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I need a place to vent about the changes to Orks (and I feel others do as well).

I walked away from Orks in 6th, because that edition was not kind to them. I've played a few games of 6.5, and had high hopes our book would have been brought up to the current power level in the game. Unfortunately, whomever the design team was for this book, they dropped the ball on how this army plays.

I can't help but feel that as a CC army, I'm actually afaird to get my units into CC. The Shooty elements that were given don't do enought to make up for our holes. The point reductions don't seem to be enough, especially when partnered the point increases in other areas, and rule nerfs.

I've gone through a lot of edition/codex/army book changes, but this by far the worst army design I've ever seen.

Ok, I feel better now.

** I understand the book isn't out yet. However the leaked book info is enough to give any veteran Ork player the fell of the new book.

Hmmm. I thought 6th edition was very kind to Orks as long as you didn't pump a lot of points into vehicles. But I guess everyone views things differently.

You couldn't have picked one of the other bitch threads? Was a new thread necessary.


You don't even have the Codex yet. Chill out, there will be some good builds that come out of the Codex, that is apparent already.
If you were afraid of getting Boyz in CC, maybe Orks is the wrong army.


Please stop your bitching, don't waste space with this thread, wait for the codex, and play it and adapt with the times. It's not on par with Eldar, but it certainly going to be around middle of the pack.

Please stop wasting time and space when there are many Ork bitch threads all over the place already.

I feel like, from what rumors I've heard, we got far better at assault. Free Stikkbombs, free Mini-Fleet every turn, (Reroll 1D6 instead of as many dice as needed,) and our WAAAGH lets us run and charge against. Orks now have a 30" threat range for Assault, and an average ability to charge anyone 18" away very consistently.

 Zagman wrote:
You couldn't have picked one of the other bitch threads? Was a new thread necessary.


You don't even have the Codex yet. Chill out, there will be some good builds that come out of the Codex, that is apparent already.
If you were afraid of getting Boyz in CC, maybe Orks is the wrong army.


Please stop your bitching, don't waste space with this thread, wait for the codex, and play it and adapt with the times. It's not on par with Eldar, but it certainly going to be around middle of the pack.

Please stop wasting time and space when there are many Ork bitch threads all over the place already.

Pretty sure you're not a mod so how about you let the poster post what he wants without attacking him for doing so. He's not breaking any rules and if he was, the mods need to reprimand him, not you.

 Frankenberry wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
You couldn't have picked one of the other bitch threads? Was a new thread necessary.


You don't even have the Codex yet. Chill out, there will be some good builds that come out of the Codex, that is apparent already.
If you were afraid of getting Boyz in CC, maybe Orks is the wrong army.


Please stop your bitching, don't waste space with this thread, wait for the codex, and play it and adapt with the times. It's not on par with Eldar, but it certainly going to be around middle of the pack.

Please stop wasting time and space when there are many Ork bitch threads all over the place already.

Pretty sure you're not a mod so how about you let the poster post what he wants without attacking him for doing so. He's not breaking any rules and if he was, the mods need to reprimand him, not you.

So you are defending his right to post a pointless thread like this when the forum is littered with threads where a post like his would fit in with the hundreds of others. It's redundant and that is against Forum rules.

I'm defending his right to post what he wants in the manner he has, as it has broken no rules.

You're no one special here, you have no administrative privileges nor are you in any way morally superior. Perhaps rather than 'wasting time' you should post in other threads that could benefit from your input.

Also, since we're discussing rules, maybe you should just press the 'yellow triangle of friendship' if this thread is so offensive.

There are no other Ork "bitch" threads.

if you don't like this thread, go elsewhere.

mrfantastical wrote:
There are no other Ork "bitch" threads.

if you don't like this thread, go elsewhere.

Ahh, but I have the right to post, just ask Frankenberry.


I was referring to the "What did people actually want from the Ork Codex?" Thread located to below this one.
And "Orks in 7th edition" located on the first page in tactics.
And "Ork Rumors" located at the top of News and rumors.

All, except tactics, would have been appropriate. As the codex has not been released, and you yourself do not have access to it, Ork Rumors would have been most appropriate. Especially as there are dozens and dozens of posts just like it with enough consideration not to start a new thread. And since you are familiar with those rumors, I'm guessing you were there and still opted to create a new thread. I'd strongly suggest you wait until you actually have the codex, or move it to Rumors.

I will no longer be posting here as this thread is merely wasting space and doesn't need to be bumped any further.

^^^^^ thank you

So would you rather have the Tyranid codex? It sucks it seems you got the Nid treatment, but just wait for the codex to come out.

One thing I hated about people dissing the Nid codex is they haven't even tried it out. For the crap GW gets for not playtesting, you are doing the same.

So if you can't even play test first before complaining, then GW is doing EVERYTHING correctly when they don't play test properly.

After all if everyone else can Mathhammer, so can GW when it releases it books and not play test. What I am saying is, don't blame GW for poor balance when people can't playtest as well.

STOP!
Please remember Dakka Rule 1 - Be polite.
Move on and be well...


Waaagh_Gonads
Dakka Moderator

Davor wrote:
So would you rather have the Tyranid codex? It sucks it seems you got the Nid treatment, but just wait for the codex to come out.

One thing I hated about people dissing the Nid codex is they haven't even tried it out. For the crap GW gets for not playtesting, you are doing the same.

So if you can't even play test first before complaining, then GW is doing EVERYTHING correctly when they don't play test properly.

After all if everyone else can Mathhammer, so can GW when it releases it books and not play test. What I am saying is, don't blame GW for poor balance when people can't playtest as well.

Wait, what? You're saying people need to play test before complaining and then use Tyranids as an example... except many of the Tyranid complaints were valid. Most the Tyranid complaints I read back then centered on a severe lack of internal balance. Most Tyranid complaints I read now still focus on a severe lack of internal balance. There were also complaints that the power level of the Codex was low, which is valid depending on which other armies you use as measuring sticks.

Personally, I like to see how the complaints and compliments evolve from pre-release rumours through the first few months of a codex. You might lambaste players for not playtesting, but the fact is we HAVE been play testing the previous edition for 2 years, and people have been playtesting the old Ork codex across 6 and a half years and 2 editions, so while it might not be ideal, we can typically make educated guesses at what changes in the Codex will what affect the table.

Hey, I play both and only CSM and Orks....

I feel your pain....

Coincidentally the first 6th edition codex, and the first 7th edition codex.

right then, let's quell some of the complaints...

what we know is that orks can unleash massed firepower from basically any unit in their army. we also have the big gunz which are ludicrously cheap unless you're talking money, in which case I'll introduce you to plasticard. orks can move, run and assault in the same turn, and can re-roll a charge dice. so lets summarise how we deal with the problem of being "afraid to get into combat":

1: Ork up. no point having models with 2 attacks base if you don't use it. Get in there and show 'em what-for!
2: Pick your targets. sending a lone unit of trukkas at a tau firing line is suicide from the off. overwatch sounds scary but it isn't, there's never enough shots to cause serious damage.
3: Get their heads down. a unit of big guns with kustom mega-kannons can load enough wounds onto a unit that they'll be going to ground just to survive. bada-bing bada-boom, the overwatch is gone. charge in safety.

the important thing to remember is we's da orks. we'll make it work, and if slugga boys and trukks are just as cheap, and powerklaw nobs are cheaper, I say we've gotten better.

Just how many games does the OP have in with the new codex? I wasn't sure I'm just asking...

I think my biggest disappointment with this codex, and I've said this in the N&R thread, is that they just dropped the ball with Waaagh in the worst way.

When the Jets were introduced, we got the Waaagh Plane rule. The first indication that Waaagh affects different ork units in different ways. I understand that Run was useless to a Flyer, but it's the concept that they should have run with. Why do my Lootas or my Flash Gitz charge into combat when their love is Dakka? Why not then let Waaagh give some benefit to Dakka units? You had the precedent for it. It would also give you a way to differentiate Slugga and Shoota boyz without having to change costs needlessly.

Instead they took the easy, lazy route. Nerfed Waaagh Plane, kept Waaagh the same so my shooty units don't really get anything from it, and called it a day. GW's new methodology in a nutshell I guess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lobbywatson wrote:
Just how many games does the OP have in with the new codex? I wasn't sure I'm just asking...

Allow me to give you an extreme example: If I told you your main troop units suddenly increased in cost by 10 points a model, lost their armor save, but gained Adamantium Will. Would you need to test that? If I removed all saves, armor and invulnerable from your codex, would you need to play 10 games before realizing that your codex was just nerfed?

Believe it or not, I don't have to throw a bunch of dice to be able to look at something and say "that's not a good value", or "Pyrovores still suck". Reading comprehension is a thing that actually exists, and makes people able to understand the mechanics of something. I know that sounds crazy, but it's true.

Yeah that sounds kind of crappy. So they didn't add anything else to the codex or make any other changes for the last 4 weeks in WD? Probably no chance you could play a different combo and have any good games? I'm just saying don't jump off a bridge yet. You never know. We have seen SOME of the codex not all. Remember the big leak here the guy claimed to be half loaded when he was reading it.

 lobbywatson wrote:

Yeah that sounds kind of crappy. So they didn't add anything else to the codex or make any other changes for the last 4 weeks in WD? Probably no chance you could play a different combo and have any good games? I'm just saying don't jump off a bridge yet. You never know. We have seen SOME of the codex not all. Remember the big leak here the guy claimed to be half loaded when he was reading it.

People who tell us to "stop bitching" tend to cling to this ridiculous idea that all the complaining is about power level and won't believe anyone who says otherwise. But I'll repeat my usual line, hoping against hope that at least one person will be rational enough to understand it.

Yeah, nobody has played any games with the book yet. It's true that some hidden gem power list might be discovered after playtesting. But one power build does not make it a good codex. A good codex allows you to take whatever you like and have a chance. Don't tell me I don't have a right to complain about units A through X being bad just because Y and Z are good.

 lobbywatson wrote:

Yeah that sounds kind of crappy. So they didn't add anything else to the codex or make any other changes for the last 4 weeks in WD? Probably no chance you could play a different combo and have any good games? I'm just saying don't jump off a bridge yet. You never know. We have seen SOME of the codex not all. Remember the big leak here the guy claimed to be half loaded when he was reading it.

Mel has had a copy of the codex for about a week now, so I think we're done on surprise changes. We pretty much know what the codex is.

I should be clear my examples were extreme and not actually what happened to Orks (except removing invulnerable saves, that one happened for the most part). I also have a Warboss Edition on its way, so no bridge jumping either.

I play a bunch of armies, in fact, the last 4 (maybe 5?) releases have all been armies I play. Orks, Guard, Tyranids, Space Marines, Sisters. Ignoring Sisters (which sadly, they're used to ), there's a trend with these 4. I was quite happy with Space Marines. No major overhauls, but the Chapter Tactics system was nice, nothing got completely borked, and the new stuff was interesting and exciting. Then Tyranids got mangled. Then Guard, and sure they lost a bunch of special characters (RIP Marbo RIP Bastonne ), but the overall codex remained pretty solid and on-par. Now Orks. They could have done something with Orks. Given them something. You'd think with a 3 edition old codex, they would have seized the opportunity to do something exciting. Maybe throw Klan rules back in ala the Chapter Tactics of Space Marines; nope, nothing. Maybe put Minderz back in for Weirdboyz and make them a proper unit choice; nope, Weirdboyz still have 0 options beyond upping their ML. We got the Tyranid treatment: seemingly arbitrary changes in points (and sometimes FOC slots), nerfs in places we were strong (but hey, when the strong get nerfed internal balance is achieved!), and giving us back a few things that were taken away (sup Waaagh). Then they call it a day.

They could have made the Orks codex great. They could have done something.

But they didn't.

 streamdragon wrote:

 lobbywatson wrote:
Just how many games does the OP have in with the new codex? I wasn't sure I'm just asking...

Allow me to give you an extreme example: If I told you your main troop units suddenly increased in cost by 10 points a model, lost their armor save, but gained Adamantium Will. Would you need to test that? If I removed all saves, armor and invulnerable from your codex, would you need to play 10 games before realizing that your codex was just nerfed?

Believe it or not, I don't have to throw a bunch of dice to be able to look at something and say "that's not a good value", or "Pyrovores still suck". Reading comprehension is a thing that actually exists, and makes people able to understand the mechanics of something. I know that sounds crazy, but it's true.

Or in this case our main troops did not increase by 10 pts but dropped by 1.

Everything and it's dog was denying Ork saves, play tau and you don't get a single save all game. So does it really matter that half the saves are gone? Now you're not wasting points on something that will be denied. And gone is the limit on 'Ard Boys. So armour your army if you want!

And Ork invulnerables were never great. Their loss will bearly be noticed. For shooting we now have a 5++ invulnerble from the KFF if needed. Combat is the same as before, either they kill the Warboss or he kills them.

Getting more Ork bodies into combat is way more important than the terrible saves we used to have available. And THAT is an improvment that is all over the codex. Run and Charge has been mentioned already. Re-rolls. +2" charge range out of a vehicle (and vehicles themselves are tougher in this edition).

The book has had an overhaul. There's too many people focusing on the negative changes and comparing them to the old Codex.
Fresh thinking is needed here, get out of the old ways they don't work anymore.

"The Tyranid Treatment" - That's were the internet cried for months, then they actually played a few games and found they're actually pretty solid (but continue to cry).

 streamdragon wrote:


Believe it or not, I don't have to throw a bunch of dice to be able to look at something and say "that's not a good value", or "Pyrovores still suck". Reading comprehension is a thing that actually exists, and makes people able to understand the mechanics of something. I know that sounds crazy, but it's true.

I think the problem is that people are ignoring the potential to have 5++/5+++ pseudo-fleeting Waaagh! Boy squads. There's a lot of complaints about what was lost, but not much about what was gained.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:


Believe it or not, I don't have to throw a bunch of dice to be able to look at something and say "that's not a good value", or "Pyrovores still suck". Reading comprehension is a thing that actually exists, and makes people able to understand the mechanics of something. I know that sounds crazy, but it's true.

I think the problem is that people are ignoring the potential to have 5++/5+++ pseudo-fleeting Waaagh! Boy squads. There's a lot of complaints about what was lost, but not much about what was gained.

In common with essentially every codex change, ever.

I have played a pseudo-game of 7th and I used the new Mek Gun rules in that list. I played a friends white scars bike list that was all bikes, and all the bikes scouted.

I had 3 units of 15 Lootas, 3 units of 3 KMK, 1 unit of nob bikes, w/ biker boss. I ended up winning the game , but that was mainly cause luck was on my side. Also there was a moment my Warboss accepted a challenge from Khan survived his S6 ID attack because of his 5++, then killed him.

Now with the new rules, that list is invalid. Also the list drops it's hitting and staying power.
*nobz can't be troops
*not enough slots for both Lootas & Mek Gunz
*no inv
*have to now spend an extra grot unit tax
*lost exhaust cloud

I replay that game in my mind, with the new rules, and i don't think I would have done as well. I can't make that list work now, and it was the best I could find in this edition so far.

I get that we have to relearn Orks, but nothing so far leaked is striking me as, "WOW that'll really help my game play"... It's all been a bunch of Meh.

mrfantastical wrote:

*nobz can't be troops
*not enough slots for both Lootas & Mek Gunz

Unbound.

 Wilytank wrote:

mrfantastical wrote:

*nobz can't be troops
*not enough slots for both Lootas & Mek Gunz

Unbound.

Guess I'll have to, but I feel that's a fail in game design.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Davor wrote:
So would you rather have the Tyranid codex? It sucks it seems you got the Nid treatment, but just wait for the codex to come out.

One thing I hated about people dissing the Nid codex is they haven't even tried it out. For the crap GW gets for not playtesting, you are doing the same.

So if you can't even play test first before complaining, then GW is doing EVERYTHING correctly when they don't play test properly.

After all if everyone else can Mathhammer, so can GW when it releases it books and not play test. What I am saying is, don't blame GW for poor balance when people can't playtest as well.

Wait, what? You're saying people need to play test before complaining and then use Tyranids as an example... except many of the Tyranid complaints were valid. Most the Tyranid complaints I read back then centered on a severe lack of internal balance. Most Tyranid complaints I read now still focus on a severe lack of internal balance. There were also complaints that the power level of the Codex was low, which is valid depending on which other armies you use as measuring sticks.

Personally, I like to see how the complaints and compliments evolve from pre-release rumours through the first few months of a codex. You might lambaste players for not playtesting, but the fact is we HAVE been play testing the previous edition for 2 years, and people have been playtesting the old Ork codex across 6 and a half years and 2 editions, so while it might not be ideal, we can typically make educated guesses at what changes in the Codex will what affect the table.

What I am saying is we give GW flak for not playtesting. So how can we COMPLAIN about lousy codicies when we do the same. We are claiming we are so much smarter than GW, but yet do the EXACT same thing and just mathhammer. So if we can Mathhamer and complain, GW can mathhammer and make codicies.

If we are making educated guesses, GW can make educated guesses as well and they have been doing it for 30 years now. (Fantasy included.) What I am saying is our complaining is invalidated since we are doing the same thing we say GW is doing. So how can we take our complaints seriously? If our complaints our valid, then GW design is valid as well.

In other words, we are Hypocrites. Doing what we complaint about.

Davor wrote:
What I am saying is we give GW flak for not playtesting. So how can we COMPLAIN about lousy codicies when we do the same.

GW has to playtest because we pay them a premium to make good rules. Playtesting is a part of making good rules. No one has paid us to playtest, and not only that we *can't* playtest yet. When we can we will - until then, we'll discuss what we know. Nothing hypocritical about that in the slightest until GW start paying us.

mrfantastical wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:

mrfantastical wrote:

*nobz can't be troops
*not enough slots for both Lootas & Mek Gunz

Unbound.

Guess I'll have to, but I feel that's a fail in game design.

Taking more than one primary detachment could also do the same..Seeing as a metric ton of boyz is a good thing, getting 4 or 6 troops isn't a huge deal.

grendel083 wrote:Or in this case our main troops did not increase by 10 pts but dropped by 1.

Everything and it's dog was denying Ork saves, play tau and you don't get a single save all game. So does it really matter that half the saves are gone? Now you're not wasting points on something that will be denied. And gone is the limit on 'Ard Boys. So armour your army if you want!

And Ork invulnerables were never great. Their loss will bearly be noticed. For shooting we now have a 5++ invulnerble from the KFF if needed. Combat is the same as before, either they kill the Warboss or he kills them.

Getting more Ork bodies into combat is way more important than the terrible saves we used to have available. And THAT is an improvment that is all over the codex. Run and Charge has been mentioned already. Re-rolls. +2" charge range out of a vehicle (and vehicles themselves are tougher in this edition).

The book has had an overhaul. There's too many people focusing on the negative changes and comparing them to the old Codex.
Fresh thinking is needed here, get out of the old ways they don't work anymore.

"The Tyranid Treatment" - That's were the internet cried for months, then they actually played a few games and found they're actually pretty solid (but continue to cry).

My next post made it quite clear that those were meant to be extreme examples, but not actually examples from the codex. As you say, we didn't have armor saves to begin with, so we can't exactly lose them. We also didn't lose access to 'Eavy Armor (which went down a point for Nobz squads and characters) or Mega Armor. I've been following N&R since day 1, I'm aware of the changes.

Ork invulnerable saves were never on par with other armies', no. But they were at least still there, and something to give you a chance. Now that chance is gone. If you don't think an invulnerable save was ever used, taken or noticed in close combat then I don't know what else to say.

More Ork bodies are necessary everywhere; the new Mob Rule makes that quite clear. When your units drop below 10 models, they are essentially in self destruct mode whether it's 9 boyz or 9 nobz. I'm also not sure how you think that improved 'all over the codex'. Ork boyz didn't go down in price; they're still 6 PPM (+1 for shootas now) unless you are counting the ridiculous notion that Stikkbombs actually matter for I2 boyz. Nobz dropped in price, unless you want them on Bikes in which case they cost the same. Lootas dropped 1ppm though! *finger twirl* The only unit with both a noticeable price drop AND noticeable buff was Tankbustas, which I readily and happily acknowledge are the squig's knees at this point. Tankhammer gains AP3? Sweet. Lost Glory Hogs forcing their attacks and movement? Extra sweet! Gained Tank Hunters, about frelling time! The only issue I can raise with Tankbustas is that their nobz don't have access to Bosspoles, which are almost mandatory for a unit that small. Which means you're basically forced to add another character to the unit to babysit.

"The Tyranid Treatment", where the codex was basically an uninspired copy/paste, new stuff not really adding anything lacking and none of the actual weaknesses shored up. Oh, and Leadership rules completely frelled sideways. Regardless of the strength of the codex builds (which I acknowledge can and will be found for the new Orks book), to pretend that the last 2 xenos releases have been a quality anywhere remotely on par with SM or IG is delusional.

I'll say it again, before I get the "you're not forced to play orks" or other such drivel. I have already ordered the Warboss edition of this release. I am in process of building war buggies (which saw a few buffs in the new book) and a Blitz Bomma (which also got buffed). I am not crying that this codex is the death of Orks as an army, or any sort of final nail in any sort of 40k/ork/whatever coffin. I am presenting the reality of this book: it is uninspired drivel, doing very little to shore up the weaknesses orks have suffered with for multiple editions, hurting orks with the garbage Mob Rule/Bosspole nerf, and basically passing up every single opportunity to make a 3 edition codex update an actual worthwhile update.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I think the problem is that people are ignoring the potential to have 5++/5+++ pseudo-fleeting Waaagh! Boy squads. There's a lot of complaints about what was lost, but not much about what was gained.

We're not. There's just also no such thing. 5++ KFF only applies to models, and only vs shooting. The 5+ FNP from a Painboy is very nice for Boyz though, and I have already said it will be a staple in a very, very crowded slot (HQ). Warbosses will have a hard time justifying their slot, honestly, having to compete with Big Meks (5++ KFF on a bike is nice for vehicles) and Pain Boyz (for 5+ FnP).