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 keezus wrote:

Top sellers yes. You'll go through a crap ton of cases. Margin on boxes / cases is generally poor.

You don't have to deep discount on pre-order boxes. Just a bit. In Canada, the largest online seller (Face to Face Games) preorders booster boxes at $100. So come in somewhere between there and full MSRP and you'll be fine for margins.

Sets are hit and miss. Inistrad sold like hotcakes. Journey to Nyx is so terrible it can't even be given away.

Third sets in a block are like that. Avacyn Restored, Dragon's Maze, Journey into Nyx. All do worse than the lead and second set in their block. So you stock less of the third set in a block. The other thing that causes reduced sales of later sets is you don't have a draft season that is 3x Journey into Nyx like you had 3x Theros. So you're going to want to stock less of JOU than THS.

Niche items are hit and miss and can't be relied upon to be consistent revenue generation. For example: Commander MK1 was a hot seller. Commander MK2 was a dud.

Wow. You really don't know what you're talking about. Commander MK2 sold out in preorder and there were waiting lists all around the world for the reprint. Then they were reprinted again. People were paying Walmart and Target employees to set aside the product for them and not stock it on the shelves. Now they've hit saturation and buying has drastically slowed down, but it was probably one of the most successful product launches ever for MTG.

As primary generator of profit, basing the entire business around card players is hard because they are a fickle bunch. Events will be poorly attended unless there is lucrative prize support. Even with rich prize support, all it takes is an underattended event to put you in the red. Downsizing the prize support if your event is underattended will generate poor word of mouth.

Prize support is based on attendance. It's a simple formula that works. Having prize levels set regardless of attendance is how you lose money.

And you build attendance up, not just launch a big event. You need 4 people at FNM to make it work. And you pre sell registrations to pre-releases so you know how many sealed kits and prize packs you'll need.

About eBaying the leftovers - Not sure what the metric is on recovery of capital on this either... with no min-bid... not sure if it balances out in the black.

It's just a means of clearing out stock so it doesn't clog up shelf space and use up capital. And for everything that goes for only half retail, you'll get another thing that goes for twice retail like Modern Masters. If you end up clearing more on ebay than you sold, bring in less.

The other thing that can consistently sell well are the $15 starters that casual players like. The local shops here go through tons of them. And they run league events where you buy them as the basis and add boosters each week, have a trade session and play games.

MTG success isn't about just catering to the competitive players. It's about building a community in your store where people keep coming back.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just wanted to add a bit more about why you don't keep old stock as a retailer.

Here's a chart of the average prices for cards on the secondary market for the Journey Into Nyx set:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/index/JOU#paper

Notice how the highest price per card on the secondary market is paid in pre-order and then it drops from there. This is consistent at pretty much every release.

You'll also find something pretty similar on eBay with special releases like the Commander Decks, Duel Decks and the like. Early spike with a mad scramble and then as Wizards prints more, the secondary market slowly drops out and there's less interest among players for the given set. So don't over order and if you find yourself sitting on a booster box beyond the one you have open to sell pecks and it's almost time to get the next set in, clear your stock via the internet.

The other reason to do it via the internet and not face to face is that you don't want your locals to get the idea that if they just wait long enough, you'll deep discount. You want to send your discounted product to other people's markets, because they'll be trying to send theirs to yours!

Do you have a business plan that tells you what you need to sell each day to cover expenses?

 Easy E wrote:
Do you have a business plan that tells you what you need to sell each day to cover expenses?

Somebody's only scanned the thread....

Hi OP, I've no experience running a business so I'll share my viewpoint as a gamer.

As for paying for tables, I think it may be wise to have it. It does help to move traffic because with a time limit (which can still be generous) you enable more players to play for a given time. Free tables, players may hog it and others may not get a chance.

If you are worried about paying to play driving customers away, you can have discounts for those who may not be able to afford it. As a student, I would have avoided paying to play and choose another LGS. But as a working adult, I think a few dollars to help defray the FLGS (mostly if it is F) is fine by me. Perhaps students can pay 20% of table rental rates? Something like that.

Interesting Milkboy.....

What if rather than paying for each table there were strict (ish) time limits and a monthly membership which would alow some sort of priority in booking tables plus a 10% discount on all store purchases. I would be 10% cheaper than RRP on webstore and this would allow people the same discount in store whilst generating a loyalty to the physical store.

I was also thinking of having a loyalty card where for every £250 or something like that you would receive 25% discount on your next purchase.

Plus ontop of all this I have an idea that may just work.....

?....FW do not do a trade discount so I would stock their items at full cost to me but customers would not be paying shipping so would buy from store and hopefully pick up other items at the same time....thoughts???

That FW plan sounds like a terrible use of capital. Margins. <-- any small retailer needs to be familiar with protecting them.

HI,
I am a long way from you (Berkshire) but I would love to have a facility where I could play on big tables, free is good but to be honest, I would also pay.

Good luck with your venture - and make sure you have the cashflow sorted!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As to how to split the pay/play times, let demand decided. Start everyone off free, then when it gets too busy, start charging in the busy periods.

Thats a good idea with just charging at peak times. I like it.

With regards to the FW margins taking capital, I wholeheartedly agree but feel that it would be a footfall generator and would work like the MTG cards where they are not about the profit but more about the access for customers. I could maybe mark them up 5 % to take a small profit and still be cheaper than FW postage?

 McManiak wrote:
?....FW do not do a trade discount so I would stock their items at full cost to me but customers would not be paying shipping so would buy from store and hopefully pick up other items at the same time....thoughts???

Probably not a good idea. FW stuff tends to have a lot of variation in which things a particular customer wants. They're usually unique centerpiece models or something for a special product, and many people who buy FW kits don't buy very many of them. So two players with the same army might each want 1-2 FW kits, but there's no guarantee that they'll be the same kits. You can maybe try to guess at what items are most popular, but you have a high risk of either getting stuck with stock that nobody in your area has any interest in, or having to constantly tell people that you don't have the kit they want.

What I've seen stores do is arrange group orders to reach the free shipping level. You might not make any profit from it, but it's an easy bit of community building that might get people to come to your store instead of the competition.

Just to clarify, when I said pay to play, I dont mean like x amount for y time. I meant that they pay a set amount for the use of the tables. For example, in my FLGS, you go in and there is a shop front, and a door leading out back to ~30 tables. It's £3-something to go and use the tables for as long as you want. Alternatively, it's £17.50 per quarter and you can use the tables for free when ever you want (club nights or not).

 azreal13 wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
Do you have a business plan that tells you what you need to sell each day to cover expenses?

Somebody's only scanned the thread....

Yup, busted. However, it never hurts to reiterate the most important question over and over and over again. I have seen way too many people fail over this easy mistake.

I would say don't ignore the historical players, most gaming clubs that i know who have nights for 40k or warhammer also have one or two nights for historical gaming.

Stock the basics like Warlord, Perry, Plastic soldier company and maybe some flames of war. Also some quick games like Wings of Glory and Sails of Glory would not go amiss if you can get hold of them.

Probably goes without saying, but alternatives to GW paints, something like Vallejo.

Would definitely say go for the card games, i am forever spending money left right and center on MTG whenever i go near a store that stock them.

Board games as well, Zombicide, Lords of Waterdeep the Firefly game i have all seen do well in gaming clubs, not sure what your margins would be like but if your bringing in the card playing crowd board games always seem to be popular with them as well even if they are not into war gaming.

Then simple modeling supplies, bases, metal, wooden and perspex rods etc, the kind of thing that is useful for any modeler.

I also believe Battlefront, the Battlegroup chaps, Warlord games and Mantic have some sort of support for demo games so i would contact them about that see if they could help you.

Advertise in Wargames illustrated to, and also try and get some presence in any localish wargame shows.

Make sure you are fully up on your liability and have some thoughts if you are going to have adults and children sharing the same space to public protection issues.

All good guys,

Zambro I did think you meant per table per hour but still wouldn't charge for them I don't think.

Hadn't thought about the child adult protection other than having all staff with a current crb so will look into that.

Historical games look like a good idea upon a bit more research too.

Kerp it coming

Contact the manufacturer of every product line you want to sell. For example, if you want to have some Bolt Action stuff going on, find out from Warlord if there's some sort of volunteer demo team or how you go about sponsoring one in your area if a customer is interested in doing that. GW has largely abandoned leveraging volunteer event organizers, but everyone else hasn't. If you can get dedicated fans to do the organizing of events and the demoing of the game for you, that's less work for you.

It would be good to get tourneys for your store up, and be very co operative with your customers like games workshop and their school league and painting sessions and all that baloney. Your store will get so much more popular that way


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's best to charge for your games to, by the way, and if you do some late night games it's probably a good idea to get pizzas, kebabs, etc. (it's what my war gaming club do)

Just to pickup on Forgeworld again, some nice models painted on display maybe but to stock them is suicide. Not even for the lack of profit.



They do vary immensely in Quality, If I buy from you and it's not fixable it's you I'll be gunning down, I ring up Forge World they send me new bits. (yes they are very nice people on the telephone)

You can group order things as suggested above, but again it will be you dealing with any problems as it'll be your name on the invoice.

Get yourself a Criminal Records Check and a Working with Children card (or whatever the UK equivalent is) if you're going to be running gaming nights where you have under-age players. Make sure all your staff have them as well - before they start.



There's also been a big thread on charging for tables in the past. You'll have to see how your local area goes with it.

For me (and I'm an older one with $ now) it would put me off and make me far less loyal to a FLGS - it's piss easy for me to buy anything I want online, so if I'm going to potentially pay more in your FLGS, you don't want to put me off.

Or I'll pay your 3 quid if I must, but screw you, if you're going to be like that - I'll buy the majority of my new army online instead then!

...if you see what I mean.

I saw this brought up in another forum, but it's a good idea. If you are dead set on charging to play on the tables, instead get a fridge or vending machine and stock it with drinks. Make a 2 drink minimum (not hard, gamers get thirsty constantly bickering over games) and you'll probably get more back than what you were going to charge per table.

Hi guys thanks for all the input so far and please keep it coming. It really is invaluable. I did a video on my youtube channel the day I started this thread and if you would like a little more insight to what I want to do the please check it out. I'll be updating both here and on youtube with both the store progression and my hobby stuff too so please subscribe.

New war game store ideas and feedback wanted: http://youtu.be/qWAGN6zqv9k

Thanks again

Martin

 McManiak wrote:
Interesting Milkboy.....

What if rather than paying for each table there were strict (ish) time limits and a monthly membership which would alow some sort of priority in booking tables plus a 10% discount on all store purchases. I would be 10% cheaper than RRP on webstore and this would allow people the same discount in store whilst generating a loyalty to the physical store.

You plan on selling at 10% off online but at full price instore? Well that sounds like the world's most awful business plan right there.

For what its worth, the owner of my flgs says he makes as much of his money on Magic the Gathering than all the other games he sells combined, including the usual suspects like 40k, WHFB, D&D, Warmachine, X-Wing, etc.

 McManiak wrote:
There doesn't seem to be any that are specific to miniature painting so I could run some of those and a high percentage of people will buy equipment at the end of the course.

I think you'll find a high percentage of people will take your course and proceed to ordering equipment online. I'm not saying I would, but I've seen very similar things happen.

I think it's great you want to open a store, that is one of my dreams that I will hopefully accomplish one day. My main advice to you, as a businessman, is to be a pessimistic as possible about possible streams of revenue so that you aren't banking on too many things working out because oftentimes you'll find, especially in retail things hardly seem to go as planned. Good luck!

 frozenwastes wrote:

Wow. You really don't know what you're talking about. Commander MK2 sold out in preorder and there were waiting lists all around the world for the reprint. Then they were reprinted again. People were paying Walmart and Target employees to set aside the product for them and not stock it on the shelves. Now they've hit saturation and buying has drastically slowed down, but it was probably one of the most successful product launches ever for MTG.

Hey... I can't argue with that kind of logic... all those Jund and Naya boxes that remained unsold in Walmarts the 2 weeks following release must have been merely in my imagination. Of course... this is in Toronto, y'know... small market.

Start a game club. If folks belong to something they will come back and are likely to be more loyal to the shop it is based out of. Sweeten the pot by giving a discount to members and perhaps cutting their tourney fees.

How about beginers and refreshers nights for adult gamers only?

As far as I am aware many stores run beginers nights for children only. This can make older gamers who are looking to either get started or get back into the hobby uncomfortable.

I have often wondered how many of these older guys have been put off getting into/back into the game because they don't want to be lumped with the kids.

Ultimately if you can attract new older gamers they are the ones who will have a large enough disposable income to buy a new army and hobby supplies.

 keezus wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:

Wow. You really don't know what you're talking about. Commander MK2 sold out in preorder and there were waiting lists all around the world for the reprint. Then they were reprinted again. People were paying Walmart and Target employees to set aside the product for them and not stock it on the shelves. Now they've hit saturation and buying has drastically slowed down, but it was probably one of the most successful product launches ever for MTG.

Hey... I can't argue with that kind of logic... all those Jund and Naya boxes that remained unsold in Walmarts the 2 weeks following release must have been merely in my imagination. Of course... this is in Toronto, y'know... small market.

There were five products in the release, so it's natural that the least popular two would be the most likely to be seen on the shelves at any given moment. True Name Nemesis skewed the demand for one of the decks because of Legacy usage. There were waiting lists for almost all the decks at the largest online retailers. I contacted Face to Face, Card Kingdom, Star City Games, Channel Fireball and others about how likely they thought they'd be able to get more product in and they told me I could go on the waiting list with everyone else because they just didn't know and so far everything had sold out on preorder. The second printing didn't get my order fulfilled. It wasn't until the third printing happened that I actually got my Eternal Bargain deck. And apparently the second and third printing was larger than the first one.

I'm guessing that it simply didn't take off as a format in your personal meta (which events you go to, who you play with), so you've extrapolated that to the rest of the world. Probably even to the rest of your city. I'm guessing Toronto has a thriving EDH scene that you just don't know about or see in any regular way. You could be a really active MTG player and go to three events a week and never see an EDH game because when you go to a draft or a standard tournament, that's what's going on there.

For the purpose of this thread, I think my point stands. If you are going to sell MTG, bring in some of the side products. You never know when you'll sell out rapidly and you have enough potential online customers to clear stuff without taking too much of a loss (if any).

nanook wrote:
We worked out food and drink would be a big seller and money maker with a very good profit margin. Sales would need to come from other models and not GW. You don't get the best discount rate from GW until you have been a supplier of their stock for about 4 years. Plus you cannot cherry pick and have to buy up The Hobbit stock which is dead money. Plus you have to display it all as per instructions...

Do you still have to follow their directions if you're buying it indirectly from a distributor (if they still have them)?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 McManiak wrote:
Interesting Milkboy.....

What if rather than paying for each table there were strict (ish) time limits and a monthly membership which would alow some sort of priority in booking tables plus a 10% discount on all store purchases. I would be 10% cheaper than RRP on webstore and this would allow people the same discount in store whilst generating a loyalty to the physical store.

I'd only be inforcing strict time limits when it's busy; i.e. when there's a waiting list.

I'm not sure how memberships would work, but it might make sense to have a token table fee (£1/hour) and offer that as store credit, so if they buy something, the table is essentially free and if they don't you will still cover wear to table and they won't need to worry about freeloading.

I was also thinking of having a loyalty card where for every £250 or something like that you would receive 25% discount on your next purchase.

One I visited at the weekend has a loyalty card, you get a stamp for every £10 and after you get 10 stamps you get £10 credit. So essentially spend £100 get £10 off. You could investigate percentages but you might need an upper limit.

A few stores have a tiered discount system, so say you do 10% of RRP normally, going to 15% if you're spending £100, 25% at £200, might tempt people to buy up to the next band for more revenue. It also introduces a risk that they'll hold back on purchases until they can bulk order though.

?....FW do not do a trade discount so I would stock their items at full cost to me but customers would not be paying shipping so would buy from store and hopefully pick up other items at the same time....thoughts???

It's really not worth trying to have a constant stock of FW items, you'll get to deal with the QC issues and unless you're only ordering in £250 worth you'll be paying the 10% postage anyway, and you could be stuck with a lot of stuff that people don't want that you paid RRP for (so will probably take a loss if you decide to clear them out)

What might make more sense is to have a sort of FW club/pool, where take deposits and then place a large FW order when the order list hits the free postage mark. Then you're letting the customers save the postage costs and providing some value without being out of pocket.

Whatever you do, keep it simple. Don't do anything where the process or enforcing them becomes a burden or alienates your customers. Don't charge for tables would be my strong suggestion. You want people in the store and they will spend once there.

Rich is right on the money here. I used to be in a regular Friday night gaming group and typically spent anywhere from $50 to $200 each week. Sure, some of the group didn't buy much regularly, but if you alienate any of us, then you lose the group, and therefore the spenders like myself. (Or if the group decides to stay, I'll quietly take the majority of my purchases elsewhere and pay your pithy table tax).

Here are two reasonably good threads/debates on this. I'd suggest reading both in full.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/577829.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/564137.page

Also agree that it's not worth getting involved in Forge World stuff. It's a lot of effort for no profit. Use that time and energy on your tables and a drinks fridge.

I wouldn't even try and enforce a 2-drink minimum - thirsty gamers will buy drinks and snacks on the spot, and if they feel it's there for their convenience instead of browbeaten with "you must buy 2 drinks" then they'll be much more positive about it all.

TLR - you will always get some people who don't want to buy or pay anything. Don't look at them as individuals, but as part of their little gaming group. Chances are there's someone in most or all (non-kid) groups that buys enough crap to absolutely make it worthwhile to welcome their tightarse friends as well.

 frozenwastes wrote:
I'm guessing that it simply didn't take off as a format in your personal meta (which events you go to, who you play with), so you've extrapolated that to the rest of the world. Probably even to the rest of your city. I'm guessing Toronto has a thriving EDH scene that you just don't know about or see in any regular way. You could be a really active MTG player and go to three events a week and never see an EDH game because when you go to a draft or a standard tournament, that's what's going on there.

That's a pretty strong generalization there. EDH has a significant presence Toronto, and a huge presence at my local store. The reason why Commander MK2 didn't do as strongly in my neck of the woods is that there were fewer new cards printed and the decks in general contained less "value" than MK1. Heavy EDH players are the ones LEAST likely to buy this product as they would have most of the cards already, making it more worth their while to track down singletons of what they need. The Commander decks are IMHO designed entirely for players entering the format. The only ones moving as you said, were driven fully by True Name Nemisis, and those were being used in Legacy, not EDH. I don't disagree that you should stock every product that is out there. I don't agree that you should max out allotment as a rule of thumb however. There are certain types of product - i.e. intro packs and duel decks (with some exceptions) seem to have low shelf life (intro packs in particular) and poor turnover. Even event decks are very hit or miss. IMHO, to stock MTG intelligently requires that the store have an employee/owner who has their finger on the pulse of the meta.