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 Grey Templar wrote:
Those other countries NEVER had withspread weaponry owned by the population. Thus you can't say their strict gun laws and low numbers of guns are the cause of their low murder rate. You don't have a period of them having a bunch of weapons to compare.

Except for Switzerland.

 sebster wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

U.S. murder rate is about 5, French murder rate is about 1. I guess easysauce was right, I am living in a magical dream world of carebears after all . Do not be bitter about it, easysauce, you can migrate here too!

 sebster wrote:
The 500% thing is something the NRA does a lot. Pick some really bizarrely small crime that had a one off spike and make it out like it's somehow equal to the 8 or 9 thousand gun murders you can expect each year in the US. I remember after the gun laws were passed here in Australia this stat started getting passed around that stabbings in one area of Australia spiked by 500%... because they picked a really small part of Australia that was fairly crime free - stabbings went from like 2 to 10 and therefore 500% spike. Never mind that stabbings across the country declined, and that in that specific area the year after was like 1, and then 0 after that... they had their stat to spam and send out to all the true believers.

From your link, Montserrat and Saint Pierre and Miquelon have murder rates of respectively 20 and 16,5. Both have a total of 1 murder, though. So, had another year been taken in consideration, they might have lowered to a murder rate of 0, like Monaco or the Lichtenstein. Totally relevant statistic, though .

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
And most of these murders are committed with.... illegally held weapons.

I am pretty sure having tons of legal weapons around makes getting an illegal one easier.


Anyhow, we need to fix the gun control question the same way GW fixes problem: with the nerf bat.
Just nerf gun control.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I am pretty sure having tons of legal weapons around makes getting an illegal one easier.

So because there is the minuscule chance that someone might steal someone's lawfully held property we should just prevent that person owning it to begin with. So instead of punishing the criminal we punish the lawful. That seems somewhat counter intuitive.

Maybe we should put a little bit of effort into our border. The one that guns, drugs, and gang members cross with ease. That might be a better way to reduce gun violence.

Oh, and cute video. But it starts out wrong. If you turn your firearm on people who do not pose a threat of imminent harm to you then you don't have a right to hold that firearm. But nice try.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I am pretty sure having tons of legal weapons around makes getting an illegal one easier.

So because there is the minuscule chance that someone might steal someone's lawfully held property we should just prevent that person owning it to begin with. So instead of punishing the criminal we punish the lawful. That seems somewhat counter intuitive.

Let's just pretend private sales don't happen, right?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I am pretty sure having tons of legal weapons around makes getting an illegal one easier.

So because there is the minuscule chance that someone might steal someone's lawfully held property we should just prevent that person owning it to begin with. So instead of punishing the criminal we punish the lawful. That seems somewhat counter intuitive.

Let's just pretend private sales don't happen, right?

And selling firearms to felons is, surprise surprise, illegal.

You can't stop it, and trampling on law abiding citizens rights in a vain attempt to do so is wrong.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I am pretty sure having tons of legal weapons around makes getting an illegal one easier.

So because there is the minuscule chance that someone might steal someone's lawfully held property we should just prevent that person owning it to begin with. So instead of punishing the criminal we punish the lawful. That seems somewhat counter intuitive.

Let's just pretend private sales don't happen, right?

And selling firearms to felons is, surprise surprise, illegal.

You can't stop it, and trampling on law abiding citizens rights in a vain attempt to do so is wrong.

Whoa. I just did a Private Sell deal. Though I am not a felon. But what if the guy I brought the old school 22 and double barrel shotgun was a felon.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
So because there is the minuscule chance that someone might steal someone's lawfully held property we should just prevent that person owning it to begin with. So instead of punishing the criminal we punish the lawful. That seems somewhat counter intuitive.

I do not know, apparently there is a problem with illegal guns. Where does all those illegal guns come from? Certainly they came from factories, they are not local thug handicraft. Do they all come from abroad, with no link whatsoever with the huge number of legal guns all over the country?

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Oh, and cute video. But it starts out wrong. If you turn your firearm on people who do not pose a threat of imminent harm to you then you don't have a right to hold that firearm. But nice try.

It is CollegeHumor. It is not supposed to be a political statement. It is supposed to be funny.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
It is CollegeHumor. It is not supposed to be a political statement. It is supposed to be funny.

Never bring funny to a political discussion.

 Easy E wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
It is CollegeHumor. It is not supposed to be a political statement. It is supposed to be funny.

Never bring funny to a political discussion.

It's right up there with "never get involved in a land war in Asia".

 Ouze wrote:

 Easy E wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
It is CollegeHumor. It is not supposed to be a political statement. It is supposed to be funny.

Never bring funny to a political discussion.

It's right up there with "never get involved in a land war in Asia".

And going against a Sicilian with death on the line

Never bring facts to a political discussion.

If its a Sicilian bringing facts to a political discussion? Involving wine.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I do not know, apparently there is a problem with illegal guns. Where does all those illegal guns come from? Certainly they came from factories, they are not local thug handicraft. Do they all come from abroad, with no link whatsoever with the huge number of legal guns all over the country?

You are talking about illegally held guns rather than illegal guns i.e. that the person is disqualified from possessing the firearm rather than the firearm not being permitted for it's (often cosmetic) features. The ATF reckons that 10-15% of guns used in crime are stolen. The reason that figure is low is because most criminals don't want to wait on finding a home that has guns, casing it, then robbing it (assuming that they have the time, knowledge, and skills to deal with security features like alarms or a gun safe). The most common ways for a criminal to get a gun are from a gun store owner not following the law, an unlicensed vendor, or a straw purchaser (i.e. someone knowingly buying a firearm for someone else). All of these common methods are, you may be shocked to learn, illegal with heavy penalties.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
It is CollegeHumor. It is not supposed to be a political statement. It is supposed to be funny.

So you were just spamming the discussion and not making a point?

 Easy E wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
It is CollegeHumor. It is not supposed to be a political statement. It is supposed to be funny.

Never bring funny to a political discussion.

Never bring political to a funny discussion!

Never bring a firearms discussion to Dakka OT.

Because whether you bring it or not; one will appear anyway!

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
The most common ways for a criminal to get a gun are from a gun store owner not following the law, an unlicensed vendor, or a straw purchaser (i.e. someone knowingly buying a firearm for someone else).

Okay. So, is finding a gun store owner that does not follow the law harder when there are millions of gun stores because gun stores are lucrative since everyone can and wants to own a gun, or when there are a few dozen gun stores because basically nobody buying? I am not really sure.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
All of these common methods are, you may be shocked to learn, illegal with heavy penalties.

No kidding. That is shocking to learn when talking about how people get illegal guns .
For some reason, things that are illegal and very hard to do tend to be done less than things that are illegal and easy to do. But really, I advise you to leave your house open when you go on vacation. I mean, stealing is illegal, so people will not steal from you, certainly.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
So you were just spamming the discussion and not making a point?

I was posting funny video that should have brought a smile to your face and joy in your heart, and the heart of other members watching. I cannot see any greater purpose than that, man . Certainly not “make a point” in a debate on gun control. Gun control should be nerfed anyway. Nerf gun control.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
The most common ways for a criminal to get a gun are from a gun store owner not following the law, an unlicensed vendor, or a straw purchaser (i.e. someone knowingly buying a firearm for someone else).

Okay. So, is finding a gun store owner that does not follow the law harder when there are millions of gun stores because gun stores are lucrative since everyone can and wants to own a gun, or when there are a few dozen gun stores because basically nobody buying? I am not really sure.

The only way to be sure would to go to this mythical land with 'millions of gun stores'.

There are more than 129,817 federally licensed firearms dealers in the United States, according to the latest Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives numbers (as of Aug. 1) . Of those, 51,438 are retail gun stores, 7,356 are pawn shops and 61,562 are collectors, with the balance of the licenses belonging mostly to manufacturers and importers of firearms and destructive devices.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/08/guns-in-america-a-statistical-look/

And finding a licensed dealer willing to break the law is not an easy task.

 CptJake wrote:
The only way to be sure would to go to this mythical land with 'millions of gun stores'.

So, you are going to argue about number when really, it was just about explaining how more legal guns make it easier to get an illegal one?
As for licensed dealer willing to break the law, and if those have a meaningful impact on the number of illegal gun, I will let you and Dreadclaw69 debate it out. Let me know the result.

Yes, when your hyperbolic numbers are orders of magnitude off in an attempt to make a point, the factual numbers do indeed make a difference and are worth pointing out.

Your argument fall apart completely when you look at places within the US where legal gun ownership is low and difficult yet gun (and other) violence is high. I'll leave the research to you. Look up number of gun shops in DC and in Chicago.

Now, you're likely to attempt to counter with more hyperbole and by bringing up 'well there are legal gun shops near those places which criminals can get gunz!'. But again, leaving the research to you, look up where criminals get the guns used in their crimes actually come from (they do not purchase them from gun shops for the vast majority).

 CptJake wrote:
Yes, when your hyperbolic numbers are orders of magnitude off in an attempt to make a point, the factual numbers do indeed make a difference and are worth pointing out.

But those numbers where not supposed to be accurate. Just remove them and replace it with more gun shops and less gun shops.

 CptJake wrote:
look up where criminals get the guns used in their crimes actually come from (they do not purchase them from gun shops for the vast majority).

Where do you think they get those from? I mean, not just the last step. Go all the way through the whole chain, up to the factory.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
Yes, when your hyperbolic numbers are orders of magnitude off in an attempt to make a point, the factual numbers do indeed make a difference and are worth pointing out.

But those numbers where not supposed to be accurate. Just remove them and replace it with more gun shops and less gun shops.

 CptJake wrote:
look up where criminals get the guns used in their crimes actually come from (they do not purchase them from gun shops for the vast majority).

Where do you think they get those from? I mean, not just the last step. Go all the way through the whole chain, up to the factory.

Moving field goals are we. Legal and/or illegal the weapon do in fact comes from factories.

Edit

Replace
"Moving field goals"
with
Fortune Cookie "Fortune" type of answer

But where do the factories come from? That's where the real monsters lay!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Okay. So, is finding a gun store owner that does not follow the law harder when there are millions of gun stores because gun stores are lucrative since everyone can and wants to own a gun, or when there are a few dozen gun stores because basically nobody buying? I am not really sure.

This might be news to you but the overwhelming majority of gun stores are legitimate. Most people do not want to run the risk of Federal prison time, a criminal record, loss of their business, and their family for what is essentially little reward. So yes, finding a gun store willing to break the law is very difficult.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
No kidding. That is shocking to learn when talking about how people get illegal guns .
For some reason, things that are illegal and very hard to do tend to be done less than things that are illegal and easy to do. But really, I advise you to leave your house open when you go on vacation. I mean, stealing is illegal, so people will not steal from you, certainly.

I'm sure that somewhere buried in here there is a point that you are trying to make.

 whembly wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
On the plus side, we got a new slogan out of it.

Oh I can't even exalt this hard enough!

It's pretty amazing.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Where do you think they get those from? I mean, not just the last step. Go all the way through the whole chain, up to the factory.

What about Northern Ireland? Very strict gun control. No gun stores. No gun factories. Yet criminals have had access to guns for decades. Here's a clue - stop trying to blame the actions of people on inanimate objects.

Only takes 9lbs trigger squeeze, no modifiers, to operate a fire arm

 Jihadin wrote:
Legal and/or illegal the weapon do in fact comes from factories.

Yeah. And do illegal weapon come from illegal factory, or do they at one point change from legal weapons to illegal weapons ?

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
What about Northern Ireland? Very strict gun control. No gun stores. No gun factories. Yet criminals have had access to guns for decades.

Yeah, what about it?
I could not find the murder rate in Northern Ireland on the wikipedia page, but for the record, Ireland has 1,2, and the UK have 1. The U.S. have 4.8. Maybe we could look at how many illegal guns per capita there are in both countries, if you have the figures. If there are more in the U.S., that would be pretty telling, given the massive political troubles that Ireland went through in recent history, no ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
I'm sure that somewhere buried in here there is a point that you are trying to make.

Yeah, I will spell it out for you. Having many legals guns available in your country makes it easier for people that want an illegal one to get one. Even though it is illegal by definition to get an illegal gun, duh! So your argument that crimes are committed with illegal guns and therefore the legal guns are not playing any part in the problem is wrong.

What you're completely failing to comprehend is none of your offered solutions decrease the number of illegally held weapons. Instead, as has been pointed out to you multiple times, you would make it harder for good folks to get weapons legally. Now add in their right to own weapons and defend themselves and even you should be able to recognize why solutions which make that harder and do not decrease illegal weapons (and likely would not decrease violence at all though trends of how the violence is committed would shift) are solutions worthy of derision and are not taken seriously.

Again, the issue is not nor has it ever been Gunz!

Yeah. And do illegal weapon come from illegal factory, or do they at one point change from legal weapons to illegal weapons ?

Is the owner a felon? Is the owner a law abiding citizen? Is the weapon stolen? "Buddy" purchase? Work with me here.
I own weapons but am I a felon or a law abiding citizen eh
I've bought from dealers and private sells.
I

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Yeah, what about it?
I could not find the murder rate in Northern Ireland on the wikipedia page, but for the record, Ireland has 1,2, and the UK have 1. The U.S. have 4.8. Maybe we could look at how many illegal guns per capita there are in both countries, if you have the figures. If there are more in the U.S., that would be pretty telling, given the massive political troubles that Ireland went through in recent history, no ?

It is almost as if you are putting significant effort into missing the point. So is that the murder rate for the US including all deaths, or only firearm related murders? (excluding justifiable homicides)

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Yeah, I will spell it out for you. Having many legals guns available in your country makes it easier for people that want an illegal one to get one. Even though it is illegal by definition to get an illegal gun, duh! So your argument that crimes are committed with illegal guns and therefore the legal guns are not playing any part in the problem is wrong.

You seem to keep going back to blaming an inanimate object for the actions of people. We have millions of guns held in the United States. The overwhelming majority of them are held lawfully, and by responsible owners. Those are legally held firearms. They are not part of the problem. The problem is a minority of people who sell guns illegally, or smuggle them into the country, and these guns are then used to commit crime.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CptJake wrote:
What you're completely failing to comprehend is none of your offered solutions decrease the number of illegally held weapons. Instead, as has been pointed out to you multiple times, you would make it harder for good folks to get weapons legally. Now add in their right to own weapons and defend themselves and even you should be able to recognize why solutions which make that harder and do not decrease illegal weapons (and likely would not decrease violence at all though trends of how the violence is committed would shift) are solutions worthy of derision and are not taken seriously.

Again, the issue is not nor has it ever been Gunz!

This always seems to be what most anti-gun/pro control stances boil down to. The ridiculous belief that by punishing the law abiding citizen we'll have an impact on criminals.

 CptJake wrote:
What you're completely failing to comprehend is none of your offered solutions decrease the number of illegally held weapons.

What offered solutions?

 CptJake wrote:
Instead, as has been pointed out to you multiple times, you would make it harder for good folks to get weapons legally.

See, the problem is that it seems pretty clear a lot of people here do not want to be safe. What they really want is to have weapons. They always insist on whether or not they will have weapons, and never insist on whether or not they would be safe.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
So is that the murder rate for the US including all deaths, or only firearm related murders? (excluding justifiable homicides)

All death. If you do have more accurate figures, people provide them. As I already told you to .

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
You seem to keep going back to blaming an inanimate object for the actions of people.

Uh?
I am saying having many, many legal guns in the market makes it easier to get an illegal one. Do you agree with that, or not?

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
We have millions of guns held in the United States. The overwhelming majority of them are held lawfully, and by responsible owners. Those are legally held firearms. They are not part of the problem. The problem is a minority of people who sell guns illegally, or smuggle them into the country, and these guns are then used to commit crime.

So, do you have more illegal guns that countries with stricter gun control laws and no gun culture? And if the answer is yes, is there a link?
I think the answer to both those questions is yes.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
This always seems to be what most anti-gun/pro control stances boil down to. The ridiculous belief that by punishing the law abiding citizen we'll have an impact on criminals.

A perfect example of what I meant when I said you do not care about being safe but about having guns. You see gun control as a punishment, because you will not have a gun anymore. If you would care about your actual safety, you would maybe see it as a flawed policy that would not work, but certainly not as a punishment. Because having guns would be a mean, not an end.