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With the reduction in cost of these two units, we have seen a huge reemergence of them in GK armies and I wanted to see which unit is more worth it. Terminators will still provide the one troop (I am just going to assume everyone is using the Nemesis Strike Force because it is that awesome of a detachment) and allow the now standard build of a Librarian with a Terminator squad but I have seen some people recommending taking a Paladin squad in place of this but the Paladins are an elite choice so you would still need to take Terminator squad or in a low point game, a GKSS and the Paladins still cost more despite getting 3 for the same price as 5 Terminators. So which is more worth it? Are the 2 W models and taking an Apothecary worth it or will the 5 man Terminator squad suffice? My other question would be, do people just take the minimum Paladins or bump it up to 5 man for an even greater cost?

Well, GK Terminators are considered to be cheap these days.
I really doubt that this is really the case.
Just look at a 10 men Termie squad with 2 psycannons, 2 daemon hammers, 6 halberds, and melta bombs, which is slightly over 400 pts.
Compare this with vanilla Termies or Assault Termies.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Compare this with vanilla Termies or Assault Termies.

Which are rarely troops ...

And more expensive (if you take 2 assault cannons or 2 missile launchers), and have far less options.

Why not both?

I don't think strike squads are ever going to be a better choice than terminators. Sword terminators with psycannon clock in at 185... that's a pretty decent deal.

Decent... not: "lol I'll just spam this 6 times and faceroll my opponent" like the waveserpent (also obj secured).

It seems like running 5 is the most ideal, since you get access to 2 special weapons (running 2 psycannons greatly increases the ranged firepower of the unit). Purifiers can do the same thing, but can't move and shoot like Paladins do.

I've played against them a lot, and I've never found them to be a particularly scary part of the GK army. They're tough, certainly - even with 7th edition's wound allocation, you can still re-arrange them every turn to distribute wounds more evenly across the squad. So in practice, they're very tough against small arms fire (regular terminators can be fairly reliably whittled down by basic infantry fire). They're also quite survivable in close combat - the way wound allocation working in close combat does benefit their durability against stuff that isn't AP2.

They do suffer a lot from being T4. Their kryptonite is S8+ AP2 weapons, which are unfortunately common these days.

What I don't find particularly scary are their capabilities in close combat. They hit more often than regular terminators, but you're still paying 65% premium for the same number of base attacks. If you want to mulch through infantry with them, you're pay a lot more points for no extra attacks (and often, a no better chance to hit).

If you take 5+ models, it does seem like an apothecary is worth it. If you take 10, I think you would be crazy not to take the banner as well.

They work well enough as a surgical strike force, especially if you combine them with Draigo (with Gate of Infinity). This lets you teleport them to wherever they're needed (and you do need to be fighting constantly with them if you want them to be worth it), while at the same time allowing you to stay the hell away from weapons which ignore your armor and instant death you.

Mutter wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

Compare this with vanilla Termies or Assault Termies.

Which are rarely troops ...

And don't come with "2 psycannons, 2 daemon hammers, 6 halberds, and melta bombs"

Str 8+ AP2 guns are not nearly as common as you'd think. The unfortunate part is that any str 8+ gun is terrifying to paladins, regardless of ap.

And see that is my main concern with running Paladins. Regardless of how common S8+ AP2 Weapons are, I guarantee any that they have will be pointed in the direction of those Paladins and an Apothecary is useful but if that team is vaporized then there go all those points. I can tell you that is what I do with my Imperial Knight and his Thermal Cannon. The only saving grace they would have is Invisibility and Sanctuary but that would protect a squad of Terminators as well. I think the Paladins are a nice luxury unit but Terminators are a more efficient use of points for making the backbone of an army. I feel roughly the same about Draigo.

Oh, paladins shouldn't be your backbone. You'll fall into the same problems the plagued the old book. S8 AP2 be damned, with so few models on the board you'd better hope the dice are in your favor. I'd restrict it to one, maybe two groups. Tactically deployed away / out of LoS from the guns that kill them dead.

I've restricted myself to a max unit of 5...no apothecary and no banner because those are for the days you want 10.

2 Psycannons or 2 Psilencers or no guns and just running forward (but always a stave and a hammer)

I'd take the apothecary even for 5. The enormous point reduction makes it a steal.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
I'd take the apothecary even for 5. The enormous point reduction makes it a steal.

I wouldn't argue against you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Did people see that Techmarine Harnesses work differently...or is that true of all the new books?

Could be old news but they don't give you an I1 attack anymore..they just count as two special weapons giving you 1 extra attack.

Although I haven't been playing that long, what I have experienced is that paladins work well as body guard or honor guard units (like the codex says they are). I have re tooled my list to basically have my 2 librarians each with an honor guard of 3 paladins (one apothecary), and using 2 10 man terminators as troop choices with 3 dread knights rounding out the Heavy support. with my warlord taking the DLD relic it clocks at exactly 2k points. While it is dangerous, I really haven't had any issues with a majority of my army deep striking in. I have seen this list be pretty effective against most things i have played. so to answer your question I use Terminators as the back bone of the army and paladins as beefy units to protect my Librarians and eat MEQ and lower in Melee combat.

If you're going to take 3...why not take 5 GKT?

You lose one wound for equal points but gain more attacks, obsec, and more durability against S8+

This gives me an idea for my Mordrak and Ghost Knight models. I'll paint Mordrak's cape blue and make him a Librarian. Then call the Ghost Knights his honor guard of Paladins.

 ductvader wrote:
If you're going to take 3...why not take 5 GKT?

You lose one wound for equal points but gain more attacks, obsec, and more durability against S8+

it is easier to deep strike 4 models than 6. and i don't use my libby and paladins to take objectives, i use my combat squad terminators to do that.

GKTiberius wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
If you're going to take 3...why not take 5 GKT?

You lose one wound for equal points but gain more attacks, obsec, and more durability against S8+

it is easier to deep strike 4 models than 6. and i don't use my libby and paladins to take objectives, i use my combat squad terminators to do that.

Deepstriking 4 does allow for a few square inches of placement. But it's less a factor of what you intend to do with them and more a factor of them just being able to do it if the need arises. 5 GKT can also fit in a cheap incinerator or throw a few more points for a psilencer or psycannon.

I can see a bodyguard of 2 (Are they still 1-9...dont have my book)...it also makes for a cheap teleport homer.

Has anyone considered GKGMs instead of librarians. The idea of being able to pack that extra psycannon and have a beat stick is compelling, plus you get ML2 as well.

I'd agree, 5 seems like the optimal number, with an apothecary now that its only 20 points to upgrade instead of 75

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I'd agree, 5 seems like the optimal number, with an apothecary now that its only 20 points to upgrade instead of 75

So

5 + Apothecary

I also consider a hammer and stave necessary

Now...optimal weapons? 2 Psycannons is my go to...I also like the idea of halberds or falchions in there.

An argument can be made for incinerators or psilencers.



@Wren
What do you think of a Soul Glaive BC or GM for auto Force Psilencers?

I've been running 2 hammers, 3 halberds, 2 psycannons and an apothecary

That would be an interesting list if you stick a captain/gm in the squad with 2 psilencers with the glaive

Give the IC a psilencer too...

There you go, 3 psilencers, thats 18 shots from those 3 guys alone

 ductvader wrote:
Did people see that Techmarine Harnesses work differently...or is that true of all the new books?

Could be old news but they don't give you an I1 attack anymore..they just count as two special weapons giving you 1 extra attack.

Where are you seeing that? What I see in the glossary is that it grants you two servo-arms, and that servo-arms are basically Powerfists with AP1, similar to the Space Marine codex. (Space Wolves have a totally different repair roll system, if that's what you're getting at).

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Str 8+ AP2 guns are not nearly as common as you'd think. The unfortunate part is that any str 8+ gun is terrifying to paladins, regardless of ap.

I'm used to our FLGS meta. I use Vulkan with meltaguns, another guy runs a wraith construct eldar army, another likes Riptides. Our poor GK player's Paladins don't stand a chance against all the instant death.

 DanielBeaver wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Did people see that Techmarine Harnesses work differently...or is that true of all the new books?

Could be old news but they don't give you an I1 attack anymore..they just count as two special weapons giving you 1 extra attack.

Where are you seeing that? What I see in the glossary is that it grants you two servo-arms, and that servo-arms are basically Powerfists with AP1, similar to the Space Marine codex. (Space Wolves have a totally different repair roll system, if that's what you're getting at).

They used to grant you an additional attack at I1 that was a powerfist attack. Now you can just use your additional attack for it or any of your weapons as long as they're the same weapon.

 ductvader wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Did people see that Techmarine Harnesses work differently...or is that true of all the new books?

Could be old news but they don't give you an I1 attack anymore..they just count as two special weapons giving you 1 extra attack.

Where are you seeing that? What I see in the glossary is that it grants you two servo-arms, and that servo-arms are basically Powerfists with AP1, similar to the Space Marine codex. (Space Wolves have a totally different repair roll system, if that's what you're getting at).

They used to grant you an additional attack at I1 that was a powerfist attack. Now you can just use your additional attack for it or any of your weapons as long as they're the same weapon.

I mean... having two specialist weapons does grant you an extra attack, regardless of what you're actually using to attack. I don't see how that's any different than how the space marine techmarine works (I don't have the old GK codex, so I don't know if it was different then).

By the by, staves aren't nearly as mandatory imo. It's a force staff with adamantium will. No more 2++.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
By the by, staves aren't nearly as mandatory imo. It's a force staff with adamantium will. No more 2++.

Agreed, Adamantium Will just seems redundant with all the other psychic defenses our guys have.

Zimko wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
By the by, staves aren't nearly as mandatory imo. It's a force staff with adamantium will. No more 2++.

Agreed, Adamantium Will just seems redundant with all the other psychic defenses our guys have.

I like Adamantium Will and having that little extra S6/Hammerhand 8 in there when need be.