Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
If that makes the person in question happier, it is good I guess, but couldn't the same result have been achieved in a more 'natural' way?

What 'natural' way are you talking about?

The way in which a person is born seems the natural one to me.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
If that makes the person in question happier, it is good I guess, but couldn't the same result have been achieved in a more 'natural' way?

What 'natural' way are you talking about?

The way in which a person is born seems the natural one to me.

Does it make the person in question happy?

If not, then it doesn't achieve the same result, now does it?

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 trexmeyer wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
To me, non-binary gender is on about the same level of validity as rainbow unicorns.

You either are a man or a woman. Or in dire need of psychological counceling.

That is an extremely ignorant viewpoint.

That may be.
But this is actually the first time I strongly agree with Sigvatr on something! Oh joyous day!
I just don't understand it I guess. You are either born male or female, there is nothing in between... I am of the opinion that people who feel they should be of a different gender just have a problem with accepting themselves, a problem that might be taken away with psychological help, instead of an expensive surgery that just turns you into a manwomanwomanman that will never look as female or male as an actual female or male. If that makes the person in question happier, it is good I guess, but couldn't the same result have been achieved in a more 'natural' way?
Feel free to disagree with me, but please, for the love of God, explain to me how there can be anything between man and woman!
I want to know.

Basically:

There are scientific definitions for what constitutes as a "male" and what constitutes as a "female".

It's possible to be born with genetics that give you the characteristics of both males and females.

It's also possible to change your characteristics so that you have female characteristics, or vice-versa.

- - - -

I think the issue is the context think about these things along. There is a scientific defitnion for alot of this stuff, and it's as close as one can get toward an objective opinion. Scientifically, it's possible to be of more than one gender. All you need is to have X or Y or XY physical characteristics.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
To me, non-binary gender is on about the same level of validity as rainbow unicorns.

You either are a man or a woman. Or in dire need of psychological counceling.

Well, thank you for confirming that you are a bigot and have no idea what you're talking about. What's next, a discussion of how round-earth theory is so absurd and anyone who doesn't accept a flat earth is in dire need of psychological counseling?

That's a little bit harsh. I disagree with Sigvatr, but his view certainly isn't uncommon. In a lot of cases, views like that stem from simple unfamiliarity, not necessarily bigotry. But of course, calling someone an ignorant bigot and dismissing their post out of hand is a much more useful approach than trying to illustrate the complexity of an issue that, judging from their response, they very likely haven't had much experience with.

I usually identify as male because the queue for the bathroom is always shorter.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
You are either born male or female, there is nothing in between...

And you are simply wrong about this. This isn't even something that is controversial among biologists, the neat black and white lines between male and female are just a useful approximation of a very messy subject. You can and do have various developmental problems that produce a mix of male and female characteristics, both physically and mentally.

I am of the opinion that people who feel they should be of a different gender just have a problem with accepting themselves, a problem that might be taken away with psychological help, instead of an expensive surgery that just turns you into a manwomanwomanman that will never look as female or male as an actual female or male.

And you are simply wrong about this. The ONLY reason to dismiss it as "just a problem with accepting themselves" is your persona lack of comfort with their problems. The actual experts in the subject pretty much unanimously agree that the best treatment for gender identity issues is hormones and/or surgery to bring the person's body in line with how their brain works. Attempting to convince them to "just accept who they are" works about as well as attempting to turn gay people straight.

If that makes the person in question happier, it is good I guess, but couldn't the same result have been achieved in a more 'natural' way?

Define "natural". Or at least try to, because you're inevitably going to fail. There is no definition of "natural" that rules out fixing gender issues by fixing the body but doesn't rule out, say, treating cancer with "unnatural" cures.

Feel free to disagree with me, but please, for the love of God, explain to me how there can be anything between man and woman!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
If that makes the person in question happier, it is good I guess, but couldn't the same result have been achieved in a more 'natural' way?

What 'natural' way are you talking about?

The way in which a person is born seems the natural one to me.

Do I presume you also disagree with fixing a baby's split palate, or an omphalocele, or heart defects?

 Ouze wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
If that makes the person in question happier, it is good I guess, but couldn't the same result have been achieved in a more 'natural' way?

What 'natural' way are you talking about?

The way in which a person is born seems the natural one to me.

Do I presume you also disagree with fixing a baby's split palate, or an omphalocele, or heart defects?

No, that is different. Those are defects. Being born with a certain gender and not liking it is not a defect.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
You are either born male or female, there is nothing in between...

And you are simply wrong about this. This isn't even something that is controversial among biologists, the neat black and white lines between male and female are just a useful approximation of a very messy subject. You can and do have various developmental problems that produce a mix of male and female characteristics, both physically and mentally.

You say so. I still have a hard time believing it, but that probably just means biology education in school is deficient.

 Peregrine wrote:

I am of the opinion that people who feel they should be of a different gender just have a problem with accepting themselves, a problem that might be taken away with psychological help, instead of an expensive surgery that just turns you into a manwomanwomanman that will never look as female or male as an actual female or male.

And you are simply wrong about this. The ONLY reason to dismiss it as "just a problem with accepting themselves" is your persona lack of comfort with their problems. The actual experts in the subject pretty much unanimously agree that the best treatment for gender identity issues is hormones and/or surgery to bring the person's body in line with how their brain works. Attempting to convince them to "just accept who they are" works about as well as attempting to turn gay people straight.

I guess so, I really don't know anything about the subject, so I will just shut up and listen to those experts you mention here. Could you point me towards one?

 Peregrine wrote:

If that makes the person in question happier, it is good I guess, but couldn't the same result have been achieved in a more 'natural' way?

Define "natural". Or at least try to, because you're inevitably going to fail. There is no definition of "natural" that rules out fixing gender issues by fixing the body but doesn't rule out, say, treating cancer with "unnatural" cures.

Darn it, you sound just like my philosophy teacher now.

 Peregrine wrote:

Feel free to disagree with me, but please, for the love of God, explain to me how there can be anything between man and woman!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

I had no idea.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
No, that is different. Those are defects. Being born with a certain gender and not liking it is not a defect.

Why not?

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Being born with a certain gender and not liking it is not a defect.

Yes it is. And it goes way beyond "not liking it". You're talking about people that have the brain "map" of one gender and the body of the other, resulting in a constant awareness that something is wrong. Imagine losing an arm but still trying to grab things with it because your brain still can't figure out that it is gone. Which is the better solution: give you a new arm, or convince you that you don't really need that arm anyway?

You say so. I still have a hard time believing it, but that probably just means biology education in school is deficient.

Biology education in school is massively simplified because there's a very limited amount of time to cover a lot of material. Approximating sex and gender as nice neat "male" and "female" categories is a useful tool because most of the time it does work that way. People with gender identity problems are a very small minority, and it doesn't make much sense to consider them when talking about things like the difference between male and female reproductive organs. But when you start talking about gender identity directly you need to remember that it's an approximation.

Here's an analogy: when you take a basic physics class you assume that Newtonian mechanics is correct even though we know that it indisputably isn't. Why? Because it's 99.9999999999999999999999% accurate in virtually every situation that you will ever encounter, and considering the relativistic model just adds in a lot of extra math. But if you want to do things like design GPS satellites you need to remember that Newtonian mechanics is just a convenient approximation and use the more accurate model.

Interesting.....

I suppose a lot of the gender identity issues can trace their roots back hundreds, if not thousands of years. Until quite recently there have been very fixed ideas as to how males and females are expected to behave and what jobs they're 'expected' to do, so it's not really surprising that a lot of people fell they have to define themselves by their gender and what society deems is appropriate for that gender. So there is the weight of centuries of expectation on how you should behave if you are male or female.

I'll quite freely admit, I am still sexist in some ways. I try not to be, and in some cases I know fine well that whatever I'm thinking or doing has no rational reason behind it in a modern society, but it's just difficult not to because when I grew up that's the way it was or that's how I was taught to behave with females. When I moved in with my partner she had a couple of little projects in mind that involved some DIY carpentry. As soon as she started prepping for the first project and got the saw out, I had to step up and make loud statements about how I would do it and it wasn't a problem and she didn't have to worry about it.

My other half is an engineer. I, on the other hand, am notoriously cack-handed. She had much more experience, training and natural ability with that kind of thing than I did and I still had to make a big show of taking over and doing it for her. And at the end of the day I did that because I'm a bloke, she's a girl, and blokes are 'expected' to do DIY stuff, and girls aren't.

Once the bleeding had mostly stopped and I was exiled away to play computer games so I wasn't underfoot anymore, I reflected on how completely daft I was being.

From a personal level I don't consciously feel that I define myself by my gender. But on reflection, subconsciously I do because I expect certain things of myself which shouldn't really matter but which do in some weird way purely because I am a bloke.

The thing is, I think it's automatic. No matter how much you suppress them you will still have these opinions on how people from a certain gender should behave, and by doing so you are in a way defining yourself by your own gender. Society is changing in this regard but it'll no doubt take a while before gender isn't a factor at all

 daedalus wrote:
Were I to resemble a woman, but be a man, it would probably bother me that people couldn't tell the difference.

People always confuse me for a woman on the phone, it annoys me. Especially when I correct them and they still call me madam...
I recently played some online game with audio chat, and people did not mistook me for a woman there. Maybe it is the way the phone change voices a bit?

 Cheesecat wrote:
I think there is some fairly convincing transsexuals out there, like Bailey Jay for example.

Spoiler:

I am not sure I want to know what you mean by "convincing".

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
If that makes the person in question happier, it is good I guess, but couldn't the same result have been achieved in a more 'natural' way?

What 'natural' way are you talking about?

The way in which a person is born seems the natural one to me.

Not to dogpile on you here, but I felt this was an interesting point:

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/11/02/us/study-links-brain-to-transsexuality.html

A structure deep within the brain, where the tangled roots of sexuality are thought to lie, differs substantially between ordinary men and transsexuals who have surgically transformed themselves from men into women, scientists have reported.

Essentially, the very structure of the brain is different, regardless of the physical qualities you were otherwise born with. That is, you may have a big ole donger hanging down, but if your brain is constantly telling you that you are a woman, that donger seems wrong and out of place. No amount of "learning to accept yourself" or other such things will change the fact that your very thought center is telling you something is wrong.

 Peregrine wrote:


I am dealing with it, by telling you that you're ignorant and a bigot. Don't like it? Don't post ignorant and bigoted things in a public forum.

So basically, you admit being a worse person than me - which is fine and no news. I simply shared my point of view and that's it. Do I take any action or offend those people in any way? Nope. I live by a strict "live and let live" philosophy (most of the time). Let them live the way they want to, it's their basic given right as with every human being.

You, on the other hand, feel that there's a need to openly insult another person because you disagree with said person's point of view. Not only are you rude and immature, but you also prove being a hypocrit.

Then again, Peregrine insisting on his point of view being the only correct one, hands down, isn't any news to the forums.

 Ouze wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
If that makes the person in question happier, it is good I guess, but couldn't the same result have been achieved in a more 'natural' way?

What 'natural' way are you talking about?

The way in which a person is born seems the natural one to me.

Do I presume you also disagree with fixing a baby's split palate, or an omphalocele, or heart defects?

That's a poor analogy honestly.

cleft lips and split palates and the other things you mentioned are birth defects caused by the fetus not developing properly.

Someone being born a man or woman wasn't an accident, they developed properly from the gametes that made up the embryo.

Nope. I live by a strict "live and let live" philosophy.

Except that you don't follow your own philosophy it appears.

I don't think that telling your fellow Dakkanauts that they are as delusional as people that believe in rainbow unicorns and that they are in deep need of psychological counseling falls under "let live".

blaktoof wrote:

Someone being born a man or woman wasn't an accident, they developed properly from the gametes that made up the embryo.

How about sickle cell, or colorblindness?

 daedalus wrote:
Gender is NOT an identity

Is black an identity? Identities exist because someone identifies with them. Someone can have multiple identities that make up the whole of their person;

I am straight, white, Christian, male, liberal on social policies, moderate in economic policies, a gamer, a historian, a writer, a self described professional hipster, and damned sexy.

Each of those things can be taken as a separate identity that makes up the whole of my person. Naturally, I think so people identify with some aspects of themselves more strong than others. I care a lot more about history, Christianity, and writing than I do about my general political leanings. I identify much more with those than I do politics. My identity as white or male has never really been an issue for me, so I can't even say I don't care about them nor do I care about them. As issues they seem so distant to me in a normal sense. That doesn't mean though that a gay man feels the same, especially when someone who identifies a lot with their Christianness decides to tell them to go to hell for kissing their boyfriend. Or worse, a gay man who is Christian and struggles to reconcile the beliefs of those around with what being Christian means with another aspect of themselves.

I just don't understand people, and really would like to.

Wouldn't we all

 d-usa wrote:


I don't think that telling your fellow Dakkanauts that they are as delusional as people that believe in rainbow unicorns and that they are in deep need of psychological counseling falls under "let live".

I never said that.

To me, non-binary gender is on about the same level of validity as rainbow unicorns.

"To me". If you disagree, that's fine.

anyways...

Non-binary gender is a catchall category for people who do not identify as man or woman, but identify as both or somewhere inbetween.

Maybe a guy likes acting like a woman, and feels girl and wears dresses and has a beard but prefers to only have sexual relations with women.

it also is a blanket umbrella term for people who feel like they do not belong to either gender.

Also it covers people who are "genderfluid" and their gender changes from random time to random time, for whatever reason.

Also its a label for people who dislike gender labels. yes I realize the hypocrisy in that statement but it exists in some persons.

All of these are based on both genetic, and environmental reasons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 daedalus wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

Someone being born a man or woman wasn't an accident, they developed properly from the gametes that made up the embryo.

How about sickle cell, or colorblindness?

I am colorblind.

Although both of those things are "bad", they were not accidents and were basically the "map" or "blueprints" from the DNA and are not in error, nor are they birth defects.

Bad genes getting passed along isn't an error, it is what "nature" intended.

Are you implying that being male or female sexed is a birth defect?

 Sigvatr wrote:

You either are a man or a woman. Or in dire need of psychological counceling.

Not "let live"...

To sigvatr's point, and d-usa and others arguing with him....

Whether you agree with his stance on this issue, would you say that "most" people who identify with a gender not of their biological parts, or who have incomplete parts of multiple genders, etc. do "need" psychological help? Isn't seeing a shrink part of any gender reassignment procedure?

Truth is, a ton of people "need" help from some form of shrink or another, and for a variety of reasons. All of them are equally valid..

blaktoof wrote:

Are you implying that being male or female sexed is a birth defect?

Without trying to put too many words in his mouth, as I am reading what was written here..... He's saying that being male or female is the normal state of things. Being "unhappy" or "unable to identify with" the gender that your genetics gave you is NOT a defect, it's a mental health issue.

here is a "helpful" image for non-binary gender.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:


Whether you agree with his stance on this issue, would you say that "most" people who identify with a gender not of their biological parts, or who have incomplete parts of multiple genders, etc. do "need" psychological help?

Generally speaking, the philosophy of psychologists is that if you can function in society normally, then you don't need help (maybe it'll be a good idea, but not necessarily needed). Most people with phobias could probably use a psychologist or therapist to get over their phobia, but unless its debilitating they can function without treatment. Typically, feeling like a woman while being a man doesn't prevent one from being functional in society.

Isn't seeing a shrink part of any gender reassignment procedure?

Yes but not because they need help. it's part of the process of ensuring that someone getting sex reassignment is mentally prepared for the procedure and the changes that will come to their life following it, as well to cover the doctor's back and ensure that there isn't an underlying condition effecting the patient's judgement. It's really more of a formality these days than an actual necessity.

My point is not really that you have to agree that non-binary gender is a thing. You can have the opinion that it's not real, and you can even explain why you think that. You just have to explain how without violating Rule #1.

Saying that people are rainbow unicorn crazy and need psychological counseling to confirm with what you think is normal is violating Rule #1. It is rude, insulting, and directly affects all the non-binary gender Dakkanauts that are reading this thread. Trying to handwave that away with " that's just my opinion" doesn't work.

Thinking about the impact that our words will have on our fellow Dakkanauts shouldn't be that complicated.

I have a very narrow view point on topics such as these.
I don't really understand the feelings/thoughts people have when they can't identify with their actualy gender so I really just don't make any judgements on it.
I think its weird but at the same time I understand that its not something I understand so I cannot react harshely to something I can't even comprehend.

My thoughts on homosexaulity/asexual/transgender, pretty much anything that the "norm" follow that same pattern, I don't understand it so I don't judge. Would look foolish for commenting on something I've never experienced.

1. Are you hurting me? No.

2. Are you hurting other people? No.

3. Are you happier doing whatever you're doing? Yes.

Carry on.

feth I love living in a liberal democracy where the rights of individuals to express themselves in nonharmful ways are not impeded by the dogma and tyranny of others.




NEXT!

Yes but not because they need help. it's part of the process of ensuring that someone getting sex reassignment is mentally prepared for the procedure and the changes that will come to their life following it, as well to cover the doctor's back and ensure that there isn't an underlying condition effecting the patient's judgement. It's really more of a formality these days than an actual necessity.

not quite.

the psych eval has to be performed by a psychologist experienced with gender disorders, and their eval has to be examined by another mental health professional to verify it as valid. They have to be diagnosed with not just having feelings, but having the transexualism condition as described by the DSM-IV, also known as gender identity disorder.

The first step involves making certain that there are no other psychological or psychiatric co-existing conditions that cause severe distress for the person, and in some cases may be the true cause of the desire to change sex. Examples might be: schizophrenia, substance abuse, homosexuality that is not psychologically acceptable to the person, and borderline personality disorder.

Next in the psychological treatment is to determine the emotional stability of the person with Gender Identity Disorder. While many have experienced extreme emotional discomfort from having to appear as a member of the sex opposite of the one they believe themselves to be psychologically, it is important that there be basic emotional stability present before the medical procedures can begin.

The above processes should normally take a year or more to evaluate.


There are many people who think they have gender identity disorder, or "decided" they had it when in fact they had other psychological problems. In some cases they are not allowed gender reassignment surgery, and in some they convince someone that they should get it and they often regret it after.

http://www.sexchangeregret.com/research

the above link is a site hosted by someone who had a sex change. There are many people who had "other" psychological issues and thought they had gender identity disorder and regretted their decision, and there are other people who had gender identity disorder, and they had the sex change, and it wasn't enough and that made them worse. So sometimes gender "reassignment" is actually a bad idea.

I've got a buddy I went to high school with. In HS, he was a she, and id known him since we we're wee young ones. In high school his sexual orientation flitted between straight, bi, and lesbian (not the same as gender, but it's what we had to work with as young kids) We went to different colleges and lost contact for a few years. I got a friend request from a dude with his last name and thought it was a cousin. Did some Facebook stalking and discovered that he was going through some serious gak involving body dysphoria and almost had to drop out of school. He started seeing a shrink and dealt with his issues and started to identify as male, legally changed his name, etc.. his parents don't really understand it, but support him the same.

As MGS said, is it making him happier? Yeah it is, though he has admitted he hasn't gotten the hang of peeing standing up.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
1. Are you hurting me? No.

2. Are you hurting other people? No.

3. Are you happier doing whatever you're doing? Yes.

Carry on.

feth I love living in a liberal democracy where the rights of individuals to express themselves in nonharmful ways are not impeded by the dogma and tyranny of others.




NEXT!

This is pretty much my comment all things of this type. Does it impact me in any way? No? Good, have at it.