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Is population for each race rising or falling? By how much? (I am clueless about this topic.)

I'm positive that Ork and Tyranid numbers are growing, but I don't know how fast.
Necron numbers are always the same, no?

What about other races?

They cannot make new Necrons, so their population remains relatively stable. There's the odd instance where a Necron unit is utterly destroyed and it fails to Phase Out, but this is extremely rare.

Tyranids and Orks are always multiplying. Humanity, too, for that matter.

Eldar are in decline, Dark Eldar definitely are not.

Tau? Probably rising, but slowly, as their culture has fairly strict breeding programs.

No one is sure on the minor Xenos races.

With dark eldar it's important to note the difference between true-born which ARE in decline (mostly through attrition) but they have the same birthing issues as eldar (more so because they consider a threat to their station to be out of politics that long)
And vat-born which are the sole reason the race isn't going the way of their cousins.

Eldar are in decline, natural born anyway, not sure on numbers of other dark eldar born via artificial means.

Necrons have minor, well very minor loss due to no new necrons made.

Tau expanding empire, humanity grows by billions as day
Orks empires are expanding and getting more organised, tyranoids tasks loss,s but they always are gaining numbers by bio mass destruction of planets.

Tyranids are actually hard to explain as a population.. Counting bugs as population is like counting bullets for IG population, they get created weeks/days before an invasion only to be eaten after devouring a system.. It would be easier to count the ships as population...

Even saying that there are indications that population has some SHARP drops, rather the Imperium and eldar have had more success starving the ships of bio-mass through exterminatus...
Remember for each hive fleet that gluts successfully two have been wiped out to the level of splinters through great sacrifice.. The only problem is tht for each successfully destroyed, two more come out of the void...
I'd argue Nids population fluctuates, growing inside the know. Galaxy but decreasing as a whole.

Given that it is unknown how many Hive Fleets remain in the inter-galactic Void, I think any estimation on the Tyranid's population curve is speculative at best....

... though the fact that every destroyed fleet is replaced by 2 more from beyond the galactic rim indicates there are far more bugs without than within, and who knows how far back that fleet stretches.

Has it ever actually been explained why the Eldar have low birth-rates?

 Inquisitor Bob wrote:
Tyranids are actually hard to explain as a population.. Counting bugs as population is like counting bullets for IG population, they get created weeks/days before an invasion only to be eaten after devouring a system.. It would be easier to count the ships as population...

Even saying that there are indications that population has some SHARP drops, rather the Imperium and eldar have had more success starving the ships of bio-mass through exterminatus...
Remember for each hive fleet that gluts successfully two have been wiped out to the level of splinters through great sacrifice.. The only problem is tht for each successfully destroyed, two more come out of the void...
I'd argue Nids population fluctuates, growing inside the know. Galaxy but decreasing as a whole.

Tyranids would be better described if their mass is increasing or decreasing rather than population numbers.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Has it ever actually been explained why the Eldar have low birth-rates?

I think its because it takes so long for the baby to be born.

 Inquisitor Bob wrote:
With dark eldar it's important to note the difference between true-born which ARE in decline (mostly through attrition) but they have the same birthing issues as eldar (more so because they consider a threat to their station to be out of politics that long)
And vat-born which are the sole reason the race isn't going the way of their cousins.

If the DE decided they needed more trueborn for some reason they could easily put into place a forced breeding program.

Also vat-born are genetically identical to trueborn they are simply removed from the womb and brought to term in a vat allowing the parents to remain unhindered during the pregnancy. Though some are treated with growth hormones to make then grow faster.

 Inquisitor Bob wrote:
Tyranids are actually hard to explain as a population.. Counting bugs as population is like counting bullets for IG population, they get created weeks/days before an invasion only to be eaten after devouring a system.. It would be easier to count the ships as population...

Even saying that there are indications that population has some SHARP drops, rather the Imperium and eldar have had more success starving the ships of bio-mass through exterminatus...
Remember for each hive fleet that gluts successfully two have been wiped out to the level of splinters through great sacrifice.. The only problem is tht for each successfully destroyed, two more come out of the void...
I'd argue Nids population fluctuates, growing inside the know. Galaxy but decreasing as a whole.

That's pure speculation though, as there are absolutely no numbers to examine. There is plenty of evidence to support the "starve the fleets and their numbers decrease" theory, but there is also plenty of evidence to support the extremely rapid replenishment of the fleets. The Leviathan tendril that was lured into the Octarius sector was almost totally destroyed in a space battle with the Orks in the Ghorala system, to the point that it was down to a single dying ship that made it to Ghorala itself before dying. The spores it launched at the jungles of Ghorala created a Tyranid infestation that eluded the Orks for months, then out-thought and finally out-fought the Orks in the system and within the year they had not only scoured the planet of all life but had also birthed new bioships on the planet to spread to other nearby worlds.

We simply don't have enough information to call the Tyranids one way or another.

The Imperium uses its vast population as expendable warriors on the front lines and oppressed laborers. They neglect the fact that mankind has ceased to grow as fast as it once did, huge numbers of people are dying all the time, and mutation is becoming increasingly widespread. While the Imperium has people to spare right now, they might find their hive-cities ruined and abandoned and their settlements sparsely populated in the future.

The Eldar have a quickly dwindling population. It's not just because the Eldar take a long time to grow up- it's because they don't want to make babies anymore. In such a grim time after the fall of their empire, what Eldar would choose to have a child? I mean, they know that the kids soul will be inevitably doomed to being enslaved by Slaanesh.

The Orks are always around. Stable as always.

Why is the child doomed to be eaten by slaanesh?

Eldar birth rates are low because they only become fertile when they in high emotional states from attachments.. This seems to be the theme through most elf/eldar fantasy novels.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Has it ever actually been explained why the Eldar have low birth-rates?

Because a bunch of ballsy Eldar have to make a mad rush to a Maiden World and claim Tears of Isha while running like mad from the Slaanesh daemons hot on their heels.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mysterious Pants wrote:
The Imperium uses its vast population as expendable warriors on the front lines and oppressed laborers. They neglect the fact that mankind has ceased to grow as fast as it once did, huge numbers of people are dying all the time, and mutation is becoming increasingly widespread. While the Imperium has people to spare right now, they might find their hive-cities ruined and abandoned and their settlements sparsely populated in the future.

The Eldar have a quickly dwindling population. It's not just because the Eldar take a long time to grow up- it's because they don't want to make babies anymore. In such a grim time after the fall of their empire, what Eldar would choose to have a child? I mean, they know that the kids soul will be inevitably doomed to being enslaved by Slaanesh.

The Orks are always around. Stable as always.

Of course you've got quotes to back up the bolded when I don't recall it ever even being stated in Eldar fluff?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Has it ever actually been explained why the Eldar have low birth-rates?

Because an Eldar female requires several couplings in order to get pregnant, even if she's actually trying to conceive (as opposed to random hook-ups in the Craftworld Cantina). IIRC, she also needs genetic material from a number of different suitors (I suppose it can be said that any Eldar has one mother and several fathers). Of course, being that this is a biological process, there remains the possibility that the genetic material between two or more of the potential fathers may not be compatible, for whatever reason, which will render the zygote unviable, or fail to achieve fertilization.

If the source for the "multiple fathers" thing is Xenology, it is highly suspect. Even if it isn't, it's an extremely stupid concept.

At any rate, there is no conceivable reason why the Eldar could be in decline, because any genetic issues they could possibly have could be solved with biotechnology. Fabulous Bill the Random Chaos Space Marine can make Space Marines, the barbaric Imperium of Man can grow replacement limbs and organs, and the youngling Tau are probably doing genetic manipulation (conflicting sources). What would possibly stop the Eldar - the species that prides itself so highly on its advanced technology - from doing something so simple? I'd be surprised if the graceful, prideful Eldar didn't consider "natural" birth an inelegant, brutish alternative to the Cradle of Vaul or whatever they'd call it. The Dark Eldar have a stigma associated with those birthed from their science, but that's just part of their culture (a culture which relies on slavery and is all about bloodlines, backstabbing, and so on).

What would possibly stop the Eldar - the species that prides itself so highly on its advanced technology - from doing something so simple?

Replacement limbs and organs are comparatively simple. We can basically do this now, through stem cells, and what is preventing further development of this field in M3 is political issues rather than technological ones.

However, unlike the Eldar, we have not suffered a civilization-destroying event in our comparatively-recent history that may have caused the Eldar the loss of the bulk of their technological foundation. Remember, the Eldar that fled to the Craftworlds were the Eldar of their empire who were basically country bumpkins, frowning at the "city folk" of the Pleasure Cults and such that caused the birth of Slaanesh.

These people may simply not have possessed the technical knowledge, skill and resources required to advance research into this subject when they boarded the Craftworlds, and have not managed to recreate said foundation in the 10,000 years since that time because they lacked the people with the know-how and the tech to do so.

In other words, if Earth had a calamitous event, and you had only a fraction of the population survive, and all your medical personnel were registered nurses, dental technicians, country doctors and veterinarians, then you're lacking the skill-set required for advanced genetics research. If you also failed to acquire the then-bleeding-edge of research data on the subject, this will, in time, become a lost science.

The Dark Eldar figured it out quite quickly, and those of the Craftworlds are still scientifically apt. The equivalent of the "country bumpkins" of a society as supremely advanced as the pre-Fall Eldar are still far beyond anything we have. They still have scientists, and surely this exact issue is severely important to them. Also, Eldar are extremely intelligent and have powerful magic at their disposal.

It's worse than that, though. Not only should they by all rights been able to develop this technology themselves (assuming it was lost in the Fall), the Dark Eldar already have it! The pirates who scrounge for resources are supposed to have infinitely superior biotechnology to the spacefaring civilisations of the Craftworlds? Even if they do, why can't the Craftworld Eldar acquire this technology?

Now consider the Exodites. How do they survive at all? They have the same biology (and thus the same reproduction issues) as Craftworld Eldar, but they live with less technology and have to hunt for food. This makes them much more susceptible to disease, weather, and being eaten by predators, and yet they have stable societies.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
The Dark Eldar figured it out quite quickly, and those of the Craftworlds are still scientifically apt. The equivalent of the "country bumpkins" of a society as supremely advanced as the pre-Fall Eldar are still far beyond anything we have. They still have scientists, and surely this exact issue is severely important to them. Also, Eldar are extremely intelligent and have powerful magic at their disposal.

It's worse than that, though. Not only should they by all rights been able to develop this technology themselves (assuming it was lost in the Fall), the Dark Eldar already have it! The pirates who scrounge for resources are supposed to have infinitely superior biotechnology to the spacefaring civilisations of the Craftworlds? Even if they do, why can't the Craftworld Eldar acquire this technology?

Now consider the Exodites. How do they survive at all? They have the same biology (and thus the same reproduction issues) as Craftworld Eldar, but they live with less technology and have to hunt for food. This makes them much more susceptible to disease, weather, and being eaten by predators, and yet they have stable societies.

That's because Eldar reproduction issues has nothing to do with biology, it's a matter of Slaanesh and needing protection from She Who Thirsts with soul stones. Craftworld Eldar require Tears of Isha for new children to be born, or else their souls would be incredibly vulnerable to Slaanesh and putting them at risk of having their soul ripped from them and plunged into eternal torment. Exodites meanwhile are protected by the crystal networks of the planets they live on, which function like gigantic infinity circuits.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
The Dark Eldar figured it out quite quickly, and those of the Craftworlds are still scientifically apt. The equivalent of the "country bumpkins" of a society as supremely advanced as the pre-Fall Eldar are still far beyond anything we have. They still have scientists, and surely this exact issue is severely important to them. Also, Eldar are extremely intelligent and have powerful magic at their disposal.

It's worse than that, though. Not only should they by all rights been able to develop this technology themselves (assuming it was lost in the Fall), the Dark Eldar already have it! The pirates who scrounge for resources are supposed to have infinitely superior biotechnology to the spacefaring civilisations of the Craftworlds? Even if they do, why can't the Craftworld Eldar acquire this technology?

Now consider the Exodites. How do they survive at all? They have the same biology (and thus the same reproduction issues) as Craftworld Eldar, but they live with less technology and have to hunt for food. This makes them much more susceptible to disease, weather, and being eaten by predators, and yet they have stable societies.

The Dark Eldar are those city-slicker Eldar I mentioned previously. The survivors of the Pleasure Cults that destroyed their society would have, in all likelihood, been in a position to access the requisite knowledge and technology that I mentioned previously. If you want to know how pre-Fall Eldar functioned, look to Commoragh... *that* is how the Eldar Empire used to be.

Yeah, Dark Eldar are basically the remnants of the Eldar empire, while the Craftworld Eldar are those Crazy Puritan Folk who fled the empire before its fall.

And ended up being right, in this case.

(applying logic here rather than fluff)

Eldar are a technologically advanced race, which means they likely went through the sort of stuff humans are going through now. so here's my theory:

1: Eldar used C-sections to give birth (like we started doing in the last hundred years or so)
2: This caused babies with the genetic makeup to make them incapable of giving birth naturally to survive (evolution in its most basic form, this is our future).
3: Over a long period of time (into our future here) the race became dependant on C-sections in order to reproduce, and no longer being limited to females with child-bearing hips, evolved into the super-slim shape we know them for.
4: Slaanesh happened, they lost all their homeland with the doctors etc
5: none of them can give birth naturally any more, and the race dies out.

now, as for orks, their population is only growing. every ork that dies produces spores, those spores grow into orks. as orks explore the universe looking for stuff to fight, orks are inevitably left behind on planets, having stopped, gotten off to fight, found there's nothing there and not made it back to the ship on time. this planet will slowly become infested with orks (as they'll be fighting with one another over whos fault it is they got left behind) which will form clans, have wars, and eventually be populated enough to start their own WAAAGH!. so ork populations are only increasing.

due to the sheer quantity of civilians, the very presence of hive-cities and humanity's overwhelming desire to spread like a cancerous wart on a planet (as has only been evidenced here on earth) I'd imagine that human populations will be increasing at a greater rate than humans are dying. the earth has become overpopulated in the last 500 years, can you imagine how many babies will be born every day in 38000 years? think of it this way, on earth there are like 200 odd people with "strange abilities" like being magnetic or whatnot. in the future the emporor has 10000 psykers, most of which die in their making, just for his choir. there's a loooot of 'oomies out there.

 some bloke wrote:
(applying logic here rather than fluff)

Eldar are a technologically advanced race, which means they likely went through the sort of stuff humans are going through now. so here's my theory:

1: Eldar used C-sections to give birth (like we started doing in the last hundred years or so)
2: This caused babies with the genetic makeup to make them incapable of giving birth naturally to survive (evolution in its most basic form, this is our future).
3: Over a long period of time (into our future here) the race became dependant on C-sections in order to reproduce, and no longer being limited to females with child-bearing hips, evolved into the super-slim shape we know them for.
4: Slaanesh happened, they lost all their homeland with the doctors etc
5: none of them can give birth naturally any more, and the race dies out.

now, as for orks, their population is only growing. every ork that dies produces spores, those spores grow into orks. as orks explore the universe looking for stuff to fight, orks are inevitably left behind on planets, having stopped, gotten off to fight, found there's nothing there and not made it back to the ship on time. this planet will slowly become infested with orks (as they'll be fighting with one another over whos fault it is they got left behind) which will form clans, have wars, and eventually be populated enough to start their own WAAAGH!. so ork populations are only increasing.

due to the sheer quantity of civilians, the very presence of hive-cities and humanity's overwhelming desire to spread like a cancerous wart on a planet (as has only been evidenced here on earth) I'd imagine that human populations will be increasing at a greater rate than humans are dying. the earth has become overpopulated in the last 500 years, can you imagine how many babies will be born every day in 38000 years? think of it this way, on earth there are like 200 odd people with "strange abilities" like being magnetic or whatnot. in the future the emporor has 10000 psykers, most of which die in their making, just for his choir. there's a loooot of 'oomies out there.

What's with people developing all of these ludicrous theories surrounding why Eldar aren't reproducing at a human-like rate, when there's an easy explanation in the fluff? Am I invisible or something? Eldar. Babies. Need. Tears. Of. Isha. Without Tears of Isha Eldar children are incredibly vulnerable to Slaanesh and can have their souls ripped clean out of them by Daemonettes by so simply exercising their psyker abilities. Craftworld Eldar need Soulstones to reproduce to ensure the new child doesn't die a miserable death and end up suffering for eternity in the clutches of Daemonettes. Soulstones also unfortunately happen to only be procurable in the Eye of Terror which is incredibly dangerous and can easily result in the destruction of the questing Eldar party. Plus, Eldar children also take a great deal of time to raise- I'd imagine it's quite a full time job for the mother, more so than with humans. Eldar Children need to be taught from birth how to control their violent emotions and suppress their psyker powers lest they attract the attention of Chaos. Also, I'm not familiar with how fast Eldar grow up compared to the two decades of humans, but given the complexity of the Eldar brain it might take over three decades for them to reach adulthood.

Plus, Eldar don't seem to be as joyful on the subject of reproduction as humans, given their strong emotions it's probably incredibly difficult for Eldar to form relationship and, looking at Path of the Eldar, appears to be fairly hit and miss.

I think you mean Spirit-Stones or Soulstones. The Tears of Isha are a mythological thing to the Eldar, dating back to the earlier years of their civilization and a war between their gods.

Psienesis wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
The Dark Eldar figured it out quite quickly, and those of the Craftworlds are still scientifically apt. The equivalent of the "country bumpkins" of a society as supremely advanced as the pre-Fall Eldar are still far beyond anything we have. They still have scientists, and surely this exact issue is severely important to them. Also, Eldar are extremely intelligent and have powerful magic at their disposal.

It's worse than that, though. Not only should they by all rights been able to develop this technology themselves (assuming it was lost in the Fall), the Dark Eldar already have it! The pirates who scrounge for resources are supposed to have infinitely superior biotechnology to the spacefaring civilisations of the Craftworlds? Even if they do, why can't the Craftworld Eldar acquire this technology?

Now consider the Exodites. How do they survive at all? They have the same biology (and thus the same reproduction issues) as Craftworld Eldar, but they live with less technology and have to hunt for food. This makes them much more susceptible to disease, weather, and being eaten by predators, and yet they have stable societies.

The Dark Eldar are those city-slicker Eldar I mentioned previously. The survivors of the Pleasure Cults that destroyed their society would have, in all likelihood, been in a position to access the requisite knowledge and technology that I mentioned previously. If you want to know how pre-Fall Eldar functioned, look to Commoragh... *that* is how the Eldar Empire used to be.

In culture, yes. Not in technology. Otherwise, the Dark Eldar would be much more powerful than they currently are, with sufficient technology to put the Necrons to shame.

some bloke wrote:(applying logic here rather than fluff)

Eldar are a technologically advanced race, which means they likely went through the sort of stuff humans are going through now. so here's my theory:

1: Eldar used C-sections to give birth (like we started doing in the last hundred years or so)
2: This caused babies with the genetic makeup to make them incapable of giving birth naturally to survive (evolution in its most basic form, this is our future).
3: Over a long period of time (into our future here) the race became dependant on C-sections in order to reproduce, and no longer being limited to females with child-bearing hips, evolved into the super-slim shape we know them for.
4: Slaanesh happened, they lost all their homeland with the doctors etc
5: none of them can give birth naturally any more, and the race dies out.

This is not logical because this is not at all how evolution works.

Wyzilla wrote:

What's with people developing all of these ludicrous theories surrounding why Eldar aren't reproducing at a human-like rate, when there's an easy explanation in the fluff? Am I invisible or something? Eldar. Babies. Need. Tears. Of. Isha. Without Tears of Isha Eldar children are incredibly vulnerable to Slaanesh and can have their souls ripped clean out of them by Daemonettes by so simply exercising their psyker abilities. Craftworld Eldar need Soulstones to reproduce to ensure the new child doesn't die a miserable death and end up suffering for eternity in the clutches of Daemonettes. Soulstones also unfortunately happen to only be procurable in the Eye of Terror which is incredibly dangerous and can easily result in the destruction of the questing Eldar party. Plus, Eldar children also take a great deal of time to raise- I'd imagine it's quite a full time job for the mother, more so than with humans. Eldar Children need to be taught from birth how to control their violent emotions and suppress their psyker powers lest they attract the attention of Chaos. Also, I'm not familiar with how fast Eldar grow up compared to the two decades of humans, but given the complexity of the Eldar brain it might take over three decades for them to reach adulthood.

The raising thing is a non-issue, but I've been thinking about this topic and concluded that soul stones are the only possible explanation for "declining". It just seems to be the implication that the Dark Eldar are not in decline because they have vat-birthing, rather than because they don't use soul-stones. Honestly, I think what we are doing is ascribing a logical explanation to an issue not considered by official writers. "The Eldar are dying out" is good enough for them.

However, this still means the Eldar race isn't in decline. If the Exodites are protected by their local Infinity Circuits, why can't those of Craftworlds do the same? Even if they don't, and Craftworld Eldar die out, the Exodites will live on anyway.

For all their decline, and despite what the narration keeps telling you, the evidence actually points to Eldar being around 10-100 times more populous from just after the fall, and that's just Craftworld Eldar.

I'm completely fine with that. I really like the Eldar, and it takes nothing away from their appeal to remove the "they're going extinct" thing. They already have that tone with the idea that they used to be the undisputed masters of the galaxy and no longer are, anyway.

 Psienesis wrote:
I think you mean Spirit-Stones or Soulstones. The Tears of Isha are a mythological thing to the Eldar, dating back to the earlier years of their civilization and a war between their gods.

That's what Soulstones are, the Tears of Isha. They're made from the souls of the Eldar ghosts who still wander their lost worlds made corporeal, which at specific times will literally rain down on the planet's surface.

Also, considering the Eldar Empire at their height may have lived in such ludicrous numbers as a tredecillion, from the Eldar point of view they are indeed dying out. Even if there's several billion Craftworld Eldar and trillions of Dark Eldar. Somebody needs to slap GW with a basic arithmetic math book, they don't seem to understand how silly the numbers are they're throwing out.

 Wyzilla wrote:
They're made from the souls of the Eldar ghosts who still wander their lost worlds made corporeal, which at specific times will literally rain down on the planet's surface.

Don't they just coalesce from the raw stuff of the Warp?