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2014/08/29 16:18:36
Subject: Sarkeesian driven out of home by online abuse and death threats
Ashiraya wrote: The splash image is a key part of the first impression, and the first impression is the most important. If said image is an implied insult, what do you expect the reaction to be?
Any reasonable discussion requires its participants to look beyond first impressions.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/29 16:19:33
Yeah, there's nothing respectable about that video from first perspective (and I cannot look at videos where I am currently, will have to watch later). At least Sarkesian is intelligent enough to NOT do that for her videos.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/29 16:19:47
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/08/29 16:21:06
Subject: Sarkeesian driven out of home by online abuse and death threats
Melissia wrote: At least Sarkesian is intelligent enough to NOT do that for her videos.
It's not a matter of being intelligent; it's a matter of good will and sincerity. Sarkeesian does not make videos to attack someone; the vid in question is made to attack Sarkeesian.
Ashiraya wrote: The splash image is a key part of the first impression, and the first impression is the most important. If said image is an implied insult, what do you expect the reaction to be?
Any reasonable discussion requires its participants to look beyond first impressions.
Of course, but the first impression also says a lot about one's intentions.
It is uncommon (and would be rather illogical) to have a splash image that says X and a video that says Y.
But this is all just nonsense. My point is: Having implied insults on your splash image is not recommended.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/29 16:25:07
Slarg232 wrote: It would actually be highly hilarious to go gunning through a chippendale strip club XD
I said mix gender!
squidhills wrote: There's a stage in a Duke Nukem game where all the strippers in the club are male.
...and clones of Duke. It's kind of unsettling, actually.
Oh, fun and unusual!
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/08/29 16:26:22
Subject: Sarkeesian driven out of home by online abuse and death threats
Melissia wrote: At least Sarkesian is intelligent enough to NOT do that for her videos.
It's not a matter of being intelligent; it's a matter of good will and sincerity. Sarkeesian does not make videos to attack someone; the vid in question is made to attack Sarkeesian.
It doesn't attack her at all, if you want to comment on the video, you have to watch it first.
How about this one where she gives the impression all men should be in prison for playing mario.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/29 16:26:36
2014/08/29 16:28:38
Subject: Sarkeesian driven out of home by online abuse and death threats
Melissia wrote: At least Sarkesian is intelligent enough to NOT do that for her videos.
It's not a matter of being intelligent; it's a matter of good will and sincerity. Sarkeesian does not make videos to attack someone; the vid in question is made to attack Sarkeesian.
Not really; it's attacking her points and her methodology, the only part that actively seeks to attack her is the thumbnail.
If you really think about it, his point is correct; Tomb Raider, any female outcasts? No. Metroid, any female enemies? No. Wet, any female enemies? Only the bosses, all the dudes are there to be killed. Remember Me? Only people to give the main character any sort of pause are the other two ladies. Bayonetta? Only female is your rival, dudes are just kinda there. Whenever you see a chick in an action role, it's 100% dispossable dudes, with only the boss being female or male.
You actually COULD put a video together using her logic and his arguments and have it work the same way as her videos. It just wouldn't have the feminist backing that Sarks do.
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
2014/08/29 16:29:56
Subject: Sarkeesian driven out of home by online abuse and death threats
sirlynchmob wrote: It doesn't attack her at all, if you want to comment on the video, you have to watch it first.
I did watch it. It is not a sincere argument. It is a parody -- a caricature of feminists generally and explicitly an attempt to discredit Sarkeesian by falsely equating her arguments to nonsense.
sirlynchmob wrote: How about this one where she gives the impression all men should be in prison for playing mario.
Melissia wrote: At least Sarkesian is intelligent enough to NOT do that for her videos.
It's not a matter of being intelligent; it's a matter of good will and sincerity. Sarkeesian does not make videos to attack someone; the vid in question is made to attack Sarkeesian.
Not even a very good attack. If it were me, I'd have a low cut top, some nice earrings, and my Hipster glasses on and I'd talk in a exaggerated faux-womanly voice
More seriously though; we already know about this trope and it doesn't even directly address anything she actually said. Heaven forbid both stereotypes bepresent at the same time XD Maybe men should talk about that instead of wasting away their time chasing Anita around. I don't like her either but come on guys. It's old news there are better things to do with our time
Given the alien physiology of basically all the enemies in Metroid I'm not sure we can really know. I've not seen much evidence for the gender of the non-boss enemies either way. Like what the heck is the sex of this thing?
or these things:
or these things:
I sure as heck don't know. If you've been sexing all the enemies in Metroid as male by default and only as female when they're expressly called out as such, that's on you.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/08/29 16:47:48
2014/08/29 16:45:35
Subject: Re:Sarkeesian driven out of home by online abuse and death threats
Seaward wrote:Probably because most people don't give a gak either way.
Riiight. Like "most people" don't give a gak about the use of pronouns, yet end up in an endless argument about why they shouldn't be changed.
Or like "most people" don't give a gak about the portrayal of women in games, yet we have these threads here on dakka.
Also, lol @ calling Ahtman's argument a stawman after posting your opinion on BioWare games
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:Then do yourself and everybody else here a favour and go WATCH them. Second hand information does not make an informed opinion.
Why? I'm not judging Sarkeesian's videos, I am judging the reactions to them. Which as it looks like consists of about 40% namecalling, 35% slander, 20% baseless claims and maybe 5% actual criticism. And the last part of the discussion is obviously getting drowned out.
I find the public's response to the videos far more interesting and revealing than those videos could ever be. I already have my own opinion on the issues she's talking about anyways.
Grundz wrote:to be fair, its only important to most of the people in this thread when its a woman pretending to be victimized, otherwise it isn't.
Sigvatr wrote:The latter.
The Grumpy Eldar wrote:Then she shouldn't whine about this being used in games. That's a choise made by the developers of a game, not by some whiny feminist.
See, posts like these are why we can't have a proper debate on these issues on dakka. And those videos.
Too many people only interested in escalating the conflict and offending and/or ridiculing the other side with a patronising or outright insulting choice of words rather than posting arguments.
It's disturbing, to say the least.
I'm beginning to be of the opinion that any thread that deals with the topic of women, sexism or feminism on dakka should be locked on purpose, because this community does not seem capable of discussing it without resorting to the above.
It's not leading anywhere, and it's just getting everyone frustrated. Again and again.
2014/08/29 16:47:23
Subject: Sarkeesian driven out of home by online abuse and death threats
sirlynchmob wrote: It doesn't attack her at all, if you want to comment on the video, you have to watch it first.
I did watch it. It is not a sincere argument. It is a parody -- a caricature of feminists generally and explicitly an attempt to discredit Sarkeesian by falsely equating her arguments to nonsense.
sirlynchmob wrote: How about this one where she gives the impression all men should be in prison for playing mario.
she has no research, and no studies to back up her opinions, her arguments are nonsense, that's the point. It is a very sincere argument or do you think men should be stabbed?
Why watch her video? the splash page was rude and insulting, so therefore her video must be rude and insulting.
If it was a video about drug abuse, we could see why mario is in jail for doing to many mushrooms.
in a video about feminism, why would mario be in jail? probably for pointing out that their methodology is flawed and more opinions than facts.
I couldn't watch it, the way she drones on and rambles gave me a headache.
2014/08/29 16:48:37
Subject: Sarkeesian driven out of home by online abuse and death threats
Given the alien physiology of basically all the enemies in Metroid I'm not sure we can really know. I've not seen much evidence for the gender of the non-boss enemies either way. Like what the heck is the sex of this thing?
or these things:
or these things:
I sure as heck don't know. If you've been sexing all the enemies in Metroid as male as default and only as female when they're expressly called out as such, that's on you.
It's a fair assumption to make; there is a trope that men are the expendable gender, after all.
You could argue that Metroid is above that, but even it had to specifically call out it's protagonist as being a chick.
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
2014/08/29 16:53:39
Subject: Sarkeesian driven out of home by online abuse and death threats
If you are unwilling to actually read the posts you're quoting-- all of it-- I don't really feel any obligation to respond to you. What I referred to when I made that statement is shown quite clearly in the top of the quote pyramid. Telling someone to "quit whining" is the same as telling them to shut up.
Excuse me?
Melissia wrote: Claiming that a person should shut up because you don't like what they have to say is an attempt, however weak, to silence it. And that's what you said..
You quite clearly singled me out as having said that I want Anita to be silenced.
Saying "You're [Anita] wrong about the/some of the, points you make" is not the same as "Quit whining and shutup".
Case in point...When Anita criticised Hitman, for supposedly creating a male power fantasy in which players are encouraged to get sexual gratification out of beating up and killing strippers in a club and stuff their bodies into a chest...[Parpahrased, badly - im in a hurry] ...
That was a LIE on her behalf. The game does not encourage that, it actively discourages it by punishing players. The aim is to pass through undetected, points are deducted for killing innocents. Very few Lets Players behave in the way she claimed the game encourages them to, and there were accusations that the footage showing a player abusing dead women was in fact made by Anita herself, and not plagiarised from another channel (as perher usual MO).
If any players actually DO behave that way, that reflects on the gamers themselves, not the game which actively penalises them for it.
2014/08/29 16:59:04
Subject: Re:Sarkeesian driven out of home by online abuse and death threats
Seaward wrote:Probably because most people don't give a gak either way.
Riiight. Like "most people" don't give a gak about the use of pronouns, yet end up in an endless argument about why they shouldn't be changed.
Or like "most people" don't give a gak about the portrayal of women in games, yet we have these threads here on dakka.
We have three threads on Dakka at the same time all talking about the same topic, in fact.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/08/29 16:59:34
Subject: Sarkeesian driven out of home by online abuse and death threats
Seaward wrote:Probably because most people don't give a gak either way.
Riiight. Like "most people" don't give a gak about the use of pronouns, yet end up in an endless argument about why they shouldn't be changed.
Or like "most people" don't give a gak about the portrayal of women in games, yet we have these threads here on dakka.
We have three threads on Dakka at the same time all talking about the same topic, in fact.
And if that doesn't prove it's an issue that deserves more than a dismissive eyeroll, nothing does.
2014/08/29 17:07:56
Subject: Re:Sarkeesian driven out of home by online abuse and death threats
Melissia wrote: We have three threads on Dakka at the same time all talking about the same topic, in fact.
Three? I thought there was only two. Where is the third?
Slarg232 wrote: It's a fair assumption to make; there is a trope that men are the expendable gender, after all.
Actually, it is more an issue of male by default, linked to the gender signifier stuff that I mentioned in this thread or the other.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/08/29 17:09:54
Subject: Sarkeesian driven out of home by online abuse and death threats
I didn't stutter. It was abundantly clear which post I was pointing at when I made that comment. My keeping it at the top of the quote pyramid was intentional, not accidental-- it was the crux of that particular branch of the conversation.
Since you still seem confused, I will quote it for you once again
Thus, my post saying "Telling someone "quit whining" is the same as telling someone 'shut up'." That is what I have been talking about ever since that part of the conversation branched off in the first place, since the entire reason I posted taht in the first place was to raise an objection to that post.
The rhetorical trick of first trying to defend statements like that and then asserting "but I/none of us/no one never said that" remains unconvincing.
Melissia wrote: We have three threads on Dakka at the same time all talking about the same topic, in fact.
Three? I thought there was only two. Where is the third?
One in off topic, plus this thread, plus the thread where they linked to TotalBiscuit's little speech on the same topic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/29 17:11:09
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/08/29 17:12:38
Subject: Sarkeesian driven out of home by online abuse and death threats
Like she said: the dehumanization caused by objectification, inevitably leads us to disposability.
I was actually referring to your argument that either I think that parody is sincere or I must think that men should be stabbed. Do you think that is a sincere argument.
As to the idea that men are often portrayed as disposable in media and that men are considered disposable in everyday life, I think that is a real thing. I don't see how pointing it out disproves anything that Sarkeesian has ever argued.
Melissia wrote: We are discussing Anita Sarkesian's videos, and that was the argument that she made-- she spoke of trends, gave examples to prove her point,et cetera. Someone objected to her making that argument while she herself wore makeup...
Having gone back over the last few pages, I see where i overlooked this part of the argument. Now things make more sense.
Emperor's Eagles (undergoing Chapter reorganization)
Caledonian 95th (undergoing regimental reorganization)
Thousands Sons (undergoing Warband re--- wait, are any of my 40K armies playable?)
2014/08/29 17:14:36
Subject: Sarkeesian driven out of home by online abuse and death threats
Yeah, the thread is kind of going off in a different direction every five to ten posts...
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/08/29 17:18:07
Subject: Sarkeesian driven out of home by online abuse and death threats
Melissia wrote: plus the thread where they linked to TotalBiscuit's little speech on the same topic.
That is the one I was missing.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/08/29 17:19:24
Subject: Sarkeesian driven out of home by online abuse and death threats
LordofHats wrote: If the goal was to show her method is flawed... Well he failed miserably
As I mentioned, his goal was to attack Sarkeesian. And that is the most fundamental difference between his vid and ones like it on the one hand and Sarkeesian's on the other.
Melissia wrote: Yeah, the thread is kind of going off in a different direction every five to ten posts...
Twitch plays PokeDakka !
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
I am serious.
Emperor's Eagles (undergoing Chapter reorganization)
Caledonian 95th (undergoing regimental reorganization)