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From my rulebook Rigeld

When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink. The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made. If the unit Jinks, all models in the unit with this special rule gain a 4+ cover save until the start of their next Movement phase, but they can only fire Snap Shots until the end of their next turn.

The first sentence gives permission to Jink after being declared a target. (MAY is permissive.) The second sentence is a restriction on when the ability must be used. (MUST is restrictive.)

Fairly plain English.

Fragile wrote:
From my rulebook Rigeld

When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink. The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made. If the unit Jinks, all models in the unit with this special rule gain a 4+ cover save until the start of their next Movement phase, but they can only fire Snap Shots until the end of their next turn.

The first sentence gives permission to Jink after being declared a target. (MAY is permissive.) The second sentence is a restriction on when the ability must be used. (MUST is restrictive.)

Fairly plain English.

The underlined is incorrect.
It gives permission to declare *when* you're declared a target - not after. Note the difference and please correctly quote rules next time.
May gives permission to declare when you're targeted.

I don't see "not after" mentioned in the rules though.

 milkboy wrote:
I don't see "not after" mentioned in the rules though.

I do see the word "When".

When X happens, you may do Y.
Does that mean you can do Y at some time after X happens?

Why not? When I get up, I can make my own breakfast. Does that mean I have to scramble eggs in bed?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I must do it before I go off for work. No?

Well, you're the only person in this thread basing an argument off implied semantics.

Your interpretation of the logic wrong.

If this were code, it's not "Do X if Y"

It's
...
JINX = FALSE;
do{
/* INSERT shooting phase steps here UP TO THE POINT TO-HIT ROLLS ARE BEING DECLARE */
cout << "Jinx?" ;
cin >> JINX
}while ( JINX == FALSE || ToHitRollsReady == FALSE)

Call TOHITROLLS ();

 milkboy wrote:
Why not? When I get up, I can make my own breakfast. Does that mean I have to scramble eggs in bed?

No - but *when* you wake up, you make breakfast. You don't do other stuff before you make breakfast - when X, do Y.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bryceloop wrote:
Well, you're the only person in this thread basing an argument off implied semantics.

I'm also the only person not advocating literally breaking a rule.

If this were code, it's not "Do X if Y"

It's When X, you may do Y. If you're going to summarize my argument at least do it correctly. Also, it's Jink, not Jinx.

I usually wash my face and if the occasion arises, sometimes I pass some water. :p


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But all is good as long as I make my breakfast before work.

 milkboy wrote:
I usually wash my face and if the occasion arises, sometimes I pass some water. :p


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But all is good as long as I make my breakfast before work.

In that case, when you wake up you wash your face.
Later on you make breakfast, but that's after you wash your face.

Do you understand what my point is? "When X happens, you may do Y." is not the same as "When X happens, you have until Z to do Y." The former is what the rules say, the latter is what you're pretending the rules say.

Popping in, read the statements, decided it marks the beginning and end of the option availability window.

My experience for this scenario is mostly with card games but the rulings tend to acknowledge that there is a beginning condition for when you may decide to act and an ending condition for when it's too late. When targeted opens the opportunity window as even past the targeting step, the unit is still being targeted. Nothing has made it cease being targeted. The opportunity response window closes when the to hit roll is made per the RAW. To say otherwise is to ignore the limit on To Hit in favor of a more literal interpretation which breaks the spirit of the ruling. It is clearly identified that the To Hit roll is the point when the decision is no longer permitted.

Don't you select one weapon at a time anyway?
Which was the point of this thread.
So you could never have jink after all the weapons selections.

To hit rolls are step 4, thought I would point that out.

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
From my rulebook Rigeld

When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink. The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made. If the unit Jinks, all models in the unit with this special rule gain a 4+ cover save until the start of their next Movement phase, but they can only fire Snap Shots until the end of their next turn.

The first sentence gives permission to Jink after being declared a target. (MAY is permissive.) The second sentence is a restriction on when the ability must be used. (MUST is restrictive.)

Fairly plain English.

The underlined is incorrect.
It gives permission to declare *when* you're declared a target - not after. Note the difference and please correctly quote rules next time.
May gives permission to declare when you're targeted.

The rules were quoted correctly. Your interpretation is the incorrect one. The rule obviously states when you may use Jink USR. After being declared a target. And it clearly states the timing of when you use the ability that Jink grants. Which is before TO HIT rolls. The first sentence clearly does not say what you claim, otherwise there would be no need for the second sentence.

So the first sentence says after?
Despite the fact that what you quoted doesn't contain that word?

And the Jink USR is what allows you to make the declaration in the first place, so no - the rule isn't stating when you may use the USR, it says when you may declare to Jink.
Your assertion that the first sentence gives permission after being declared a target is demonstrably false, as I pointed out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kyutaru wrote:
When targeted opens the opportunity window as even past the targeting step, the unit is still being targeted. Nothing has made it cease being targeted.

The actual rule is that you have permission to declare Jink when the unit is selected as a target, to be specific. I'm sorry if my posts led you to believe otherwise.

As the selection is a one time thing, your conclusion is based off an incorrect premise.

You have demonstrated nothing, you simply assert.

The rule gives explicit timing of its use. Before TO HIT rolls, which is after Targetting and weapon choice. You assertion is demonstrably false based on the second sentence.

I know this doesn't really help the topic but... this is really hilarious. I mean this argument is just.. bad. This is the kind of thing that kills the fun of a game.

For my money it's pretty clear- that jink is declared in response to targeting and targeting does not include the weapon. Targeting is it's own step and as such it seems absurd to me that, having its own step and timing, that a rule stipulating that as 'when' you do it would somehow be interpreted to be done outside that step.

Not that it gets used much but this exists. I see no reason why GW is incapable of having the same clarity and devoting a page in it's rulebook to such.

Fragile wrote:
You have demonstrated nothing, you simply assert.

The rule gives explicit timing of its use. Before TO HIT rolls, which is after Targetting and weapon choice. You assertion is demonstrably false based on the second sentence.

Yes, before to hit rolls, when the unit is selected for targeting.
Your assertion that you can wait until the weapon is declared breaks a rule and therefore cannot be correct - as I've shown.
You keep getting hung up on the second sentence, ignoring the first one.

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You have demonstrated nothing, you simply assert.

The rule gives explicit timing of its use. Before TO HIT rolls, which is after Targetting and weapon choice. You assertion is demonstrably false based on the second sentence.

Yes, before to hit rolls, when the unit is selected for targeting.
Your assertion that you can wait until the weapon is declared breaks a rule and therefore cannot be correct - as I've shown.
You keep getting hung up on the second sentence, ignoring the first one.

Your trying to focus on one word in the entire rule. The first sentence tells you what Jink is for. You use it against shooting attacks... as opposed to penetrates/glances, close combat attacks, etc.. The second sentence gives you the timing. It must be done prior to TO HIT rolls. The second sentence is very specific with the timing the ability is used at.

even with the argument of "you have until the to hit rolls are made" the orbital bombardment, combi-weapon etc decision can still be made.

declare a target and fire bolters at it (even if they cannot hurt it)

then choose to fire the orbital bombardment / combi-weapon or not, based on whether they jink or not.

good if you get a 5 man squad with a melta behind a waveserpent and declare "These guys are firing their bolters at you, will you jink?" "no!" "aaand now the melta, sorry, too late to jink now!"

"before rolls to hit are made" means you can't decide not to jink with, say, a FMC, get whittled down to one wound with lucky shooting then try to jink the last meltagun shot from the same unit - it's all or nothing. you can't suddenly start jinking after the unit's started firing. same with if a waveserpent gets dropped to 1HP by boys shootas because it didn't jink and suddedly that last boy with a rokkit that could only take a hullpoint is lining up to finish you off. can't jink now, should have thought of that before I shot you.

allows for mini-sneaky tactics like having an independant character just within 2" of a squad and declaring "this guy's shooting you, will you jink?" "nah, he has a bolt pistol" "...and now the rest of his squad will fire..."

I see two sides arguing, but which happens when...

Guy: These Devs will fire... at... Hmm... ... ... yourbikeswithkrakmissiles"

Me: Ok, jinking

Guy: I selected my weapon its too late to decide!

 dayve110 wrote:
I see two sides arguing, but which happens when...

Guy: These Devs will fire... at... Hmm... ... ... yourbikeswithkrakmissiles"

Me: Ok, jinking

Guy: I selected my weapon its too late to decide!

Hasn't rolled yet, so timing isn't up.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You have demonstrated nothing, you simply assert.

The rule gives explicit timing of its use. Before TO HIT rolls, which is after Targetting and weapon choice. You assertion is demonstrably false based on the second sentence.

Yes, before to hit rolls, when the unit is selected for targeting.
Your assertion that you can wait until the weapon is declared breaks a rule and therefore cannot be correct - as I've shown.
You keep getting hung up on the second sentence, ignoring the first one.

Your trying to focus on one word in the entire rule. The first sentence tells you what Jink is for. You use it against shooting attacks... as opposed to penetrates/glances, close combat attacks, etc.. The second sentence gives you the timing. It must be done prior to TO HIT rolls. The second sentence is very specific with the timing the ability is used at.

Would you mind not misquoting or misrepresenting the first sentence? You continually do so...

When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink.

That doesn't tell you what Jink is for, that sets up timing. Using your argument it could be ignored entirely. So let's look at the rule completely ignoring the first sentence as you seem to want to do.

The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made. If the unit Jinks, ... .

What decision? Can I make the decision at the start of the game during movement? How often do I need to make this decision?
Please, answer these questions with rules based arguments and remember - you cannot use the first sentence of the Jink SR.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dayve110 wrote:
I see two sides arguing, but which happens when...

Guy: These Devs will fire... at... Hmm... ... ... yourbikeswithkrakmissiles"

Me: Ok, jinking

Guy: I selected my weapon its too late to decide!

See, that's cheating. Guy merged multiple steps of the firing sequence together and he shouldn't have.
It's also a stupid way to attempt to prove a point - what if guy had rolled dice at the same time be blurted out those words? OMG ITS TOO LAATE

If it makes you feel better rigeld, I agree with you. The RAW could not be clearer.

I just didn't want to get involved in an argument. The only time I'm really interested in discussing the rules is when there are people still on the fence, or still questioning things. Here, it seemed like everyone has been going into the discussion with their minds made up, so trying to convince anyone didn't really seem productive.

Yes, you can change what weapons you fire based on whether or not your opponent chooses to Jink. It's black and white.

It doesn't make me feel better or worse really :-)
Like I said, mob rule doesn't mean anything when discussing what the rules say.

the weird thing is, it seems like both ways are right... declare jink when targetted or declare jink when first weapon is declared, both fall under the whole rule that says when targeted and before shots are fired. the fact that you have to say what the first gun you're firing is - so what? just fire the unconditional guns first and see if they jink.

some bloke, does declaring Jink at the time of target declaration fulfill the requirement to declare before To Hit rolls are made?

Does declaring Jink right before To Hit rolls are made, fulfill the requirement to declare when the unit is targeted?

You know the more I think about it the more I can see where people are coming from with the 'before To Hit rolls' argument. If you assume the 'When' bit is just referring to the general process of getting shot at rather than a specific timing step I'd have to agree that the decision is made at any time before To Hit.

But Happyjew has the most compelling answer above. The requirements of 'when targeted' and 'before To Hit' are both met one way and only half met the other.

Kojiro, my "compelling answer" is exactly what rigeld has been saying this entire time.

As it has not come up in game yet, I've no idea how my group plays it (mostly because I've only played one game of 7th), but I can see it being played either way, and would not argue about it.

Kyutaru wrote:
Meanwhile, the opposition has been giving the other compelling answer that meets Happy's qualifications. The requirement of declaring when targeted is fulfilled even if waiting for weapons to be selected because the target is still being targeted. Units can gain bonuses when assaulting, bonuses that apply throughout the assault phase beginning when they actually declare a charge.

Except:
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot.
2. Choose a Target. <--- When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink.
3. Select a Weapon.
3.x <---- The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made.
4. Make To hit Rolls

There are steps and declaring at 2 violates neither of the denoted timings. Declaring at 3.x violates 'When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target'.

BRB, page 167; "When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink. The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made..."

The Jink doesn't have to be called when targeted but has to be called before To Hit rolls. So, RAW, the defender can declare it at any point between being being selected as a target and To Hit rolls being made.

 dg3263827 wrote:
BRB, page 167; "When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink. The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made..."

The Jink doesn't have to be called when targeted but has to be called before To Hit rolls. So, RAW, the defender can declare it at any point between being being selected as a target and To Hit rolls being made.

What does the first word of the rule say?
The words you emphasized aren't the important ones in the rule.