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Quick reminder that DakkaDakka is not the forum to advertise recasters or advocating recasting. Thanks!

I wouldn't care if someone has recasts. That said I'm actually worried some of the models I filled out my army with are recasts. I bought them off eBay and they came from China but there's only so many ways to get those last few 1989 marines.... and the prices were good. But then they showed up and looked so shiny... yeah they're probably recasts. But I couldn't even tell you which ones they were now they're painted and the vast bulk of the force is legit.

I bought them before getting into the forums or what not when I decided to get back into 40k and before I knew there were recasters. Would anyone have a problem with facing my army?

 Kojiro wrote:
eBay
China
1989 marines
prices were good

Did they even do resin back then?

seems incredibly obvious. or am i missing the sarcasm

 Kojiro wrote:
I wouldn't care if someone has recasts. That said I'm actually worried some of the models I filled out my army with are recasts. I bought them off eBay and they came from China but there's only so many ways to get those last few 1989 marines.... and the prices were good. But then they showed up and looked so shiny... yeah they're probably recasts. But I couldn't even tell you which ones they were now they're painted and the vast bulk of the force is legit.

I bought them before getting into the forums or what not when I decided to get back into 40k and before I knew there were recasters. Would anyone have a problem with facing my army?

Who really cares with miniatures that are that old? GW hasn't had a vested interest in them since about 1994. You shoudn't have to be 40 years old to have bought them In-store, or pay collectors prices on gaming pawns just because you love the style of something that was even more of a boutique item back then than gaming miniatures are nowadays.

I would love to play against an army of "old" miniatures, especially if any of the (possible) recasts are not done with ill intent.

Recasters don't just work in resin, someone earlier was saying people were buying from recasters because they're still in metal.

In Sweden it is legal to buy and use pirated copies, but not to make or sell them.

Go figure.

That's...pretty much the case everywhere dude. At least as far as I can tell.

In the UK, at least until very recently, it was illegal to buy an item with an FM transmitter, it was illegal to sell an item with an FM transmitter, but it wasn't illegal to USE an item with an FM transmitter, despite the fact that one couldn't obtain it without breaking the law.

Figure that one out!

 azreal13 wrote:
That's...pretty much the case everywhere dude. At least as far as I can tell.

Hey, I do not know the laws in all other countries.

'Dude'.

In the same way that it used to be legal to torrent items online, but illegal to upload them.

 azreal13 wrote:
That's...pretty much the case everywhere dude. At least as far as I can tell.

In the UK, at least until very recently, it was illegal to buy an item with an FM transmitter, it was illegal to sell an item with an FM transmitter, but it wasn't illegal to USE an item with an FM transmitter, despite the fact that one couldn't obtain it without breaking the law.

Figure that one out!

Grandfather rules for items which exist and were/are owned prior to the implementation of the law.

In Utah my 1968 Ford Bronco does not have to pass emissions tests, because cars that old have/had no system or controls to enable them to pass modern emissions and any sort of retrofit would be extremely costly and reduce the value inherent in the car. It still has to pass safety inspections the same as any other car, but for emissions it is exempt (where our Kia is not).

 azreal13 wrote:


But a GW store manager cares nothing for such things.

He did not pay to design and sculpt a model, the only thing he cares about is whether he sold you the model (in which case it counts towards his performance) or didn't. Where the model actually originated from if it wasn't from him is irrelevant. Sure, there might be some awkward silences if you continually unpack new units each week and he knows you're not getting them from him, but that isn't entirely reliant on those models being recast.

Well, there's a big difference between buying official GW products in FLGS and buying recasts. Just remember that the GW store manager is, foremost, a GW employee and his company's gain should be a priority of his. If it's models sold in stores then it's okay - he can only be sad that you didn't buy it from him personally, but you're still buying it legally, so his employer gets the money for it. Zero tolerance towards recasts is expected of him as it hurts the company he's working for; the one that gives him his salary. He also acts as their representative in that area and if one of the "gw commissars"(we actually have those inspectors here that make sure FLGSes aren't doing anything cheeky with the GW stock like selling stuff before it's released, figure it's not unlikely for them to pop in a GW store too if there's one) sees that he's tolerating recasts he might even lose his job. Again - he should be making sure that his company is not getting screwed over by recasts and clearly express that he's not going to tolerate them in his store.

 azreal13 wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I understand why one may feel that taking recasts into a GW store might be excessively cheeky, but I do find it curious how various people posting ITT seem to have these hypothetical, arbitrary "lines in the sand" when, in the final analysis, they don't really hold up.

I guess it has a lot to do with the upbringing and values they've been taught. I, for one, would never do it and I would never tolerate anyone doing something in a place I run as I find it very insulting to the host. It's just too much of a dick move to me and I'd really need lots of hate and disrespect to do something like that to someone.. and even then I'd probably not do it - just avoid that place and not spend any money there. And then we have those that'd probably grab a bunch of recasts in their hands and rub them against the GW store's window making noise and doing a victory dance for their own reasons. It's funny how much really boils down to how people were raised. :-)

 Klerych wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:


But a GW store manager cares nothing for such things.

He did not pay to design and sculpt a model, the only thing he cares about is whether he sold you the model (in which case it counts towards his performance) or didn't. Where the model actually originated from if it wasn't from him is irrelevant. Sure, there might be some awkward silences if you continually unpack new units each week and he knows you're not getting them from him, but that isn't entirely reliant on those models being recast.

Well, there's a big difference between buying official GW products in FLGS and buying recasts. Just remember that the GW store manager is, foremost, a GW employee and his company's gain should be a priority of his. If it's models sold in stores then it's okay - he can only be sad that you didn't buy it from him personally, but you're still buying it legally, so his employer gets the money for it. Zero tolerance towards recasts is expected of him as it hurts the company he's working for; the one that gives him his salary. He also acts as their representative in that area and if one of the "gw commissars"(we actually have those inspectors here that make sure FLGSes aren't doing anything cheeky with the GW stock like selling stuff before it's released, figure it's not unlikely for them to pop in a GW store too if there's one) sees that he's tolerating recasts he might even lose his job. Again - he should be making sure that his company is not getting screwed over by recasts and clearly express that he's not going to tolerate them in his store.

What I'm struggling with in this narrative, is where the manager becomes they're aware recasts? Because every thing you've said makes perfect sense, and is totally reasonable, except the hypothetical point in time where the manager's whiskers twitch and he goes "hey you, those models that are completely indistinguishable from other models of the same type, those are recasts!"

Why, if you did have the brass testiclé to take recasts into any commercial setting, would you tell the proprietor?!

 azreal13 wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I understand why one may feel that taking recasts into a GW store might be excessively cheeky, but I do find it curious how various people posting ITT seem to have these hypothetical, arbitrary "lines in the sand" when, in the final analysis, they don't really hold up.

I guess it has a lot to do with the upbringing and values they've been taught. I, for one, would never do it and I would never tolerate anyone doing something in a place I run as I find it very insulting to the host. It's just too much of a dick move to me and I'd really need lots of hate and disrespect to do something like that to someone.. and even then I'd probably not do it - just avoid that place and not spend any money there. And then we have those that'd probably grab a bunch of recasts in their hands and rub them against the GW store's window making noise and doing a victory dance for their own reasons. It's funny how much really boils down to how people were raised. :-)

I actually think people, when push comes to shove, are fundamentally good. I just think there's an inversely proportionate relationship in terms of the perceived severity of the crime and the number of people who would be prepared to do it, so the lower level a crime is commonly held to be in society, the greater number of individuals are prepared to do it.

Sure, social deprivation and circumstances play a part too (how many more people would be prepared to kill to save a loved one vs how many people would be prepared to kill solely for money for instance.)

But the point I was making was more that people saying things like "buying recasts is wrong, but doing it yourself is ok" are drawing arbitrary lines when in actual fact, in terms of any morality, the net result is the same (depriving the originator of the product money equal to the value of the product that person ultimately ends up owning.) Even if manufacturing "back up copies" is legal in that person's home country, the moment the intent behind making back ups is to avoid purchasing further copies, rather than any sort of protection/archiving, any moral stance disappears, even if the process itself is technically legal.

It's just an example of the little lies we all tell ourselves in order to keep our perspective on the world from disintegrating, or possibly just an example of people not thinking the full extent of their statements through to their natural conclusion!

Klerych, your comments are bordering on the inflammatory, over a hypothetical situation.

-----------------------

If your opponent has competently cast miniatures, and bothered putting at least a base coat on them, you should never be able to notice they are recasts.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Still wondering- does anyone think that the reproducing, and/or distributing for free use of abandoned material is immoral/stealing?

Much like out of print media such as books, games, music etc - it's possibly/probably illegal depending on country, but few people argue it's unethical. ROMs/abandonware are a well known thing on PC, and some websites operate openly hosting these for download. I imagine if they're contacted by a rights holder they'll take down the requested items. I don't see any difference with physical products in this regard as it's the copyright involved in both cases.

 azreal13 wrote:
But the point I was making was more that people saying things like "buying recasts is wrong, but doing it yourself is ok" are drawing arbitrary lines when in actual fact, in terms of any morality, the net result is the same (depriving the originator of the product money equal to the value of the product that person ultimately ends up owning.) Even if manufacturing "back up copies" is legal in that person's home country, the moment the intent behind making back ups is to avoid purchasing further copies, rather than any sort of protection/archiving, any moral stance disappears, even if the process itself is technically legal.

It's just an example of the little lies we all tell ourselves in order to keep our perspective on the world from disintegrating, or possibly just an example of people not thinking the full extent of their statements through to their natural conclusion!

I agree, but our brains *are* wired that way until you train yourself out of it. You know the whole "would you sacrifice one to save ten" thing that changes if you have to manually redirect a train from hitting the ten to hitting the one. I could link a very interesting lecture series on that topic btw!

For me, the whole "copyright" thing revolves around the initial premise of copyright - the goal was to encourage the creation of creative works for the betterment of society, *not* to reward the producers of the works. The mechanism by which it does this, is granting an artificial monopoly on the production of that work - initially it was for 7 years, unlike now - which ensures that people were rewarded for their work, thus encouraging them to create more. Now we have a situation where the system is warped so far from its original goal that it's actively detrimental to the production of creative works as seen with the GW lawsuit vs chapterhouse. That is not acceptable imo, and one of the few ways we can push back against it other than our votes - which are largely meaningless, with the ill-informed public for example voting in Abbott in Australia (I still tell everyone to vote green!) - is to ignore the laws that have been so warped.

I would play them and ask where they got them if quality matched or came close to gw for much cheaper I would buy from them in a heartbeat. Gw really prices themselves to high for what they offer. They are hemoraging customers to other games left and right and ifeven given the new York codex and 7th I am debating how much war machine/hordes models I could get for my 40k collection at times

Riddle me this, what if someone that is actively purchasing a large quantity of cheap recasted models, paints them well, and is the "Good Guy Greg" of his 40k community sparking interest and loads of tournaments, events, and what not, is he still a bad guy?

What if going to a GW store with recasted models allows someone who wouldn't have played the game to get one in and that, in turn, inspires him to buy some stuff he wouldn't have otherwise?

Remember, it's not like pirated video games. Someone's recasts could be your fun, too. Any thoughts on that viewpoint?

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Still wondering- does anyone think that the reproducing, and/or distributing for free use of abandoned material is immoral/stealing?

.
I don't think it's stealing because I don't think IP infringement is stealing. They're different offenses.


I do think there's a moral grey area still with copying things that are no longer available. On the one hand, the company that owns the IP has chosen not to do anything with it, and so they're (arguably) not losing any income as a result (I say arguably because it could be argued that the guy casting out of production Squats in his basement might, if that were not an option, be buying current models instead.)... but on the other hand, it should be the right of the company that owns the IP to determine whether or not people have access to that IP. In other words, if they choose to not make a given product available, you have no intrinsic right to it... it's their choice as the owner of the product to not sell it to you.

I'd rather play against recasts than people using counts as. I'm not talking about "this spacemarine is actually my commissar for this game, want to see if i like him" but the use of Pepsi cans as drop pods and poker chips as models. its happened.

recasts, and burned dvds/cds don't bother me, is it stealing? yes. do i care? no. i guess I'm just desensitized to it, i really could care less. but, at the same time i would be very vigilant about seeing someone steal a candy bar. out of sight, out of mind? idk, but the idea of recasts just doesn't bother me.

If GW didn't want pirated models out there then they shouldn't have priced out so many people.

And besides, it's a question of morality and has nothing to do with the game played, you can't even tell the difference visually so it's not like the experience is ruined, you merely disagree on one of millions of morally grey areas.

Would you not play with someone because you disagreed politically? Or free-handed grapes at the grocery store?

 robam45 wrote:
If GW didn't want pirated models out there then they shouldn't have priced out so many people.

GW shouldn't have been dressed like that either, the tramp!

And besides, it's a question of morality and has nothing to do with the game played, you can't even tell the difference visually so it's not like the experience is ruined, you merely disagree on one of millions of morally grey areas.

Would you not play with someone because you disagreed politically? Or free-handed grapes at the grocery store?

Self-righteousness is the opiate of the modern era.

 Desubot wrote:

Did they even do resin back then?

seems incredibly obvious. or am i missing the sarcasm

The recasts came in a very shiny metal which I'm pretty sure wasn't lead. I bought them to supplement my 'Nothing After 1990 Army' (in my sig) about a year or so ago.

But either regardless of if someone is recasting the latest stuff or 25 year old models it's still making money of someone else's work. That said it's hard to see the damage done to GW since they haven't sold this stuff in years.

Steam still has up to 200% price increase for Australia as per the rest of the world... While it is still our best way to get games, don't fool yourself into thinking that it's anything other than the business model that works in this generation. If the prices could be ramped up in your country without significant loss of sales, they would be

There *is* significant loss of sales due to regional pricing (and other shenanigans) in Australia btw, we're well known as the highest rate of piraters per capita. It's totally not due to our heritage as convicts gorramit! ; )

 Yonan wrote:
There *is* significant loss of sales due to regional pricing (and other shenanigans) in Australia btw, we're well known as the highest rate of piraters per capita. It's totally not due to our heritage as convicts gorramit! ; )

Which also goes hand in hand with the fact that we get priced higher than everybody else. The loss of sales would be less if the prices were lower. But since everyone else overcharges already, I imagine steam prices being bumped up won't lose them as much customers here as it would elsewhere.

Or were you saying that they justify charging their paying customers extra based on the fact that others choose to pirate the product they have for sale?

The more exclusive something becomes, either through price or availability, the more likely it is to be forged.

My view is simple.

Wrong is wrong.

While I have ZERO love or tolerance for GW, the reality is that casting stuff that is not your design is using an intellectual property without permission, and is at best infringement, at worst, theft.

Regardless of what you tell yourself, or how people justify it, it doesn't matter much at all.

With that said, re-casting anything is on the player, the person to make the arbitrary moral decision if they see it as right or wrong. If they don't see it as wrong, that's their own ethical compass their dealing with. It's no impact to me one way or another.

As long as I can tell what units are and they don't make it a point to tell me they are re-casting stuff, you probably won't hear me complain much about the game I play.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
There *is* significant loss of sales due to regional pricing (and other shenanigans) in Australia btw, we're well known as the highest rate of piraters per capita. It's totally not due to our heritage as convicts gorramit! ; )

Which also goes hand in hand with the fact that we get priced higher than everybody else. The loss of sales would be less if the prices were lower. But since everyone else overcharges already, I imagine steam prices being bumped up won't lose them as much customers here as it would elsewhere.

Or were you saying that they justify charging their paying customers extra based on the fact that others choose to pirate the product they have for sale?

I think I was just saying in a semi-related matter that they think it works in their favour here - selling less copies at a higher price, but it's hard to track the number of lost sales of which I think there are many so they may very well be losing out directly as a result, in addition to indirectly by causing a lot of bad will. ie. ubisoft has a horrible reputation in general thanks to DRM and what not, but adding regional pricing into the mix froths some people (*whistles innocently*) into a rage. Much like has happened with GW I guess (*keeps whistling*).

 azreal13 wrote:
What I'm struggling with in this narrative, is where the manager becomes they're aware recasts? Because every thing you've said makes perfect sense, and is totally reasonable, except the hypothetical point in time where the manager's whiskers twitch and he goes "hey you, those models that are completely indistinguishable from other models of the same type, those are recasts!"

Why, if you did have the brass testiclé to take recasts into any commercial setting, would you tell the proprietor?!

Oh, it was more like an abstract, hypothetical situation in which, say, the manager sees an influx of Finecast, Forge World or Mail Order models on the tables of people he rather noticed to be less wealthy. I'm not talking about spying or judging the customers - I must admit, I don't know a single GW store manager because there is only one official GW store in Poland and it's in the capital, so it's just the numerous FLGSes that people deal with in person and usually if you go somewhere often, you can befriend the owner or one of the employees and he'll sooner or later know his 'herd' if they'll be coming regularly, so it wouldn't be hard to figure that. In case of FLGSes it's more of a "meh, they didn't buy it from me..!", but GW employee, while not having to care about it personally, is still bound to make a harsh, official stance on that he doesn't ever want to get even smallest hint that those models are recasted and players should definetely keep that to themselves or they'll be banned from tournament or something, because that's a hit on his company of which he is a representative. He doesn't have to be an evil machiavellian corporate tool that only seeks to milk the walking cash cows for his company, but he has to at least pretend to care, because otherwise there might be a situation like the one I mentioned when an undercover GW inspector walks in and overhears that someone brags about his recast within an earshot of manager/employee who doesn't take any actions. I know, fat chance, but it may happen and noone would want to lose his job over some players' careless talks if he didn't make it clear that recasts aren't tolerated there. :-)

 azreal13 wrote:

I actually think people, when push comes to shove, are fundamentally good. I just think there's an inversely proportionate relationship in terms of the perceived severity of the crime and the number of people who would be prepared to do it, so the lower level a crime is commonly held to be in society, the greater number of individuals are prepared to do it.

Sure, social deprivation and circumstances play a part too (how many more people would be prepared to kill to save a loved one vs how many people would be prepared to kill solely for money for instance.)

But the point I was making was more that people saying things like "buying recasts is wrong, but doing it yourself is ok" are drawing arbitrary lines when in actual fact, in terms of any morality, the net result is the same (depriving the originator of the product money equal to the value of the product that person ultimately ends up owning.) Even if manufacturing "back up copies" is legal in that person's home country, the moment the intent behind making back ups is to avoid purchasing further copies, rather than any sort of protection/archiving, any moral stance disappears, even if the process itself is technically legal.

It's just an example of the little lies we all tell ourselves in order to keep our perspective on the world from disintegrating, or possibly just an example of people not thinking the full extent of their statements through to their natural conclusion!

Unfortunately people, while usually good at heart, are huge hypocrites. They make rules for their lives and don't really feel like holding up to them, because there's always some nice excuse to justify breaking them. Of course I'm not saying I'm 100% morally pure either, I'm a human being too and, to be honest, I own a few recasts that are much better quality than any finecast model I've seen(aside from my fantastic finecast Dark Elf Assassin for WFB, it was 99.999999% perfect with only a tiiiiny bubble under his cape that couldn't be seen after painting and basing the model) and I probably might buy some more if hard pressed, especially Forge World models unless I decide to convert something to represent the same unit, because the prices are absolutely terrifying when compared to polish salaries. But again - I will never feel justified to do so; if I do it, I will know that I did something wrong and I'll largely feel guilty because it took the FW staff time, money and effort to design that piece, make rules for it, sculpt it, make molds of it and do all the development while I'll be depriving them of their rightful money. I guess that's what I meant by how being raised by parents affects the mindset later in life...

 adamsouza wrote:
Klerych, your comments are bordering on the inflammatory, over a hypothetical situation.

Hmm.. I really don't see why, but if they really do sound like that, then it's not intended!

And I meant people who brag or openly talk about recasts. :-)

 Yonan wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
There *is* significant loss of sales due to regional pricing (and other shenanigans) in Australia btw, we're well known as the highest rate of piraters per capita. It's totally not due to our heritage as convicts gorramit! ; )

Which also goes hand in hand with the fact that we get priced higher than everybody else. The loss of sales would be less if the prices were lower. But since everyone else overcharges already, I imagine steam prices being bumped up won't lose them as much customers here as it would elsewhere.

Or were you saying that they justify charging their paying customers extra based on the fact that others choose to pirate the product they have for sale?

I think I was just saying in a semi-related matter that they think it works in their favour here - selling less copies at a higher price, but it's hard to track the number of lost sales of which I think there are many so they may very well be losing out directly as a result, in addition to indirectly by causing a lot of bad will. ie. ubisoft has a horrible reputation in general thanks to DRM and what not, but adding regional pricing into the mix froths some people (*whistles innocently*) into a rage. Much like has happened with GW I guess (*keeps whistling*).

Yeah I agree - I have a few hundred steam games as well. They provide a good service to us and it's a much better business model than Games Workshop, but it's evident that that's all it is to them and will squeeze every dollar that they can under this directive. They don't gave to be fairly priced to be the best deal on the market - just cheaper than all the other people overcharging. Which is undeniably what they are doing to Australians by taking advantage of not needing to provide competitive prices. I'd love to be on the receiving end of U.S. prices, not paying 50% more for downloadable products that have no additional cost of sale.

I honestly wouldn't care in the slightest. I mean the main way you'd even find out most of the time is by asking everyone you play against if they have recasts, then what is the point anyways.

I've yet to see anyone address the question that if it's simply about morality then would you deny a game to someone who pirates music or doesn't pay their child support on time?

If so where does it end?

I mean, I understand that some are more inclined to see piracy as wrong but that doesn't explain why they won't play a game with someone.