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Ok, I've been wondering, has there ever been any hint of how homosexuality is treated anywhere in the Imperium?

Or more specifically, is there any GW & BL (and maybe FFG, with a grain of salt) fluff that shows whether it is generally seen as heresy for some one to participate in homosexual activities? Is the homosexual identity (as in, openly announcing that one is homosexual/bisexual, or being publicly known as a homosexual person) accepted/tolerated, at least on certain planets or even cities? Or is it all together persecuted? And please provide a citation of the sources.

The reason for this question is that I had a fluff discussion with a fellow gamer about the fundamentals of the Imperial Creed, and whether it should be viewed as a taken from fundamental Hebrew/Christian/Muslim principles; or rather it is a simple concept based on the exterior properties of religions IRL, concerning only the divinity of the Emperor.

This is relevant to me because we plan to have a P&P dark heresy session, and need the facts/fluffs on many factors. This happens to be one we think may become relevant.

In all likelihood they don't have any official stance on the subject. A couple books have touched it but nothing sweeping.

If anything, its looked at like the following. The Emperor needs every citizen to do their part in aiding the war effort, that includes producing the next generation. Thus being LGBT would be seen as a dereliction of your duty.

Many planets have been confirmed as having reproductive duty be important. In the novel "Ice Guard" one of the characters is a women(rare in Valhallan regiments) who is there because she was unable to have children and so the only alternative was to be a soldier. The Vostroyans also likely have similar beliefs.

This is going to go downhill fast.

To be honest, the concepts of sexuality in the 40K universe are always treaded upon very lightly, and indirectly. There have been a fair number of same sex relationships suggested. Most notably in A Thousand Sons.

It's really difficult to say what it would be like in 40K. There has certainly been no insinuation that it was considered heresy in the 40K timeline, but it's also worth noting that that's way too controversial of a topic to ever be broached in the fluff.

I'd say it depends on how grimdark you want to be, and if you're the GM, lol. Certainly I could see plenty of arguments that 40K's repressive Imperium outlawing the practice. I mean, it's not a nice place, and that would certainly only be one more in a long line of the ways the Imperium isn't meant to be depicted as a fun and happy place. I mean, nobody really thinks too hard about how Cadia works, lol. I mean, everybody is drafted into the military, and yet they have a high enough reproduction rate to generate these countless regiments. And yet the ideal breeding period for females is rough age 17 to 30 because too much older and the likelihood of genetic defect rises significantly. So are the young women of Cadia being drafted into a militarized birthing program and that's why we see almost none of them depicted in the minis and fluff? Maybe the one from Space Marine is infertile? It's really the only explanation that makes sense. That topic has been broached before, and it's definitely grimdark as heck. But people get uncomfortable discussing it because it offends our modern sensibilities too much.

So, if sexuality is not really going to be integral to your campaign and its characters, maybe it's just better to be left alone.

Its 40k so it depends

As others have noted there a few lesbian or gay characters - I have not seen any specifics in any of the BL or other fluff that it is noted as being persecuted especially - the Imperium persecutes those who act or speakagainst it or somehow fail to fulfill its needs.............

Imperial Culture is pretty different from world to world some may well have the whole Warrior Brother thing going on (Spartans/Samurai and many others) deal where you have sex with women to have children and sex with men for other stuff and vice versa with female dominated cutlures..

It may be like in the Spartacus TV series - its not even worth remarking on who does what with whom...............

In the Outlanders supplement for Necromunda the Redemption believed that fornication, even thinking about fornication, was one of a number of sins which must be purged from the race by fire, blood and faith.

The Redemption is obviously and extreme belief system which is not really compatible with those forced breeding programs which are mentioned and hinted at elsewhere in the background; it could well be argued that that is merely because these things are tolerated for practical necessity and then you have those 'vitae wombs' that the Death Korps of Krieg are supposed to use.

Ironically I think in many areas like this the Imperium is actually liberal, at least in the sense that it doesn't officially care about people's sexuality, race et cetera. All that matters is that the Emperor and the Imperium are placed before all personal, individual desires.

Practically the Imperium doesn't play that great a role in the lives of ordinary citizens, it interacts mainly on a planetary scale although the through the Ministorum it is most likely to interact and therefore exert control over individuals. In any case it will be down to the prevailing culture of any given world how it views sexuality and to what extent people can 'be themselves' as a result. For example, you might expect that a Death World inhabitant will simply not have the time to explore who they are as a person, their life totally dominated by day-to-day survival.

What I've gathered so far is that such matters are treated differently from planets to planets -- likely depending on a planet's own regulation and popular traditions; the religious tenets varies from dioceses, largely independent between cardinals? And since there are mentioned homosexual characters in the canon, should it be taken as reasons to believe that this matter is outside of the Lex Imperialis, and therefore none of the Adeptus Arbites' concerns?

 Gogsnik wrote:
In the Outlanders supplement for Necromunda the Redemption believed that fornication, even thinking about fornication, was one of a number of sins which must be purged from the race by fire, blood and faith.

A way around that is if same-sex marriage is legal on Necromunda, in which case, intercourse between two human of the same gender would still adhere to the redemptionists' beliefs.

Which reminds me, I've heard somewhere that reproductive activities between human and abhumans are forbidden, is it true? If so, in what publication is such things mentioned? Or if it is implied, how?

By observation, the Imperium's civil rights are actually much more liberal compared to ours, on the whole. As long as you're not a mutant, psyker and follow Imperial laws they don't seem to particularly care about your gender, sexual orientation or consenting sexual practice.

And as far as the Guard is concerned, every Human has the right, and the expectation, to die for the Emprah.

The only exception to this would be individual worlds/systems who's head honcho disapproves of a particular orientation/act, in which case they may use the Imperial religion as an instrument to oppress it.

"The Emperor hates butsecs, therefore it is illegal!

"b-but the Ecclesiarchy in other parts of the sector don't preach tha-

Heretic! Off with your head!"

 BlaxicanX wrote:
By observation, the Imperium's civil rights are actually much more liberal compared to ours, on the whole. As long as you're not a mutant, psyker and follow Imperial laws they don't seem to particularly care about your gender, sexual orientation or consenting sexual practice.

And as far as the Guard is concerned, every Human has the right, and the expectation, to die for the Emprah.

The only exception to this would be individual worlds/systems who's head honcho disapproves of a particular orientation/act, in which case they may use the Imperial religion as an instrument to oppress it.

"The Emperor hates butsecs, therefore it is illegal!

"b-but the Ecclesiarchy in other parts of the sector don't preach tha-

Heretic! Off with your head!"

Off the top of my head, the only actual "canonical" (in that it came from "official fluff") example of the Ecclesiarchy being used to oppress something was when the Sons of Malice were attacked by an inquisitor for cannibal practices. This ordinarily wouldn't mean much (Cannibals = Chaos is a logical enough assumption in many cases) except the fluff explicitly noted "Despite how several other Space Marine chapters practice cannibalism". Well, that and Fenris but that's Space Wolves for ya.

I doubt any planetary governor would be stupid enough to use the Ecclesiarchy to oppress someone without the Ecclesiarchy's permission. THat would get him declared a heretic REAL fast (or get a vindicare bullet to the head) because the Ecclesiarchy (which DOES go around validating various sects of the Imperial Cult, in order to make sure ye ol "We worship the Emperor by spreading plagues!" isn't actually a chaos cult in disguise) would likely view that Imperial Governor as stepping on their turf.

An Ecclesiarch however might abuse that power but the two times an ecclesiarch did was when it was a Chaos agent in disguise (Saint Basilica and the Abyssal Crusade, and Cardinal Xaphan of the Siege of Vraks)

So for the most part, I imagine the Imperium is likely somewhat alert to "That governor is abusing religion to oppress Gay people. We'd better investigate that governor because he might be a chaos cultist in disguise". ...at least, I'd hope so.

Honestly, looking at how the Imperium treats its citizens- they probably don't give a damn about your sexual orientation unless a planet was having population issues, and even then would only advise breeding programs. Hell compared to modern day America they're liberal. Even some mutants, like the fish-people are accepted and not persecuted for merely existing. It's only when you get into severe mutants like Beastmen and Chaos that the policy switches to prejudice with lethal force.

Essentially, at least by the entire federation of Imperial Worlds, the Imperium doesn't care about sexual orientation or genetic differences until you start growing extra limbs and/or become anthropomorphic Otherwise just do your job, worship the God Emperor, don't poke your nose around where it doesn't belong, and follow the orders of your betters and you'll be perfectly fine.

(Or at least, unmolested by the government. No guarantees about oppressive hours, alien invasion, or actual molestation by the dark eldar.)

i think the imperium would have a purely pragmatic view on that. Before the Emperor was put out of commission he fought against religion and the one put in place around him likely did not address it either because he had no official stance on it.
I also note that in many places in the imperium, marriages and such as a luxury most of the masses simply dont have anyway. Overall, I would say it is ignored and not addressed at all.

I too, see this thread going downhill fast. lol

I'm sure the treatment if LGBT people is mostly likely subject to local law unless Imperial Law dictates no discrimination. Overall I see them as being treated no differently, I mean if we still can't accept gay people by the 41st millennium then forget it man let chaos take over.

Regarding such things the Imperium for the most part doesn't care. so long as a planet sends in it's tithes and worships the god-emperor in some form or another, they're free to do as they like.

I don't see why it would matter to the wider Imperium. As long as it doesn't break laws I doubt the Imperium cares about anybodies views.

Have to agree with most of the above - as far as the Imperium is concerned, they have other things to worry about.

Saying that, if intolerance of homosexuality was a cultural practice on an Imperial plant and people were persecuted for being gay, I don't think the Imperium would interfere with that suppression either.

Seeing as that the Dark Angels are all closet homosexuals, I think it is okay. Unless maybe that is the real secret the Dark Angels are trying to protect...

Furthermore, I think it is dependent on an individual world, or even a specific region on a world. It is all a matter of culture. On one world, people may be supportive of homosexuality, similar to the Ancient Greeks for example, while on a different world, homosexuals would be summarily executed.
The Imperium as a whole, as large and diverse as it is, usually does not tend to care about such minor cultural details.

I doubt most people care. There are so many other pressures on imperial citizens. Personal recreation and those of your neighbors are pretty low on the scale.

As long as no one mentions Slaanesh...

 lcmiracle wrote:
Ok, I've been wondering, has there ever been any hint of how homosexuality is treated anywhere in the Imperium?

Or more specifically, is there any GW & BL (and maybe FFG, with a grain of salt) fluff that shows whether it is generally seen as heresy for some one to participate in homosexual activities? Is the homosexual identity (as in, openly announcing that one is homosexual/bisexual, or being publicly known as a homosexual person) accepted/tolerated, at least on certain planets or even cities? Or is it all together persecuted? And please provide a citation of the sources.

The reason for this question is that I had a fluff discussion with a fellow gamer about the fundamentals of the Imperial Creed, and whether it should be viewed as a taken from fundamental Hebrew/Christian/Muslim principles; or rather it is a simple concept based on the exterior properties of religions IRL, concerning only the divinity of the Emperor.

This is relevant to me because we plan to have a P&P dark heresy session, and need the facts/fluffs on many factors. This happens to be one we think may become relevant.

GIven that the imperium is an ultra massive empire, with quadrillions of humans, and with cities so full of people that it's all the arbites can do to stop the gangers from burning the noble's houses, I get the feeling that the IOM gives no gaks about who you sleep with. About the only thing they ever bother to punish is anything that is detrimental to humanity at large, such as mass murder, or heresy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

stripeydave wrote:
As long as no one mentions Slaanesh...

Futa.

I am pretty sure there are planets of the Imperium where heterosexuality is forbidden (maybe outside of very specific periods for reproduction) and homosexual relationships are the only one allowed. Because so many planets, so different from one another! One must be basically like the barbarian from Oglaf(NSFW).

As people have said, GW and BL never get explicit, so we have to base our knowledge on various hints and insinuations in the books.

It seems like many zealous religious people tend to frown LGBT relationships because they associate them with Slaanesh. Slaanesh worshipers pursue extreme forms of heterosexuality too, but that gets more of a pass because it's 1) much more common and 2) necessary to produce more humans, which are a vital resource to the Imperium. Still, the most extreme Imperial cults despise heterosexual relationships as well, and only tolerate sex for reproduction, if they don't take outright vows of celibacy. Either way, it is the association with Slaanesh, not any connection to Judeo-Christian beliefs, that is the reason for any negative attitudes about LGBT's among the Ecclesiarchy and those who follow them faithfully.

However, this is nowhere near universal dogma. There may be a puritan Inquisitor who sees any nonheterosexual relationship as a sign of Slaanesh corruption and will burn and purge. Another puritan Inquisitor may feel that, as long as a person loyally serves the Emperor and doesn't take things to the extremes that invite Slaanesh, their sexuality is a personal matter and is irrelevant.

That's just a broad generalization of what seems to be the Ecclesiarchial dogma about the matter. They aren't exactly gay friendly, but LGBT isn't automatically heresy. It depends on where you are, which Imperial official your dealing with, and their own interpretation of Imperial beliefs.

Outside of the zealous types (and they don't run everything, look at Necromunda, where the fairly secular noble houses run everything while Redemptionists are an outlaw gang) attitudes can literally be anything, particularly with so many different worlds and people.

 Inquisitor Gonzo wrote:
Have to agree with most of the above - as far as the Imperium is concerned, they have other things to worry about.

There is always plenty of other things to worry in a universe filled with horrors trying to annihilate the unstable Imperium of the human race.

But that doesn't mean we should forget we are in the grim darkness of the far future, where a lot of unnecessary harm is unleashed upon innocent civilians in an administration which would make look 1984 Big Brother's reign like a nice, illuminated and liberal monarchy.

So, given that the books and the fluff aren't really explanatory in this, I would personally bet that since stuff is supposed to be the darker and most dystopic possible, LGBT are probably going thorough their big deal of persecutions and racism. Not in every single, possible planet of course, but still.

 fallinq wrote:
It seems like many zealous religious people tend to frown LGBT relationships because they associate them with Slaanesh.

By that rate, a person trying to be a good chef is associated with Slaanesh too, because:
- Looking for perfection is something directly associated with Slaanesh
- Good food is also, like every worldly pleasure, associated with Slaanesh


I doubt it is the case. The most extreme religious nut will frown on good food, just like they frown on sex, but I doubt they will consider people doing either are directly Slaaneshi, just decadent and lacking of moral value… like everyone else who is not part of their cult.

I read the title as LRBT. And I was wondering what could possibly be wrong with the Leman Russ.

 fallinq wrote:
There may be a puritan Inquisitor who sees any nonheterosexual relationship as a sign of Slaanesh corruption and will burn and purge. Another puritan Inquisitor may feel that, as long as a person loyally serves the Emperor and doesn't take things to the extremes that invite Slaanesh, their sexuality is a personal matter and is irrelevant.

Furthermore... Many reasonable Inquisitors don't care about your sexuality as long as it isn't a shameful secret someone can blackmail you with. Or any other secret, for that matter. Having secrets is often worse than having some insignificant vice that doesn't get in the way of your work.

 lcmiracle wrote:

Which reminds me, I've heard somewhere that reproductive activities between human and abhumans are forbidden, is it true? If so, in what publication is such things mentioned? Or if it is implied, how?

I haven't heard anything one way or the other in official fluff, but it is easy to infer from existing material that the IoM frowns on such relationships extra hard. Abhumans are barely considered human in most cases (Ogryns seem to get the most favorable treatment because they are so cute and cuddly, Ratlings are next best) and the IoM goes to great lengths to make everyone hate and fear mutants. True, abhumans are stable mutations (subspecies is a more accurate term) of humans, but that is a distinction that will be lost on the majority of Imperial citizens. "If it is different; it is wrong" is the general theme of the Ecclesiarchy and the Adeptus and the abhuman strains are definately different. Therefore, they are wrong. Therefore, a baseline human having sex with an abhuman is almost the same as having sex with a regular mutant (super-duper heresy). Now, the "tolerated" status of abhumans might make the relationship borederline accepted, but it would at best be pushing the boundaries of good taste to their absolute limit.

For example, I run a Dark Heresy game from time to time. The party has a female NPC Guardsman (of the Penal Trooper variety) who is a Beastman (she has wolf-like traits, rather than goat-like and was constructed using the Hive Mutant origin). She functions as extra muscle for the group. The players (and everyone else) refer to her as a mutant, but she loudly and repeatedly proclaims that she is an abhuman ("They don't let mutants into the Guard!") to anyone and everyone. Nobody particularly cares to see the distinction. She is tolerated by the group because she is loyal and useful, not because they like her. Recently, the party was sent on a mission along with the rest of the Beastwoman's IG group (a kill-team made up of members of several human regiments). Amongst the IG soldiers was a guy who was clearly involved in a sexual relationship with the Beastwoman (her name is Varro, by the way). This revelation disturbed the players to no end and colored their opinions of the rest of the IG kill-team because they tolerated such a gross abberation in their midst. Interestingly enough, the NPC who is shagging Varro isn't doing it because he likes her; he's doing it solely because she will sleep with him, which is something the other female members of the kill team won't do. The NPC attempted to woo each of the female troopers in turn and was rejected, with only the filthy abhuman freak willing to share a bedroll with him (and he had to buy her affections with a Triplex pattern lasgun). The relationship is not anything like healthy or loving, as the man is only interested in Varro because she is female (there isn't really any physical attraction there... at least not that anyone involved will admit to) and Varro is only interested because a) her partner keeps giving her things in exchange for her services and b) as an abhuman, she can't be choosy about her partners since she isn't likely to get many offers.

Imperial writ basically says that anything done in pursuit of pleasure is heretical.

It also says that things done to ensure the smooth running of the Imperium are to be endorsed.

Personally, I would read this as: "Be as gay or as het as you like, as long as you only have sex to stay sane and productive."

Another note: It's the Ultramarines who spend all their free time lounging around in bathrobes and getting oiled up by serfs together. Dark Angels are more into meditation and metaphorical self-flaggelation (while Imperial Fists are more into literal self-flaggelation).

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Imperial writ basically says that anything done in pursuit of pleasure is heretical.

It also says that things done to ensure the smooth running of the Imperium are to be endorsed.

Personally, I would read this as: "Be as gay or as het as you like, as long as you only have sex to stay sane and productive."

Another note: It's the Ultramarines who spend all their free time lounging around in bathrobes and getting oiled up by serfs together. Dark Angels are more into meditation and metaphorical self-flaggelation (while Imperial Fists are more into literal self-flaggelation).

If a Dark Angel isn't reading, being berated by an over zealous Chaplain, snooping on the older tomes and walking right into an Inner Circle meeting, being berated and forced to write the entire contents of a prayer book over and over, getting his gak figuratively kicked in by Asmodai, watching Asmodai getting his literal gak kicked in by Azrael or Sapphon, bolter drilling, sparring, berated by Asmodai, being berated by Belial, or just being plain berated by somebody, then he's sleeping.

Also, if a Dark Angel is meditating, then a Chaplain will burst in and berate him for not reading (but not too much) or drilling, but if he's drilling or reading, then a Chaplain will burst in and berate him for not meditating at the chapel.

Or more specifically, is there any GW & BL (and maybe FFG, with a grain of salt) fluff that shows whether it is generally seen as heresy for some one to participate in homosexual activities? Is the homosexual identity (as in, openly announcing that one is homosexual/bisexual, or being publicly known as a homosexual person) accepted/tolerated, at least on certain planets or even cities? Or is it all together persecuted? And please provide a citation of the sources.

There is, specifically, within the Eisenhorn and Ravenor series (especially in Ravenor), indications that the Imperium doesn't care about your sexuality, so long as your preference is exclusive to other human beings.

 Psienesis wrote:

Or more specifically, is there any GW & BL (and maybe FFG, with a grain of salt) fluff that shows whether it is generally seen as heresy for some one to participate in homosexual activities? Is the homosexual identity (as in, openly announcing that one is homosexual/bisexual, or being publicly known as a homosexual person) accepted/tolerated, at least on certain planets or even cities? Or is it all together persecuted? And please provide a citation of the sources.

There is, specifically, within the Eisenhorn and Ravenor series (especially in Ravenor), indications that the Imperium doesn't care about your sexuality, so long as your preference is exclusive to other human beings.

Please elaborate.

The part that comes most-readily to mind is in Ravenor 3. The Inquisitor is doing his "mind reading on a major scale" deal, reading the minds of everyone in a Hive City within about twenty miles of his position, and encounters two young men (noted as being lovers) practicing for a theatrical play on the roof of their tenement.

That Abnett makes it a point to mention that these two characters are gay, but makes no further comment about it from the Inquisitor's perspective, indicates that it's just background details about these characters that have no bearing on their lives in the Imperium.