't know why people think just because it's digital you can produce them at any size ya like, you really can't. The smaller they get the more shallow detail is lost. That's why larger scale figures look better, that's part of the reaosn 'these' figures look so good, they're larger. It also makes them considerably easier to paint which again makes them look better.

Wow, didn't know, thought if they were digital you can resize them any way you want no problem.

As Alpharius said earlier, the potential to use these as "truescale" marines is tempting, though the aesthetics are much further out than say Mantic Peackeepers or DFG Valkir. Far enough out that I don't really think it's workable whilst staying fluffy - though overall I think the SM armour style is cheesy, it *is* iconic.

 Piston Honda wrote:

 Artemis Black wrote:

 edlowe wrote:
So if they tried to refund at 28mm everything would be cool?

to be honest I like the larger scale its a bit different, unless alot of people want to use them as 40k proxys

The thing is, they probably can't. I don't know why people think just because it's digital you can produce them at any size ya like, you really can't. The smaller they get the more shallow detail is lost. That's why larger scale figures look better, that's part of the reason 'these' figures look so good, they're larger. It also makes them considerably easier to paint which again makes them look better.

Wow, didn't know, thought if they were digital you can resize them any way you want no problem.

You can certainly resize them but the smaller they get the worse they'll look if they were sculpted for a larger scale. Detail sculpted for larger scale figures isn't as 'deep' so the smaller you try to produce them the shallow the details gets and it starts to disappear or simply look worse. Tiny surface detail, like you find on faces or guns for example.

If you want to make 32mm figures you really need to know that when you're sculpting them. Which was my issue with using 75mm+ ones in the advertising, even printed out at 40mm they won't look the same, knock another 25% off the size and they're going to look worse again. They'd need to be resculpted to avoid that.

Unless it was sculpted for 40mm from the start, then printed larger. From actual experience, you will be surprised at how much detail stays in prints of all sizes.

inquisitor or warzone are not good examples of big scale models inherently doing poorly. That's because, let's face it, warzone is not as popular as people think. If it was, it wouldn't have failed 3 times as a game already. Besides a flashy gasp as a kick starter, we're really not seeing it do much.

And inquisitor was a terrible idea from the beginning since it was fracturing a player base, and it was GW's usual abandonment policies on top of that.

I've been out of WH40K since 5th Ed and all the price hikes of that time......but back then proxying for GW minis was a big no no everywhere except your private games at home or in niche clubs......so, has something changed? I mean I keep hearing about wanting these minis as proxies but is that really a viable basis for a project? Personally I planned on using these miniatures for painting and roleplay and therefore was never bothered by rules.

 Delephont wrote:
I've been out of WH40K since 5th Ed and all the price hikes of that time......but back then proxying for GW minis was a big no no everywhere except your private games at home or in niche clubs......so, has something changed? I mean I keep hearing about wanting these minis as proxies but is that really a viable basis for a project? Personally I planned on using these miniatures for painting and roleplay and therefore was never bothered by rules.

Using 3rd party miniatures was generally only a problem in GW-sponsored tournaments or at GW stores. Occasionally at independant stores (more likely if they didn't actually sell the range that you were using) but less often.

It's still generally a no go at GW stores, but since GW stopped supporting the tournament scene, the rules on what miniatures can be used tended to relax.

 Delephont wrote:
I've been out of WH40K since 5th Ed and all the price hikes of that time......but back then proxying for GW minis was a big no no everywhere except your private games at home or in niche clubs......so, has something changed?

Definitely. In a lot of ways GW has abandoned actually supporting gaming in many areas and lots of gaming has moved from stores to clubs and in people's homes. An entire industry of alternative models and conversion parts have popped up. GW even attempted to sue one of them, but after years in court (and their head lawyer no longer working for GW) the company in question is still in operation with regular releases. The age of "official" died alongside GW's support for tournaments and the like.

If you game in an independent store, it would probably still be a jerk move to get your alternative miniatures online and then bring them in to play there. Fortunately a lot of appropriate alternative miniatures are available through hobby distribution, so you can get things like DreamForge's storm troopers at the same place you might play 40k. I see you are in the UK though, so this might not be an issue for you as independent gaming stores are less central to the hobby on your side of the Atlantic.

Without GW actively fostering this "official only" mindset with approved events and all that, the natural thing happened. The rule of cool wins out. If it looks good and no one is confused, use it.

I was OK with the larger scale then, and I'm OK with it now.

The material 'uncertainty' was the biggest issue for me at the start.

Once that was cleared up, I was more than happy to stay in, and I though more people would be as well.

I guess a lot of people really thought HIPs was a possibility here.

And now that it isn't, they're out?

Interesting to hear that Mantic was sniffing around, trying to figure out who Scale Games was going to use for HIPs!

 Alpharius wrote:
I was OK with the larger scale then, and I'm OK with it now.

The material 'uncertainty' was the biggest issue for me at the start.

Once that was cleared up, I was more than happy to stay in, and I though more people would be as well.

I guess a lot of people really thought HIPs was a possibility here.

And now that it isn't, they're out?

Interesting to hear that Mantic was sniffing around, trying to figure out who Scale Games was going to use for HIPs!

I don't think its the material as much as the wishy washy answers. One day its this, the other its that, now it is this at 130k it turns into that. The lack of clarity in scale, when I first looked I assumed they were 28mm for some reason (probably should not do that) -- then they were 35mm now they are 40mm depending on if you read the comments or not --- rumor has it they might scale down to 28mm. The rules are still not great and with all the other things that have come up, I do not think they will be able to revise them prior to the end. So the only thing that is 100% is that it is not certain what you will get at the end.

I'm not sure that it's even an issue of material or scale,

I think a lot of it is down to 'negative vibes' from the KS comments and on forums

while it's nice to imagine the majority of backers think deeply about what they back on KS and what they want it for

I think a lot of them (especially on bigger campaigns like this one is based on the funding goal) spot the campaign either on KS or via forums then just glance at things, go ooh shiney, I kind of want this and just back it. If there is a lot of negative comment they tend to pull out out/don't back even if the issue is sorted

I can't see this funding, although I'm happy to up my pledge to Commander a bit closer to the end. Every communication from Scale Games is so hesitant, wishy washy and unsure. And very sporadic. I think they need a stronger presence.

It just doesn't come across as a project where the people involved know what needs to be done and have a plan to accomplish it.

No matter what happens during this campaign, I don't think they'll be shrinking things down to 28mm.

And I hope they don't!

I like the larger scale!

I hope this one can recover - and it can, IF Scale Games ups their game in terms of communication and KS clarity!

EDIT:

And now under £85K - ouch!

I can't believe that this many people wanted/thought it would be HIPs - what could be causing this amount of bleed off?!?

And, more importantly, what, if anything, can be done to get this campaign moving in the right direction again?

Communication problems reminds me of another company that ran a kickstarter. These guys don't seem as touchy at least!

Wow, below £85K.......dayumm this thing is dead. In some ways I think this is a good thing. SG was/is clearly out of their depth on this, and their (seeming) incompetence in terms of marketing, knowing their target market, and mastering communication basics (like language) has lead to them paying a huge price! Add to that, this potential failure will mark any future SG projects that they seek crowd funding for!

I think Scale should stick to what they know best (75mm figures) and leave the games and tabletop to those that know it better. I would see no shame for Scale to supply their miniature design skills to a.n.other games producer and take part in a solid collaboration.

This is a very sad time for SG!

Dead kickstarter walking on the green mile!

Personally I don't think its good business with the lowballing practice of kickstarter campaigns. I think setting it intentionally high as a business is the way to go as It takes a lot of pressure off the creators and the backers. Any stretch goals after that then don't impact on the main business of the game getting produced. What SG has done in setting up the game looks good to me how they handled it is another matter. (Just an opinion)

How could this be turned around with a new press release to each and every forum with the firm commitments on what was very vague before. Don't make promises of free figures or any other sycophantic nonsense. If people are not interested in this scale of game fair enough absolutely nothing you can do about that.

But I think people are getting caught up in the minutiae of the scale. If you play terminators in 40k and they are what about 40mm? surely you are still playing with 40mm figures in a 28mm scale game?

 Pilgrim_uk wrote:
Personally I don't think its good business with the lowballing practice of kickstarter campaigns. I think setting it intentionally high as a business is the way to go as It takes a lot of pressure off the creators and the backers. Any stretch goals after that then don't impact on the main business of the game getting produced. What SG has done in setting up the game looks good to me how they handled it is another matter. (Just an opinion)

How could this be turned around with a new press release to each and every forum with the firm commitments on what was very vague before. Don't make promises of free figures or any other sycophantic nonsense. If people are not interested in this scale of game fair enough absolutely nothing you can do about that.

But I think people are getting caught up in the minutiae of the scale. If you play terminators in 40k and they are what about 40mm? surely you are still playing with 40mm figures in a 28mm scale game?

Terminators are around 37mm and they rpresent superhumans in powered armour. This games normal guys in normal armour are 10% taller again, their powered armour guys are even bigger and the aliens even bigger again.

And there are 2 different scale arguments going on I think. One is whether or not it matters if they are big. I don't think that's as much an argument as it is personal prefrence. If you want to play with 40 odd mm figures then go ahead.

The real scale argument is that people, even now, don't seem to know what they are getting. Even today in the comments someone called it a 32mm game, multiple others called it a 35mm game and even more mentioned it being the same as Dust and WWX. None of those are true, none. And Scale Games didn't correct a single one of them. That's been going on since the start. It's primarily based on a) people not bothering to much with new information and the game was intiially jst presented as a straight "35mm scale" game and b) Even if they do care, the FAQ states their size incorectly still as "35mm to the eyes" (Plus there's the issue of photoshopping lager than 25mm bases onto the minis to make them appear smaller).

Until they put up photos with a ruler and change the FAQ accordingly they ae basically still lying directly to their backers. That kinda stuf just doesn't go over well when someone finds out.

 Artemis Black wrote:

Terminators are around 37mm and they rpresent superhumans in powered armour. This games normal guys in normal armour are 10% taller again, their powered armour guys are even bigger and the aliens even bigger again.

And there are 2 different scale arguments going on I think. One is whether or not it matters if they are big. I don't think that's as much an argument as it is personal prefrence. If you want to play with 40 odd mm figures then go ahead.

The real scale argument is that people, even now, don't seem to know what they are getting. Even today in the comments someone called it a 32mm game, multiple others called it a 35mm game and even more mentioned it being the same as Dust and WWX. None of those are true, none. And Scale Games didn't correct a single one of them. That's been going on since the start. It's primarily based on a) people not bothering to much with new information and the game was intiially jst presented as a straight "35mm scale" game and b) Even if they do care, the FAQ states their size incorectly still as "35mm to the eyes" (Plus there's the issue of photoshopping lager than 25mm bases onto the minis to make them appear smaller).

Until they put up photos with a ruler and change the FAQ accordingly they ae basically still lying directly to their backers. That kinda stuf just doesn't go over well when someone finds out.

Exactly. I've watched this campaign very closely, from the very beginning, and just can't bring myself to pledge. It's not because of the art design, or the sculpt quality, which are both excellent. It's for two reasons. First is the rules (not buying figures in a wonky scale if the rules are junk). The second, and most important reason, is that I have no idea what I'd end up getting.

At this point, I have precisely zero faith that Scale Games can produce a product matching any of the specs they've decided on so far. At first, the minis were going to be made in "plastic." Then it was "whatever we think is best." Then it was definitely polystyrene. Now it's definitely resin. See the problem? Between the material issues, and the scale issues, and the delays on their other kickstarter, I have no idea what I'd be getting or when. Some posters have said they're lying, and others have said it's just missteps, but it doesn't matter. Both of those choices are equally bad for the consumer.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love for this campaign to succeed and launch a new sci-fi game into the hobby. Lord knows I almost jumped in when they added the full faction pledges, despite my reservations. But as it stands, Fallen Frontiers has more red flags than a semaphore convention, and I think the backers are beginning to realize it.

The misrepresentation of size was one of the reasons I cancelled my pledge. I don't mind playing a game in a larger scale, but they have been very misleading about what size it actually is and that creates a lack of trust for me. People are asking a lot of perfectly normal questions without being "haterz" but those questions are not being answered and Scale seems to be intentionally withholding information for fear of losing more backers when backers realize they've been duped on the size.

The moment they put the models up next to a ruler or show it on their main page next to a marine is when their bubble is going to pop and Scale knows this which is why we haven't seen it happen. It doesn't take a week to dig out a ruler or tape measure for some photos. There's the one reference picture buried in the updates, but people aren't digging through 30+ updates to find it, they only go by the shiny pics on the main page.

Even when they are signed up as a backer and getting update emailed to them people tend not to read them half the time or have the updates turned off so they lose access to a lot of important info. When running my own kickstarter I constantly got questions that I had either answered in updates or had added to the main page. I constantly was referring people back to the main page and the typical response was oh, I hadn't checked for anything new since I backed several days ago, I'll go check it again. People seem to favor backing a project then leaving it hands off only to double check at the very end (if at all).


SG needs to be a forward as possible if they want it to succeed, not everyone backs a KS project on blind faith, some of us want to make an informed choice before we back projects.

Can anyone with Scale75 colors measure the size of a bottle? I've been googling for the info, but no luck.

There was a photo on their Facebook page with their models alongside some other company products, including a SM and a Termite......just saying....

Well from the beginning I have gotten the drift that its a 1/48 scale game athough the linked picture show its bigger.

If you look at this image if terminators are 41/42mm with base (38mm without base) then that makes the guy without helmet about 45mm. The armoured dude even bigger. ( give or take a mil or so)



The figures are bigger than I first expected.

 Delephont wrote:
There was a photo on their Facebook page with their models alongside some other company products, including a SM and a Termite......just saying....

scale games wrote:
▻ Which scale do you use for Fallen Frontiers figures?

At Scale games we have chosen to scale O (O gauge), where 7 mm correspond to 1 foot.
In this way a model of 1.80 m (6.8 ft) in reality, will measure 40 mm in total.
When we say that a human is 35 mm in FF we refer up to the eyes, not total, since is commonly used as a standar among brands selling kits of 54 or 75 mm.

Yet they are still claiming the minis are 35mm on their main page FAQ, the terminator is 37mm to the top yet it's not eye level with the unarmored troop (who's eye level seem to be at least 39-40mm tall). The armored troops has it's eye level at 40-42mm most likely so how is that considered a 35mm model? Are these 54mm scale model? 75mm? their FAQ answer is clear as fething mud.

Put a ruler next to the things so we can see if it's actually 40mm to the eye (or 35mm or 37mm), if it's 40mm as it currently looks to be start calling it a 40mm game (by the measurement criteria you've described) and be done with it.



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