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not every named character is some ultra powerful god of war. Haas has a name, but he's just a veteran sergeant, he shouldn't be able to survive unshaved from guns used to blow up entire cities.

Instant death is a terrible mechanic best used in an Epic style game versus one that has fiction centered around the larger than life, death-defying heroes of the 41st Millenium?

((Or that I long for the day to run Tyranid Warriors and not get them vaporized))

Eternal Warrior should be a rarity. Like psybolt ammunition...

Nah, I like 40k for its relative killyness, not the WHFB approach where everyone and his mother seems to have an armor save AND an invulnerable save on top. *shudders*

I really wouldn't want to see this.

EW should be only for the absolute toughest baddies, the ones that miraculously survive heavy ordnance being thrown at them and keep coming. Not all named characters are such. On top of that, it'd make the ID rule literally completely pointless against many armies.

I still get miffed that the oldest living Space Marine not yet interred in a dreadnaught is not an Eternal Warrior.

You'd think that's the epitome of the term.

Dumb rules are dumb.

 Tigramans wrote:

 Archon_Zarbyrn wrote:

Here the exact passage for Eternal Warrior: If a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound from an attack that inflicts Instant Death, it only reduces its Wounds by 1, instead of automatically reducing its Wounds to 0. Note it says only reduces its wounds by 1 not that it reduces the target's wound total to 1.

I stand corrected. Thanks mate.

No problem man happy to help.

TheKbob:

Living a long time does not mean you are immortal though, many much tougher and powerful characters such as Necron and Daemon ones don't have the rule despite literally being all but immortal. Think about it, the necron character are over 65 million years old, made up of some of the toughest material in the 40k universe and still can be instantly killed.

Well... "killed" in the sense that they are required to Phase Out to a resurrection ark and get their software reinstalled into a new body of their type (Warrior, Lord, whatever), and then schlep their happy ass back to where ever the battle is taking place. They're out of the fight as far as this battle is concerned, but they'll be back.

Necrodermis is tough, but it's not that tough.

 Archon_Zarbyrn wrote:

 Tigramans wrote:

 Archon_Zarbyrn wrote:

Here the exact passage for Eternal Warrior: If a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound from an attack that inflicts Instant Death, it only reduces its Wounds by 1, instead of automatically reducing its Wounds to 0. Note it says only reduces its wounds by 1 not that it reduces the target's wound total to 1.

I stand corrected. Thanks mate.

No problem man happy to help.

TheKbob:

Living a long time does not mean you are immortal though, many much tougher and powerful characters such as Necron and Daemon ones don't have the rule despite literally being all but immortal. Think about it, the necron character are over 65 million years old, made up of some of the toughest material in the 40k universe and still can be instantly killed.

Quite so, I agree, however this means someone who isn't immortal living that long means he's prime candidate for a moniker of Eternal Warrior. Most Eternal Warriors bearing that mantle are not immortal characters, either. The special rule, to me, doesn't identify units impossible to kill, but those with the large than life presence (read: plot armor) big enough to suggest they are here to fight. Remember, losing your last wound doesn't mean death in 40k, it just means incapacitated in some form. The Eternal Warrior special rule means that it takes a far mightier force to stop the character involved.

And Necrons have one better as they have resurrection capabilities. If their form is ever disabled, it's instantly teleported back to be repaired to the tomb world. Daemons are immortal, but their material bodies are made by a link from the warp to the material plane. These bodies and forms are not indestructible, though. I see the longer living races like Tolkein Elves. Immortal, yes, but they can still die if pumped full of arrows or the liberal application of sword to the forehead (Head - On, apply directly to the...).

This is me, paraphrasing myself from a different thread...
Eternal Warrior exists to balance CC Beatsticks. Without it, any model with a Power Fist will be bringing down 200+ point models like butter. The problem with expensive CC models is that they have to survive long enough to get into CC, and then be able to have an impact there. Without EW, Lysander will die about half the time he gets into a Challenge with an Ork Nob or Space Marine captain. S8 exists in spades for CC, and S10 is pretty common. Anyone not T6 essentially becomes a one wound model, which is utter crap for the price tag.

It's an issue of balance.

Waaaghpower wrote:
This is me, paraphrasing myself from a different thread...
Eternal Warrior exists to balance CC Beatsticks. Without it, any model with a Power Fist will be bringing down 200+ point models like butter. The problem with expensive CC models is that they have to survive long enough to get into CC, and then be able to have an impact there. Without EW, Lysander will die about half the time he gets into a Challenge with an Ork Nob or Space Marine captain. S8 exists in spades for CC, and S10 is pretty common. Anyone not T6 essentially becomes a one wound model, which is utter crap for the price tag.

It's an issue of balance.

Lysander has a 3+ invulnerable save and when you factor in how most power fist users have 2-3 attacks at most and only hitting half the time I think he would be quite survivable without EW. Compared to a Archon who can get a 2+ invulnerable save, but is always T3 he gets killed by a way more things like marines boosted by Hammerhand. Why do already tough characters like Lysander need EW when others like an Archon or Yriel get by just fine without it? EW just serves to add another unnecessary special rule that ignore basic game mechanics and invalidates many abilities and wargear just like ATSKNF does to morale.

 Archon_Zarbyrn wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
This is me, paraphrasing myself from a different thread...
Eternal Warrior exists to balance CC Beatsticks. Without it, any model with a Power Fist will be bringing down 200+ point models like butter. The problem with expensive CC models is that they have to survive long enough to get into CC, and then be able to have an impact there. Without EW, Lysander will die about half the time he gets into a Challenge with an Ork Nob or Space Marine captain. S8 exists in spades for CC, and S10 is pretty common. Anyone not T6 essentially becomes a one wound model, which is utter crap for the price tag.

It's an issue of balance.

Lysander has a 3+ invulnerable save and when you factor in how most power fist users have 2-3 attacks at most and only hitting half the time I think he would be quite survivable without EW. Compared to a Archon who can get a 2+ invulnerable save, but is always T3 he gets killed by a way more things like marines boosted by Hammerhand. Why do already tough characters like Lysander need EW when others like an Archon or Yriel get by just fine without it? EW just serves to add another unnecessary special rule that ignore basic game mechanics and invalidates many abilities and wargear just like ATSKNF does to morale.

Is an Archon with a 2++ 230 points? There's your answer.

Archon, I feel you're a little biased towards Archon. Something gives me that impression.
As for my math: An Ork Nob has 3 attacks. 1.5 hits, about 1.3 wounds, a tiny fraction under half a failed 3+. That's a dead Lysander half the time, as I said. SM captains get 1/3rd chances of killing him. Also an Archon with a 2+ Invuln only costs 90 points, not over 200.

I personally can go anyway. If they made it so that no one has EW then it won't affect me because I never really cared too much for it. If they do away ID that would change my meta though and if each IC had it then I think it would be more awesome than just having your character die to lucky melta. Feels kind of anti climatic when your HQ dies or stays in the back. I get that it happens. Heck it happened to Frederick the first. It would make it more viable to push your named characters to combat. Heck, I'm on vacation hundreds of miles from home but if someone would play a game or two with no ID and with ID but named characters with EW and let us know how it went that'd be swell.

Because passing out immunity to instant death is a terrible idea that doesn't need explanation, IMHO.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Archon_Zarbyrn wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
This is me, paraphrasing myself from a different thread...
Eternal Warrior exists to balance CC Beatsticks. Without it, any model with a Power Fist will be bringing down 200+ point models like butter. The problem with expensive CC models is that they have to survive long enough to get into CC, and then be able to have an impact there. Without EW, Lysander will die about half the time he gets into a Challenge with an Ork Nob or Space Marine captain. S8 exists in spades for CC, and S10 is pretty common. Anyone not T6 essentially becomes a one wound model, which is utter crap for the price tag.

It's an issue of balance.

Lysander has a 3+ invulnerable save and when you factor in how most power fist users have 2-3 attacks at most and only hitting half the time I think he would be quite survivable without EW. Compared to a Archon who can get a 2+ invulnerable save, but is always T3 he gets killed by a way more things like marines boosted by Hammerhand. Why do already tough characters like Lysander need EW when others like an Archon or Yriel get by just fine without it? EW just serves to add another unnecessary special rule that ignore basic game mechanics and invalidates many abilities and wargear just like ATSKNF does to morale.

Is an Archon with a 2++ 230 points? There's your answer.

There is an Archon who cost close to that, Vect he cost 240 points yet he does not have EW. Also while a standard Archon will not cost 230 points he can easily cost up to 150+ points and is still T3.

Waaaghpower:
An Archon who took just a shadow field does cost 90 points, but he ain't doing crap since he will be stuck at str 3 with no way to ignore armor. Taking IMO the best weapon for him the Huskblade is 35 points for a str 3 AP2 power weapon with Instant Death. One of the issues I have with EW is that it makes any already dangerous character have essentially nothing to fear when attacking a squad. A power fist can indeed kill a SM captain, however the Captain can force a challenge to either single out the wielder or force him to not attack for the round. I don't mind my archon being easily killed, he suppose to be a glass cannon after all, I do have a issue with already very tough characters basically having nothing to fear due to EW.

AP 2 Instant death, whoa, strikes at initiative or not?

 Bobthehero wrote:
AP 2 Instant death, whoa, strikes at initiative or not?

Yep strikes at initiative and the archon has an awesome initiative value of 7 along with weapon skill 7 and 5 attacks base when you factor in the bonus attack for having a pistol and close-combat weapon.

Woah woah woah...
You're saying that a 125 Point Character with low S and T due to being a fragile alien in a codex of well-equipped elite fragile people has a different role than a 230 point character from a race of genetically designed supersoldiers with inferior gear?

You're comparing Apples and Squig Brew here, Archon. Dark Eldar play differently than Space Marines, and Archons have completely different roles and uses than Chapter Masters.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Woah woah woah...
You're saying that a 125 Point Character with low S and T due to being a fragile alien in a codex of well-equipped elite fragile people has a different role than a 230 point character from a race of genetically designed supersoldiers with inferior gear?

You're comparing Apples and Squig Brew here, Archon. Dark Eldar play differently than Space Marines, and Archons have completely different roles and uses than Chapter Masters.

Wait how does Lysander have inferior gear? He wears terminator armor, has a storm shield and a strength 10 thunder hammer. This means he can easily destroy most other HQ choices in a single hit before you add in the fact he has EW to protect him. Also both Archons and Chapter Masters excel in a certain field: in close combat though both have their differences a course. Mostly DE rely on killing the target before they strike back while the chapter master can afford to strike at the same time or even last due to how tough he is.The closet equivalent to Lysander in the DE codex would be either Drazhar or Vect. Drazhar has EW but only a 2 armor save and no invulnerable save, while Vect cost 240 points and has 4+ armor save and shadow field.

 TheKbob wrote:
I still get miffed that the oldest living Space Marine not yet interred in a dreadnaught is not an Eternal Warrior.

You'd think that's the epitome of the term.

Dumb rules are dumb.

You mean the guy who is younger then many of the CSM SC's and who isn't blessed by a literal god?

One of which should be able to possess people when he dies as well.

I was comparing the armies. Space Marines have the best gear available to the Imperium, but their tech just isn't anywhere near as advanced.

And once again, two different roles. Archons exist to pick off slow-moving targets before blows can be struck. They're cheaper, lighter, faster, and can still weather powerful hits until their dice crap out.
Chapter Masters are freight trains, not scalpels. They hit last, and hit hard, but first they're always going to be weathering a ton of damage.

Not to mention, a slow-hitting freight train would stick out like a sore thumb in a DE army, and a fragile speedster would do the same in an Imperial Fists army.

Maybe Vect is overcosted. I don't know his abilities and I don't own the codex to look. But you can't compare two different units with two different roles, playstyles, and armies, and expect them to be the same.

I see nothing inherently wrong with it. Some adjustments may need to be made, but the way I see it, named players have significance to the lore and Eternal Warrior or something along those lines for all of them adds more depth and meaning to them for me.

I could be way off base though.

They need less EW, not more. I read a guy in the IG codex has EW because he has bionics, as if he's the only guy in the galaxy to have robo-limbs.

MarsNZ wrote:
They need less EW, not more. I read a guy in the IG codex has EW because he has bionics, as if he's the only guy in the galaxy to have robo-limbs.

Well maybe EW is a little much, but they could have something along those lines. Named units in any game have meaning to the game, otherwise everyone would be named or nobody would be named.

Should they all have the same buff, definitely not, but they should get something fitting their station and their position in the lore.

MarsNZ wrote:
They need less EW, not more. I read a guy in the IG codex has EW because he has bionics, as if he's the only guy in the galaxy to have robo-limbs.

As far as I'm aware, the only IG character with EW is Yarrick... Who totally, completely deserves it.

MarsNZ wrote:
They need less EW, not more. I read a guy in the IG codex has EW because he has bionics, as if he's the only guy in the galaxy to have robo-limbs.

Yarrick who does deserve it. In fluff, he bests a Warboss hand to hand yanking off the ork's klaw and taking it as his own only collapsing after it. The dude's known for just getting back up after being smacked down. There's a reason why the biggest baddest ork loves this human above all else. He's flippin Yarrick!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
I still get miffed that the oldest living Space Marine not yet interred in a dreadnaught is not an Eternal Warrior.

You'd think that's the epitome of the term.

Dumb rules are dumb.

You mean the guy who is younger then many of the CSM SC's and who isn't blessed by a literal god?

One of which should be able to possess people when he dies as well.

To be fair isn't Lucius supposed to take a while before he goes all bodysnatching?

Yeah, but he is a badass so he gets to do it faster

 Lobomalo wrote:
Yeah, but he is a badass so he gets to do it faster

Eh, it's a bit murky with Lucius to be fair. They edited the fluff so that he gets murdered by some low ranking emotionless SM who didn't feel pride. What happens? He just gets revived by mister fix-it Slaanesh Marine. Even if he isn't put back together, Slaanesh would probably revive him really and that's if you don't feel pride. Then again it would be very grimdark and fitting if it was quicker. A one time rule where if you killed him, you would have to take a ld test 2d6. It's not perfect but it would be kind of amusing frankly.

True, but he is still cool imo. Though at times I wish he died for reals.