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Anyone else tired of the liberal use of the label WAAC? I mean let's face it. Most people aren't WAaC. They don't cheat etc. We get labeled WAAC because we enjoy bringing good units? Seems like the only people who get upset about good units on tebtable are casual people who lack the ability to adapt.

The army doesn't take crossbows and muskets to war... They bring tier best or close to their best. Why should this be different. Because I like bringing venoms, stompas, baneblades, and punishers with pask inside doesn't make me a TFG or a WAAC player.

I wouldnt say lack the ability. I could become a tournament winner by simply buying the latest and greatest army, pay someone to paint them and bam I can win like nuts. I can, right now do this if I want.

Most people choose not to. Because winning at 40k, is quite simply, as easy as what i said above.

As long as you have the better units, and point your guns at the right targets, you will win.

I choose not to, I dont lack the ability to.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Anyone else tired of the liberal use of the label WAAC? I mean let's face it. Most people aren't WAaC. They don't cheat etc. We get labeled WAAC because we enjoy bringing good units? Seems like the only people who get upset about good units on tebtable are casual people who lack the ability to adapt.

The army doesn't take crossbows and muskets to war... They bring tier best or close to their best. Why should this be different. Because I like bringing venoms, stompas, baneblades, and punishers with pask inside doesn't make me a TFG or a WAAC player.

Except that this game is a social one and thus, your opponent's enjoyment is also important.

If you bring a top end highly optimised list to what is nominally a "friendly gaming night", the it's only respectful to at least give your opponent a head's up, as the majority of players typically don't bring their 'Tournament' dominating lists to a basic friendly game.
Then there's also those who can't adapt due to a more limited model collection for example. Nothing wrong with toning your power list down when up against a newer player who's only got a basic force built out of a pair of DV sets.

The best way to avoid being labeled TFG/WaaC's is to bring a couple of lists and perhaps play slightly smaller games such as 1500pts instead of 1850 or 2k. One list can be your soul crushing power list, while the other is a bit softer and perhaps uses a unit or three that you would normally avoid because on paper they maybe don't seem quite so 'uber.
Hell, you might even find a way to make that supposedly "unworthy" unit into a real monster!

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Anyone else tired of the liberal use of the label WAAC?

Yeah getting sick of labels not speciificly the waac one ether

BUT perhaps if you are getting labeled a waac for bringing a very strong list with good models to a friendly casual game you might want to start toneing down said lists if everyone around you is labeling you as a WAAC or a TFG.

Ya know, it being a social game and all where you should be discussing with your opponent what kinda game you wana play rather than a 1 sided seal clubapalooza.



Ether that or start your own club or group that has no issues with a very competitive balls to the walls no holds bared game.

Oh, this again. If I remember the previous thread, it wasn't just your list, DMB, but your entire attitude about the game that earned you that distinction.

WAAC doesn't literally mean WAAC.

RAW (haha.) WAAC would mean shanking my opponent so he can no longer play and I'd win automatically

WAAC means bending the rules as far as you can and making the game purposefully unfun for your opponent.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I wouldnt say lack the ability. I could become a tournament winner by simply buying the latest and greatest army, pay someone to paint them and bam I can win like nuts. I can, right now do this if I want.

Most people choose not to. Because winning at 40k, is quite simply, as easy as what i said above.

As long as you have the better units, and point your guns at the right targets, you will win.

I choose not to, I dont lack the ability to.

Calling total BS right here. In my area (USA South-East) you had better know your sh*t, we see plenty of netlists and the like at events and yet, its generally the same group of people slugging it out on the top tables, often with armies that don't make a lot of sense to newer players. I hate when people think winning a tournament is simply about buying the latest and greatest, when skill still plays a huge roll. Events like the ATC and ETC really bring that fact home.

 Sigvatr wrote:
WAAC means bending the rules as far as you can and making the game purposefully unfun for your opponent.

That's how I interpret it. Tabletop games are about fun, and you bear some responsibility for the enjoyment that your opponent gets out of the game as well. Sometimes, you and your opponent want to play a cutthroat game of 40k, bringing really competitive lists, abusing the rules as much as possible, and playing dirty. That's fine, and can be fun! But a WAAC player does that all the time, regardless of what sort of game his opponent wants to play.

WAAC/TFG is not about the army you bring but more about the attitude.

 gardeth wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
I wouldnt say lack the ability. I could become a tournament winner by simply buying the latest and greatest army, pay someone to paint them and bam I can win like nuts. I can, right now do this if I want.

Most people choose not to. Because winning at 40k, is quite simply, as easy as what i said above.

As long as you have the better units, and point your guns at the right targets, you will win.

I choose not to, I dont lack the ability to.

Calling total BS right here. In my area (USA South-East) you had better know your sh*t, we see plenty of netlists and the like at events and yet, its generally the same group of people slugging it out on the top tables, often with armies that don't make a lot of sense to newer players. I hate when people think winning a tournament is simply about buying the latest and greatest, when skill still plays a huge roll. Events like the ATC and ETC really bring that fact home.

Last tournament I went to (playing a different game) I walked past all the 40k armies on display saying "typical... typical..." in my head. There where a few interesting ones that werent net lists, but when I looked at the scores after the event, they werent very high up there.

I know how to play the game, all I need to compete is the best units with the best combos and some guy to paint them for me. No matter how good I am at the game, my usual lists would not cut it in a competitive environment.

Also knowing your in 40k, is simply knowing what to shoot with what, and knowing the rules. (in my opinion). There isnt much depth in 40k, which is part of the fun of it really.

Of course, thats simply my opinion I guess.

 Happyjew wrote:
WAAC/TFG is not about the army you bring but more about the attitude.

Came here to type this. Being a true WAAC player or a true TFG is almost always nothing to do with what you put on the table and almost always everything to do with your attitude to a) the hobby and b) the other player(s).

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Anyone else tired of the liberal use of the label WAAC? I mean let's face it. Most people aren't WAaC. They don't cheat etc. We get labeled WAAC because we enjoy bringing good units? Seems like the only people who get upset about good units on tebtable are casual people who lack the ability to adapt.

The army doesn't take crossbows and muskets to war... They bring tier best or close to their best. Why should this be different. Because I like bringing venoms, stompas, baneblades, and punishers with pask inside doesn't make me a TFG or a WAAC player.

Doing it with malice, and constsntly, and then being a dick about it, and then being all anal about every mistake the opponent makes would make you TFG. And being a horrible person and not bothering with courtesy just to win better, or not going easy on a first timer would make you WAAC, but bringing effective units just makes you competitive.

I'd keep the two terms, but advise everyone to actually think about what they mean.

*Sees who OP is...*

WAAC players should probably be called "Rule Benders"

 Psienesis wrote:
Oh, this again. If I remember the previous thread, it wasn't just your list, DMB, but your entire attitude about the game that earned you that distinction.

You remember this too huh?

The second thread in a week Daly that's been eerily similar to threads you've created in the past.

You know what the definition of insanity is don't you?

But, to indulge you, I have the experience, game knowledge and army (daemons) that I could put together a list that I'm comfortable would range between beating the best players most of the time to utterly annihilating the poorer players all of the time at my club, not because I consider myself some sort of über player, but because fortune has dictated that the random GW balance wheel stopped on the army I have chosen to collect and play (and had done so before the last WD update, let alone the new Codex.)

I choose not to for three reasons - I spend a lot of time painting units, and I believe one collects an army, not a list, so I have units I'm very happy with their paint jobs on who I like to give game time, even if they're not optimal. I have respect for my opponents, we have one player who insists, despite our best efforts, bringing top tier lists, or riffs thereon, to what is essentially a friendly club, I know what I think of him, and I don't want people to think that way about me, and finally, I enjoy trying to orchestrate a grand strategy from a variety of units with differing abilities more than some sort of mindless point and click list which just spams the best units in a book.

But, in the end, WAAC is just shorthand, just like Fluff Nazi, White Knight or Hater, to summarise a particular attitude or viewpoint. It isn't necessarily accurate, but it does the job without paragraphs of exposition. WAAC players are simply people who try too hard to win a meaningless game with nothing riding on the outcome that should be played for fun.

WAAC is commonly attached to TFG because of the similarities in attitude.

Being a better player than your opponent doesn't make anyone a WAAC or TFG. Those tags appear when certain things are abused, like measuring and rules lawyering. Good players do none of this and it doesn't matter what their attitude is, if they play by the rules then so what?

TFG's are trolls, plain and simple. They're donkey-caves and generally fall into the WAAC category because of their attitude towards competitions.

WAAC is a broad term used too lightly to describe players that don't exhibit ANY of the required features; if someone outplays you using WHATEVER army, suck it up and shake their hand, say 'good game' and move on. They talk about how much you suck and make comments on your mother's promiscuity? NOW they're TFG. They argue that some arbitrary rule that wasn't update via FAQ's or in the newest set of rules, but BLATANTLY breaks a unit? NOW they're WAAC.

It's not that hard to make the distinction.

He seems to make these threads, get banned, then come back and make the same threads

Fun games are ones with balanced army lists fighting battle that either side can win and both parties are making actions and reactions.

If your bringing the heat with 3 wraith knights and seer council on bikes vs somebody using a fluffy list with ork buggies and killa kanz then it might just end up a stomp and two in satisfied players (if you find one sided stomping people fun then might deserve the TFG label). Know when to pull your punches and play a even game so in the end everyone has fun.

I have to admit: I've been TFG before. I've called people up on tiny rules issues and argued about stuff I read in YMDC. I have to admit now being more than a little ashamed.

Luckily I think I now know that doesn't matter and I like to think that I'm much more chilled out about these things - particularly in casual pick-up games.

I do like looking at netlists and seeing what combinations people come up with but I'm in no way a powergamer. I did just buy TWC, but despite owning IG since 5th I don't own a Vendetta.

WAAC: Win At All Costs.

When you do what the name implies it sticks to you.

ex: Bring a list that is designed in every aspect to crush an opponents list using whatever thing is currently "the best" or "most broken". Should something be challenged, such as your units abilities or rules or even something as simple as your opponent (in your eyes) cheating by placing his unit a mm to far in movement, arguing them only if it might prevent your victory or slow it down. IN short, If your attitude is "If I don't win, no one does"

i think WAAC is usually reserved for that person who's army is based solely around some unit(s) that have some weird interaction with a rule that when you interpret it in some "special way" in relation to that other rule lets you do crazy thing x that wins the game more or less. Then on top of that, instead of discussing before the game the bizarre interpretation of the combination of rules from different sections/books/faq that is no longer existant that let you do "crazy thing x" you wait until you are going to do it and then tell your opponent because you -want- to argue with them about the crazy rule and you are all prepared with which page you need to reference to which page in both books...

that is the WAAC guy.

TFG is just some guy with any list that no one wants to play due to social reasons.

I also think the WAAC label is thrown around too much. Competitive != WAAC. To those of you that say the people without more choice in models deserve a break, what about the other side of the coin? I tend to make a strong 1850-2000 point tournament style list, buy those models and that's it. What if all I have to choose from are wraithknights and wave serpent spam because I planned my army ahead of time and decided not to waste time and money on less effective units? You might as well call the Patriots WAAC donkey caves and seal clubbers when they play Tom Brady against the Bucs. 40k games have a winner and a loser, therefore they are competitive games. If you don't like getting tabled, make a better list or go play D&D. I guess I'm just lucky to have a meta where unbound and LOW are standard, we play RAW and everyone brings their best list. I've tabled people many times and been tabled myself too. I had fun either way and typically learned far more about my army by getting my ass kicked. Now I feel confident that I can take on c'tans and revenant titans without getting tabled. There's a counter to everything in the game. If you don't want to run it or can't afford it, you might just have to deal with getting tabled sometimes. This is no different from racing, sports, MTG or anything else competitive. If you aren't willing to put as much time/money/effort in as the other guy, you will probably lose.

Engine of War wrote:WAAC: Win At All Costs.

When you do what the name implies it sticks to you.

ex: Bring a list that is designed in every aspect to crush an opponents list using whatever thing is currently "the best" or "most broken". Should something be challenged, such as your units abilities or rules or even something as simple as your opponent (in your eyes) cheating by placing his unit a mm to far in movement, arguing them only if it might prevent your victory or slow it down. IN short, If your attitude is "If I don't win, no one does"

Like bringing 2 Destroyer lords, 2 x 5 man warrior squads, 1 or 2 C'tan shards and a few other nasty Necron stuff to a game against someone who is having their first game of 40K? (Yes, I know someone who did that.)
Same person also challenges almost everything and of course "It's been FAQd if it's not there.", but of course didn't have an FAQ to prove it (for the record, he was pulling gak out of his arse).

OT: I'm not gonna give two Emperors if you are a few MM over with movement, I won't make you tape the damn tape measure to the board and measure it perfectly (though, it would be funny to make *certain* players do it), but if you're gonna go some inches over, that's a different story. I won't yell or shame you, I'll just let you know that I think that was a few inches too far, and ask if you can re-measure it (I am sometimes mistaken, honestly). Of course, if you know a board section is 24" and you've deployed on the 12" line, there's no way you're leaving that tile with a 12" move (I have had a few people "accidentally" go a good 3-6" over...)

WAAC is like a two sided coin. There are two sides.

The first side is the tournament player. He plays WAAC because there is something at stake, be it money/prizes/models, etc. These are the guys who want to win, and don't really care if how they win is considered bullgak or not. And in these cases, I don't care how they play, as long as they play legit and have good sportsmanship. You don't go to tournaments to lose. Do you?

Then the other side is the worst of the two. In my experience, the first side of WAAC won't often bring his tournament lists to friendly games unless he happens to be a natural jerk, or if he wants to test how it works. But THESE WAAC guys will bring the most powerful and stupid lists their minds can make up, and have NO care about how the other player feels about it. They will whine the hardest when you refuse to play what is generally considered an unfun list to face and isn't worth the time putting models on the table for. They also are the strictest lawyers of the rules, and even in a friendly game, will do their best to ensure you play "right". This is also known as TFG.

Its often rare in my area I find the second side of the coin. I've met and played against tournament players/winners in 40k a couple times, and in other tabletop games in general. Just because when it comes to tournaments they play to win, doesn't mean they need that label all the time. They know how to play casual and for fun just as well as the rest of us.

But as a disclaimer, there are always exceptions to every rule.

I think it should be about fun more than WAAC, sucking up a nurgle bike lord into a tesseract labyrinth (which happened a local even not too long ago) was funny and very lighthearted on both sides, but during the same event a guy brought in a tournament ready tyranid list just to win, It sorta just brought the mood down that everyone who brought something fun and new would just get demolished by flyrants.

Just enjoy it, you win some you lose some crapola happens.

To make a MTG-analogy: WAAC is when you bring your Stax-deck to a casual multiplayer game with friends.
Some lists, in both games, are perfectly fine for a tournament where the goal is to win and not to have fun with other people.
But for a friendly casual game they are anti-fun.

I also see it as WAAC when you try to abuse every possible RAW-issue to gain a benefit over the opponent.

 ChaosxVoid wrote:
I think it should be about fun more than WAAC, sucking up a nurgle bike lord into a tesseract labyrinth (which happened a local even not too long ago) was funny and very lighthearted on both sides, but during the same event a guy brought in a tournament ready tyranid list just to win, It sorta just brought the mood down that everyone who brought something fun and new would just get demolished by flyrants.

Just enjoy it, you win some you lose some crapola happens.

By definition, that's how the casual game should be. But the issue is whenever a game has the potential to have any sort of competitive aspect, it brings out a whole different sort of beast that can ruin good mojo. It luckily doesn't happen often around here, though the only game that gets that sort of vibe is often Magic (Shocker!). While I love me some cardboard crack just as much as I do plastic crack, I had to exit Magic even on a casual basis. I played strictly Commander format, which was designed for casual, wonky deck builds. But once the local shop decided to run tournaments for it, that format lost all its fun. Even durign casual games, people would run their tuned tournament ready deck against people who either just made their deck, or had the least competitive build around because it's supposed to be FUN. Needless to say, the good vibes soon vanished and now Commander is basically DEAD in our area.

But bringing a Tournament ready list is hardly a WAAC thing to do.

Probably more along the lines of a TFG.

a WAAC goes far beyond just bringing club lists to a seal game.

its the type of person that will literally bring loaded dice, extra cards up there sleeves, make stuff up to get an advantage, or set fire to your car forcing you to FF just for the win.

 Desubot wrote:
But bringing a Tournament ready list is hardly a WAAC thing to do.

Probably more along the lines of a TFG.

a WAAC goes far beyond just bringing club lists to a seal game.

its the type of person that will literally bring loaded dice, extra cards up there sleeves, make stuff up to get an advantage, or set fire to your car forcing you to FF just for the win.

A little over the top, but fair enough. I think that's a little unrealistic, and out of the scope. Anyone who does all that is a complete sociopath and needs help. Or be thrown in jail for the last part. Forever.

Edit: I also believe the conversation is about players who will do whatever they can to win a game, without being an outright cheater/criminal.

OFF TOPIC:

Ahhh so I can get onto a discussions thread if its the latest commented on and I can click on it on the 'home' forums page... but still can't get into the 40k general discussions subforum. It says it's 'down for maintenance', but others (like you guys) seem to be able to get onto it. I've tried logging off/on, and can't even access it as a guest. Anyone had this problem before? Know what's going on?

I post this here because it's not been seen in a few hours on nuts and bolts (aside from sigvatr - thanks for the reply fella), and this is the only thread I can get on in the sub-forum.
Anyone else had issues today? Know how I can fix it?