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Well besides it being a shame I was enjoying this thread but on a more serious note he did finally put a ruler beside the model vertically so now it actually can be measured. From reading the comments it really doesnt seem like they understand how to make models/ run a KS at all. The backers are very understanding and walking them through how to do it step by step it seems. The one thing you got to give this KS is no matter how badly prepared and misunderstood it was, the backers seem to be helping a lot this time (versus the usual flames). This is just weird....

 Artemis Black wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Still kinda early, but it appears this kickstarter avoided the "U" shape that we've become accustomed to. If it funds I assume it will follow the incline like earlier kickstarters- http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1513061270/reaper-miniatures-bones-an-evolution-of-gaming-min/

That's probably not unusual with a unestablished creator, but I'm fairly sure they will hit 40k.

Reaper avoided the U shape by giving away more and more stuff for free so the deal became better and better as it went along.

It is by far the exception not the norm

And I am fairly sure these guys will not hit 40k. I'm also fairly certain most of them have never even played 40k if they don't know what 'post pics of your stuff next to a ruler' means.

It's considerably more difficult to comment on this kickstarter now jokes have been banned

Getting better as more and more backers hop on is typical of most all kickstarters. Earlier board games have an incline(or what I know of does). It was mostly before people knew that sale would get sweeter, and kickstarter was still new to a lot of backers. If I knew what to search for, I would assume relatively unknown creators will all have an incline.

Here are some older projects-
http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/poots/kingdom-death-monster/
http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/coolminiornot/relic-knights/
http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/coolminiornot/zombicide/
http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/coolminiornot/sedition-wars-battle-for-alabaster/

Of course these are just a small sample, and I cherry-picked from memory so I could be totally wrong. This kickstarter was also slightly hyped beforehand, and we still haven't seen the "U" shape. So I just think that because it's an unknown creator this will have a slow start and eventually pick up steam. Considering that it was at 10k last I checked, I don't think they'll have a problem hitting 40k. Hopefully they'll fix more issues as well to bring some goodwill in.

The tape measure thing had to be intentional.

Well, I hope this thing turns out successful. But, I think I may just wait until retail before I put money into it.

Initially I couldn't understand why people asked for a ruler next to the minis,their layout shows clearly their height (32 and 33,5 cm).Then I saw the height placed in question since the creators have already managed a very quick loss of faith in their abilities.Seems to me obvious these people have nothing to do with the wargaming/miniature industry and 'cause some other manufacturers (CMON, Mantic etc) had hundreds of thousand $$$$$$ collected through their KS, they thought of grabbing some of that
"The video game industry is a tough nut to crack and very hard to compete in, so why not go into miniature wargaming which seems easier?" The key word is "seems"....

People are being far too gentle and patient with these creators, hard to understand this behavior. I only came up with a single reason to explain it. It's called "Made in the USA"

For their sakes they better have more stuff prepared than what they've shown.
Hope all works out for them,but mostly hope everything works out for everyone backing this project.

Well just before I head off to work a little treat for dakka:

Managed to convince them to put this together, very nice of them and hopefully helps you guys out.

Enjoy.

Where can I find the 32mm on that Imperial tape measure? Sure, I could convert the measurements; but as a prospective customer why am I being asked to do that work? (yes I do realise they're a US company, but even US gamers use 28mm/32mm etc when describing figure scales).

Also, those are some pretty chunky custom bases, ideally the tape should start at the top of those, not the bottom.

One and one half inches = 38.1 millimeters...

They have the ruler the right way up now.

But they are using an imperial tape measure to try and demonstrate a metric measurement scale.

Now I *could* convert the inches to mm if I wanted, but it would be so much easier if it was done by the creator.

I understand that imperial measurements are the norm for the US, so getting a metric ruler/ tape measure might be harder than it is in the UK (it might not, I've never been to a US DiY store), but not making that effort and understanding why mm is relevant really does paint more of a picture that these guys don't understand this market and what they are doing in it.

EDIT - oops ninja'd in the dakka downtime

Well I love the look of the artwork and the aesthetic and planted $100 ($125 for us foreigners! and will see how it goes.

Its only just started and it has been a bit all over the place quality wise but they are being open (Bar the manufacturing thing) However I recently bought some mantic deadzone stuff to paint up and my mate just cant get why I bought them as they are ABS and have mold lines everywhere etc etc, but to me that's not an issue, you just clean up the figures, ive done it on every plastic model I ever made, wargaming or display model.

However I will hover over the remove pledge button if substantial new renders\prototypes, actual physical updates start appearing. Otherwise its Gates of Antares all over again :(

They need both a better painter and a better photographer... thick paint and flash photography are not a good combination, the pics look terrible and are covered in jpg artifacts.

Not sure about the sculpts either, they look like Void or Warzone sculpts from the 90's. Again, the paintjob really just reinforces this.

 Rick_1138 wrote:
However I recently bought some mantic deadzone stuff to paint up and my mate just cant get why I bought them as they are ABS and have mold lines everywhere etc etc, but to me that's not an issue, you just clean up the figures, ive done it on every plastic model I ever made, wargaming or display model.

Deadzone is probably PVC, not ABS. ABS should be more like HIPS, the good stuff.

Ah, well its dark grey hard plastic not on sprue, so whichever is the more poor

 Rick_1138 wrote:
Ah, well its dark grey hard plastic not on sprue, so whichever is the more poor

Sounds like PVC, I believe Mantic have changed their PVC formula from the crap that was the early Dreadball stuff to make it harder, but I don't own any of it, so take it with a pinch of salt

Backer: "Just to let you know that when people asked for a shot of the miniatures next to a ruler they meant in a way that would help determine the overall scale and height."
Creator: "Yeah. I know what people want. Based on how much we have been told we are going to get sued by the other really big sci-fi game war-game maker, we have been avoiding direct comparisons like putting a picture of their miniatures on our website and KS page."

Again i am not sure that they understand how this all works. If GW wants to sue them it's not going to be because they put a size comparison picture on display. I really wish there was a way to comment on the kickstarter without backing, because it appears the creators have given up on commenting here on dakka.

Anyway, how many of you would back a new kickstarter campaign for fallen frontiers with correct sizes, materials and rules? What do you think the funding goal should be to make it a success?

Imho I don't think this is the place to discuss the FF campaign. As much as this Warprime creation seems to lack a lot, it still demands our respect for whichever effort the people behind it put into this.

Have to laugh at people still whining about getting their ruler picture, but then having to, *gasp* convert a measurement.

And it's the usual same few posters too.

I wish they'd come back here. For as much as we're giving it a hard time and joking about it, there's a lot of info that others have put up that would be to their benefit.

I think another factor is a LOT of us have been doing the Kickstarter dance for the last few years, and a certain level of fatigue and wariness have definitely settled in. Plus we've experienced plenty of stumbles and roadblocks, and learned quite a bit in the process.

I know if I ever have the gumption to do a Kickstarter campaign of giant armored anime dragons, I know I'll be turning to Dakka for feedback!

Have they said anything about how many pieces they plan for each figure to be made out of?

 scarletsquig wrote:
They need both a better painter and a better photographer... thick paint and flash photography are not a good combination, the pics look terrible and are covered in jpg artifacts.

There is nothing wrong with flash photography, it's just godawful flash photography

 Vertrucio wrote:
Have to laugh at people still whining about getting their ruler picture, but then having to, *gasp* convert a measurement.

And it's the usual same few posters too.

Have to laugh at people who don't understand basic sales techniques, like not throwing obstacles in the way of potential backers.

And it's the usual same few posters too.

 Vertrucio wrote:
Have to laugh at people still whining about getting their ruler picture, but then having to, *gasp* convert a measurement.

And it's the usual same few posters too.

Ditto

 Vertrucio wrote:
Have to laugh at people still whining about getting their ruler picture, but then having to, *gasp* convert a measurement.

And it's the usual same few posters too.

Just to clarify - I' m not whining , I don't have to convert it because I wouldn't be buying these models whatever scale they were in as I think that they aren't very good.

I'm pointing out shortcomings so that either the team running this can gain from critical feedback or others thinking of running a campaign can learn to prepare in advance what the market will expect. And because it entertains me to see businesses develop in the same way that I quite enjoy watching the Apprentice or Dragons Den - sometimes I am amused by the ineptitude, sometimes I am impressed by people's vision and passion, sometimes I learn things I didn't know - these are all good things.

I have learnt more in my life and career by people telling me what I've done that they don't like than people patting me on the back and mouthing platitudes.

 Malkaven wrote:

 Vertrucio wrote:
Have to laugh at people still whining about getting their ruler picture, but then having to, *gasp* convert a measurement.

And it's the usual same few posters too.

Ditto

Finding it hard to get to grips with the forum atmosphere if I'm honest. It's ok to insult other members for asking for a miniature's size, one of the two most important things you can't see with your own eyes, but it's not ok to make a joke about a wargaming kickstarter that doesn't know anything about miniatures?

This may take a while

It's a shame, because at times the discussions on these campaign threads threatens to get very interesting, not just about the specific KS in question but about the nature of crowdfunding in general, with contributions from both industry insiders and long-time gamers who have 'been around the block'.

These discussions could be of some use for prospective KS campaign makers, as well as those currently running a campaign looking to work out how they could increase their funding base. The cross section of Dakka posters, in terms of age, location, games played, professional experience etc must be the most varied on the web (for wargaming) which makes it an excellent place to conduct even passive market research.

Sadly, it only takes one 'whiners' comment and the whole thing collapses again into a petty slanging match of little use to anybody (for the next few pages, anyway).

To be frank, with potential backers like you, who needs detractors?

See, I do understand that some people got screwed over, partially, by other kickstarters.

But it's not really to the extent that the amount of negative posting indicates. And I wonder how many actually were part of those.

From the level of going into every kickstarter thread, and latching on to every issue, and often making snide of conspiratorial remarks in every post, you'd think they got screwed out of all their money in a big way. When in reality, the biggest issue I've seen most of these people encounter was the restic material surprising them with some sub par casts.

And heck, I actually understand all the issues people bring up, just look back and you'll see a rather long post from me outlining a serious problem. But that was a single post. Single. Post. Not the typical pile on I've been seeing, then additional conspiracy theories and name calling, that's happening right now.

The funnier thing is that, if you look at other recent kickstarter threads, the ones having the most problems are the ones people thought would be fine, like the newest issues with the 15mm mech where the caster disappeared.

And the usual comment about, "doesn't know anything about miniatures" is the silliest. Most of the people comment also wouldn't know a thing about actually making miniatures, or they wouldn't be saying that of people actually doing the miniature making.

Nor does this kind of pile on actually help all that much to other kickstarters, because it's always attached to that namecalling and conspiracy. And what's worse, instead of doing its job of informing the public or kickstarter creators, it just create that negative malaise for not reason than to create more malaise. The information was already posted, anything more isn't for other people, but rather for your own want to spread your discontent.

Such as the conversation we're having now. Even if I hadn't stepped in to comment, the negative posts would have just kept piling up until the thread was a majority of them.

 RiTides wrote:

 Barzam wrote:
I'm just using WGF as an example that it is possible to retain that level of detail while still producing a figure in plastic. These figures might just have to be cut into a bunch of tiny pieces. We won't really know until we see how they finally decide to do it.

A lot of people have more exposure to this, and so they really do know, at least in part...

The fact is that Wargames Factory and Games Workshop are absolute wizards when it comes to making figures in high impact polystyrene (HIPS). No one else comes close to being able to do what they do, except Renedra (and they're in the UK, not the US).

It takes a company experienced with making miniatures in HIPS to pull it off well. The only wargaming miniatures company I know of who has been able to go with a supplier who does not normally cast miniatures and get good results in HIPS is Hawk Wargames. And that's because he's such a wizard himself that he was able to do all the hard work of making the models such that they could be molded for production in HIPS.

This leaves only two possible explanations:

1. WarPrime has not done their homework and is planning to use a company unfamiliar with making miniatures in HIPS
2. The more likely option, WarPrime is mis-using the word "polystyrene" and is planning to use a miniature caster that is US-based, but not one that produces in HIPS

I think it is the second option, personally... but the fact is they are either out of their depth, or not being forthright... so neither option is very good, imo.

I just want to praise this analysis, great stuff.

Yeah plastic molding, for our ideosyncratic little hobby is a small, small field. We might want to add Reaper to the list of manufacturers but their Bones is a softer plastic than HIPS and I think they manufacture Bones in China.

Do we know who's doing the manufacturing for Robotech?

WGF has come a long long way in a just a few years and is now doing amazing stuff both for their own lines and for others. But it was a steep learning curve.

As we become savier about Kickstarter promises I think it's incumbent on the company to share as much information as they can to build confidence.

 Vertrucio wrote:
To be frank, with potential backers like you, who needs detractors?

See, I do understand that some people got screwed over, partially, by other kickstarters.

But it's not really to the extent that the amount of negative posting indicates. And I wonder how many actually were part of those.

From the level of going into every kickstarter thread, and latching on to every issue, and often making snide of conspiratorial remarks in every post, you'd think they got screwed out of all their money in a big way. When in reality, the biggest issue I've seen most of these people encounter was the restic material surprising them with some sub par casts.

And heck, I actually understand all the issues people bring up, just look back and you'll see a rather long post from me outlining a serious problem. But that was a single post. Single. Post. Not the typical pile on I've been seeing, then additional conspiracy theories and name calling, that's happening right now.

The funnier thing is that, if you look at other recent kickstarter threads, the ones having the most problems are the ones people thought would be fine, like the newest issues with the 15mm mech where the caster disappeared.

And the usual comment about, "doesn't know anything about miniatures" is the silliest. Most of the people comment also wouldn't know a thing about actually making miniatures, or they wouldn't be saying that of people actually doing the miniature making.

Nor does this kind of pile on actually help all that much to other kickstarters, because it's always attached to that namecalling and conspiracy. And what's worse, instead of doing its job of informing the public or kickstarter creators, it just create that negative malaise for not reason than to create more malaise. The information was already posted, anything more isn't for other people, but rather for your own want to spread your discontent.

Such as the conversation we're having now. Even if I hadn't stepped in to comment, the negative posts would have just kept piling up until the thread was a majority of them.

What conspiracies btw? I've missed them I think.

As for the rest, surely the fact that there are so many negative comments is more of an indicator that the kickstarter is not all that good rather than some indicator that people just like to say bad things for no reason? I mean I'm sure there are some trolls out there but we aren't on a youtube thread here, it's a forum about a cottage industry with a, compared to things like youtube, limited reach.

Are you not capable of just ignoring posts that just say 'crap' with no other comment? Most of the negative comments on this thread have been quite specific it seems, pointing out exactly what it is they don't like. That's the nature of public discussion surely? People say what they actually think about something.

And I certainly don't think it's unreasonable to accuse this particular kickstarter about knowing nothing about miniatures. It's incredibly badly organised, the comments from he creator are somewhat lacking in knowledge and the fact that they have now uploaded a second photograph of their minis next to a ruler without quite understanding the question alone is a huge pointer in that direction.

If I uploaded a kickstarter and a thread like this popped up with a number of non-troll posters all saying I was doing something wrong or even just laughing at how bad it was I'd actually take a long hard look at what I was doing, cos the odds are it ain't right

 Vertrucio wrote:

Such as the conversation we're having now. Even if I hadn't stepped in to comment, the negative posts would have just kept piling up until the thread was a majority of them.

Which might suggest that this campaign has issues.

Here's an issue that's been bugging me since the start of this one. The sculptor is a guy called Alain Viesca - the blurb on the KS page says "Alain has already played a key role in several successful Kickstarters ..."

Now I've never heard of Alain Viesca, so I don't know whether the role he played in the other Kickstarters was to lead production, concept art, sculpting or what - and I don't know whether these Kickstarters were for music albums, technology etc. So I just took a little time to google him. He's a great artist - pen and ink, painting, comics etc.

Potential Red Flag for me - is he like the kid who designed the Torn Armor stuff - dabbling in 3D for the first time - designing miniatures that can't be cast? Dig a little further and find that this guy has sculpted a bunch of the Raging Heroes stuff - now it's not to my tastes, but it shows he has proper form, here's a name in this Kickstarter team that has worked successfully in the miniatures field - lots of people have liked his work.

Why keep that info hidden (I don't mean that maliciously) - I'd be shouting about it - "We've got this guy - you liked him on <these> GW proxies, you'll love him on <Our> GW proxies".

Do you see how criticism can be helpful? Do you understand that if lots of people think that you are doing it wrong, the odds are that you are doing it wrong?

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 RiTides wrote:

 Barzam wrote:
I'm just using WGF as an example that it is possible to retain that level of detail while still producing a figure in plastic. These figures might just have to be cut into a bunch of tiny pieces. We won't really know until we see how they finally decide to do it.

A lot of people have more exposure to this, and so they really do know, at least in part...

The fact is that Wargames Factory and Games Workshop are absolute wizards when it comes to making figures in high impact polystyrene (HIPS). No one else comes close to being able to do what they do, except Renedra (and they're in the UK, not the US).

It takes a company experienced with making miniatures in HIPS to pull it off well. The only wargaming miniatures company I know of who has been able to go with a supplier who does not normally cast miniatures and get good results in HIPS is Hawk Wargames. And that's because he's such a wizard himself that he was able to do all the hard work of making the models such that they could be molded for production in HIPS.

This leaves only two possible explanations:

1. WarPrime has not done their homework and is planning to use a company unfamiliar with making miniatures in HIPS
2. The more likely option, WarPrime is mis-using the word "polystyrene" and is planning to use a miniature caster that is US-based, but not one that produces in HIPS

I think it is the second option, personally... but the fact is they are either out of their depth, or not being forthright... so neither option is very good, imo.

I just want to praise this analysis, great stuff.

Yeah plastic molding, for our ideosyncratic little hobby is a small, small field. We might want to add Reaper to the list of manufacturers but their Bones is a softer plastic than HIPS and I think they manufacture Bones in China.

Do we know who's doing the manufacturing for Robotech?

WGF has come a long long way in a just a few years and is now doing amazing stuff both for their own lines and for others. But it was a steep learning curve.

As we become savier about Kickstarter promises I think it's incumbent on the company to share as much information as they can to build confidence.

It's not just who, in fact I have never really had an issue with companies naming their manufacturing partners, I probably wouldn't. It's about the money. If someone said 'We have a manufacturing partner' without naming them and had given a goal of $40000 a sprue, I wouldn't care, that's a reasonable costing and new manufacturers could be trying it out every week for all we know.

However this, slightly laughable, pie graph...



... shows that this kickstarter has put aside $9680 for manufacturing. That is not a reasonable costing even for China, and as they have a big 'Made in the USA' stamp on their page it's considerably less reasonable. At that point I think it's totally fine to start questioning then on it. Again, not necessarily to name their partner as 'We aready have $100000 from outside investment, this is just the rest we need' is an acceptable answer imo.

These questions are not going to go away, we've passed the easy money stage of Kicksarter. If you aren't an established company then you are going to need the answers to these, and probably more, from this point onwards.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Do we know who's doing the manufacturing for Robotech?

No idea but they clearly aren't miniatures focused as they designed the initial molds to cut up a terminator sized models into 30+ individual pieces with almost a dozen seams running across the front of the model and things the size of space marine HEADS split down the front into two pieces. Unfortunately, both Ninja Division and Palladium were just fine with that layout and Palladium even called it "almost perfect" but luckily the overwhelmingly bad feedback got *some* of it changed.

 warboss wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Do we know who's doing the manufacturing for Robotech?

No idea but they clearly aren't miniatures focused as they designed the initial molds to cut up a terminator sized models into 30+ individual pieces with almost a dozen seams running across the front of the model and things the size of space marine HEADS split down the front into two pieces. Unfortunately, both Ninja Division and Palladium were just fine with that layout and Palladium even called it "almost perfect" but luckily the overwhelmingly bad feedback got *some* of it changed.

Why do you say things to make me sad.