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Not sure if this is a real argument or just something to try to upset some Dark Angel fans. Have the Dark Angel chapter really fallen to Chaos or are they still loyal to the emperor? So far the only reasoning for this is in fact a portion of their legion has rebelled against the loyalist but correct me if I'm wrong wasn't Luther really the only one tainted by Chaos and even then it was through his jealousy of Lion's success. Another thing is that they have one of the purest gene seeds amongst the Adeptus Astartes so how could they possibly be tainted by chaos.

This may seem like a little ramble but I just wanted to get this off my chest and have the community put in their few cents to really ends this. So if you believe the Dark Angels are chaos or not then please explain why that is and bring up some examples that support your claims. I hope this doesn't become a very heated thread but I really felt that this needed to be sorted out and so this whole thing can be put to rest once and for all.

There is absolutely no chance that the Dark Angels are Chaotic. Yes, part of their Legion Fell during the Heresy, but this is hardly unique-every Legion had groups that Fell, and groups that stayed Loyal. The fact that the Dark Angels are still harping on about it in private is the reason everyone knows about the Fallen.

You also don't need tainted gene seed to be Heretic, or pure gene seed to be loyal. Point in case is the Blood Angels and Night Lords, respectively. It's just a bunch of junk made up to upset devout fans (who need to chill).

There loyal, but the whole fallen quest has lead to unfortunate incidents like one with black templers etc.

Given the extremes to which they go in order to protect the Fallen from the Imperium, they definitely count as heretics in my book.

spacemarinedude92 wrote: I hope this doesn't become a very heated thread but I really felt that this needed to be sorted out and so this whole thing can be put to rest once and for all.

Nothing rests once and for all as long as the Internet exists..

Furyou Miko wrote:Given the extremes to which they go in order to protect the Fallen from the Imperium, they definitely count as heretics in my book.

Heresy, heresy everywhere....


But to answer the question: ( finally since the OP said so )

NO.

The first Legion has not fallen.

Some were fooled and the problem will be solved. What bites the DA in the ass is their tendency to secrecy.
Maybe they had to be careful as the first Legion was created and the info not meant to spread about the Emperors Project to replace the Thunder Warriors. ?
A bad combo of a Primarch with limited social skills and a time when trust was lost made it worse IMHO. 40k DA is what you get if you don't talk but shoot first ...

No. The entire reason they hunt the Fallen all the time is so they can redeem themselves in the Emperors eyes. Except Asmodai who is just mad if you ask me.

It's worth noting that disloyal, treasonous, or even traitorous actions don't necessarily equate with 'fallen to Chaos'.

Even heretical activities (worshipping other gods, not accepting the Emperor as divine) aren't equivalent to 'falling to Chaos'.

Sebastian Thor defied the recognized Ecclesiastical authority, and definitely wasn't a slave to Chaos. Many Space Marine chapters deny the Imperial Creed (a sore point with the Ecclesiarchy) but certainly aren't Chaotic. Tons of Rogue Traders do shady, extralegal deals, but wouldn't dream of throwing in with daemons or Traitor Marines.

The Inner Circle of the Dark Angels (remember, most DA are just as straight-laced and squeaky-clean as the Ultramarines) are walking a very dangerous path, one that IMHO was started out of arrogance and pride (we know better how to handle this, and no one else can know), but their 'sins' have compounded so much over the millennia that I don't know how they could ever step off it. Ironically, the original 'Fall' would probably, at this point, be less of a big deal than the fact that the DA have kept it a secret, and murdered and betrayed other loyalist forces to keep it so, for thousands of years.

Da Butcha wrote:
It's worth noting that disloyal, treasonous, or even traitorous actions don't necessarily equate with 'fallen to Chaos'.

Even heretical activities (worshipping other gods, not accepting the Emperor as divine) aren't equivalent to 'falling to Chaos'.

Sebastian Thor defied the recognized Ecclesiastical authority, and definitely wasn't a slave to Chaos. Many Space Marine chapters deny the Imperial Creed (a sore point with the Ecclesiarchy) but certainly aren't Chaotic. Tons of Rogue Traders do shady, extralegal deals, but wouldn't dream of throwing in with daemons or Traitor Marines.

The Inner Circle of the Dark Angels (remember, most DA are just as straight-laced and squeaky-clean as the Ultramarines) are walking a very dangerous path, one that IMHO was started out of arrogance and pride (we know better how to handle this, and no one else can know), but their 'sins' have compounded so much over the millennia that I don't know how they could ever step off it. Ironically, the original 'Fall' would probably, at this point, be less of a big deal than the fact that the DA have kept it a secret, and murdered and betrayed other loyalist forces to keep it so, for thousands of years.

I agree completely. They haven't fallen to Chaos, but I certainly wouldn't consider them loyal any more either. They are willing to sacrifice anything to keep their secret and/or capture the Fallen.

Yeah I will agree that the Dark Angels may have committed quite heretical act to maintain secrecy but I do feel that none of the other loyalists ever had deal with such a scale of unrest amongst the legion. Most are trying to use the rebelling in the legion as a example of chaos but the only truth is that they had some serious daddy issues and felt left out.

They haven't.

Just like a lot of the Fallen. We'll always remember you
Astalan!

Eh no.

Also, not really daddy issues that lead to Luther falling.

Where did you hear that the Dark Angels were aligned with chaos? And who said this? I haven't really ever heard of someone trying to defend this viewpoint.

Yes they have! All you greybeards now what I'm talking about. The Emperor(GW) created them Native American and clad in black armour... Chaos(GW) turned them into green monastic knights! The heresy is abstract but undeniable...

I consider them heretics, though not necessarily 'fallen to Chaos'.

But the number of times they have betrayed loyal Imperial troops for their own ends has turned their whole chapter away from the light of the Emperor, in my headcanon.

 Ignatius wrote:
Eh no.

Also, not really daddy issues that lead to Luther falling.

Where did you hear that the Dark Angels were aligned with chaos? And who said this? I haven't really ever heard of someone trying to defend this viewpoint.

It really started by a pal but later discovering a small group in the local players at my nearest GW store but it's as vague as the whole sanguinius and horus lover relationship that seems to spreading as well.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I consider them heretics, though not necessarily 'fallen to Chaos'.

But the number of times they have betrayed loyal Imperial troops for their own ends has turned their whole chapter away from the light of the Emperor, in my headcanon.

Where is your fervor? This is a black and white universe. If you're not a loyal servant of the Emperor, you serve chaos!

Eldar serve chaos!

Orks serve chaos!

We are the Imperium of Man, and all else is chaos!

They do not serve chaos but want to keep their flawed gene seed secret.

Someone posted they have perfect gene seed but this is not true.

If 1-2 members of a chapter forgo unquestioned submission to authority, you can pass it off as a problem with the individual.

But when half the chapter does this, it is a problem in the geneseed that allows free thought and if it were discovered, the chapter would be eradicated.

We do not serve chaos. If we disagree with the Imperium it is the Imperium that is wrong.

They do not serve chaos but want to keep their flawed gene seed secret.

Someone posted they have perfect gene seed but this is not true.

If 1-2 members of a chapter forgo unquestioned submission to authority, you can pass it off as a problem with the individual.

But when half the chapter does this, it is a problem in the geneseed that allows free thought and if it were discovered, the chapter would be eradicated.

scorpio2069 wrote:
They do not serve chaos but want to keep their flawed gene seed secret.

Someone posted they have perfect gene seed but this is not true.

If 1-2 members of a chapter forgo unquestioned submission to authority, you can pass it off as a problem with the individual.

But when half the chapter does this, it is a problem in the geneseed that allows free thought and if it were discovered, the chapter would be eradicated.

That's not a geneseed flaw, geneseed does not determine a marine's level of free will. With the Dark Angels it really is just a matter of being trained or "raised" this way. It is a self-perpetuating system, as the marines have had this mindset instilled in them, and they will in turn instill the same mindset in the next generation of the chapter.

And by extension there successors as there first founding.

But that's now some 7000-8000 marines that were well cone yes and interlinked as a semi legion under dark angel chomand now against you.

Only a force like the combined black templers could match that marine to marine.

Heard the expression, "The victors write the history."? Well Luther won and he has been privately whispering into the Grand Masters ear ever since. You think a mere lone space marine, regardless of his rank, can resist Luther's golden tougue? A dark angel marine may start out pure, but their indoctrination unknowingly taints them.

In what way did Luther win? He's insane and in a prison cell...

He is still there and Johnson (as far as they know) is gone, therefore he wins. Insane? Trapped? He is hidden and communicating/manipulating the leader of, as stated earlier, a near legion sized chapter! He's right where he wants to be, the man behind the curtain.

Furf what are you talking about?

First off th Lion is pretty much explicitly stated as being inside of the Rock healing until the Imperium needs him most. In fact he is the most "alive" loyalist Primarch.

And no, Luther has been driven mad by his betrayal, and his consciousness lends nothing to the Dark Angels overall strategy. Where are you getting any of this?

Furf wrote:
He is still there and Johnson (as far as they know) is gone, therefore he wins. Insane? Trapped? He is hidden and communicating/manipulating the leader of, as stated earlier, a near legion sized chapter! He's right where he wants to be, the man behind the curtain.

Someone not knowing you lost doesn't change the fact you lost. I have no idea about what battles the Romans lost but they still lost.

Given the extremes to which they go in order to protect the Fallen from the Imperium, they definitely count as heretics in my book.

The sisters fans are always so quick to say that the Astarte's are heretics, I'm not sure if its larping for their own faction or out of spite because of how they've been neglected.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:

Given the extremes to which they go in order to protect the Fallen from the Imperium, they definitely count as heretics in my book.

The sisters fans are always so quick to say that the Astarte's are heretics, I'm not sure if its larping for their own faction or out of spite because of how they've been neglected.

A very long neglect. They still have mostly metal models and no real battle armour, hardly a match for land raiders or the hevey fliers.

jhe90 wrote:

Ironclad Warlord wrote:

Given the extremes to which they go in order to protect the Fallen from the Imperium, they definitely count as heretics in my book.

The sisters fans are always so quick to say that the Astarte's are heretics, I'm not sure if its larping for their own faction or out of spite because of how they've been neglected.

A very long neglect. They still have mostly metal models and no real battle armour, hardly a match for land raiders or the hevey fliers.

Hardly a match?

I've seen sisters players wreck marines.

The main reason to think that many Space Marine chapters are traitors is that they are. There are very few Space Marine chapters I respect as true subjects of the Emperor, Black Templars among them, and many if not most of the others I consider traitors.

I am not a sisters player.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:

Given the extremes to which they go in order to protect the Fallen from the Imperium, they definitely count as heretics in my book.

The sisters fans are always so quick to say that the Astarte's are heretics, I'm not sure if its larping for their own faction or out of spite because of how they've been neglected.

It's certainly not Sisterhood spite, I'll tell you that for free.

Its because the Dark Angels have caused as many loyalist casualties since the Heresy as some Chaos Legions.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Its because the Dark Angels have caused as many loyalist casualties since the Heresy as some Chaos Legions.

Whoa what? Where is this stated?