Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I used to be much more active on this forum - going into the 40k proposed rules section, bumping that old "unique character's thread," talking like I actually had a lot of experience playing the game... that was fun.

Then Games Workshop released the Eldar and Tau codices. Those were awesome. New toys, new power to play with, the new hotness (basically).

Then Games Workshop released the Tyranid Codex. I was personally riding on that codex because my fiance wanted to play Tyranids (wanted being the key word). It was disheartening, to say the least, and I spent so much time trying to not only make a list that didn't suck but to re-write the codex to make it suck less.

Then I realized: what in the godless shart-castle am I doing? Let's see what I was doing...
1. Giving money to a company that not only gave zero gaks about me as a veteran player, but was actually contemptuous on me as a customer altogether.
2. Wasting personal time doing their job for them.

Say what you will about 40k. It has its moments. It can be fun. But Games-Workshop? Well, let's just say that if any other company in any other industry pulled the same gak that GW pulls on an annual basis, that company would go out of business. Yet GW plugs along, failing forward year after year, limping along like a homeless dude who is essentially a cornucopia of bad decisions.

Then GW released a few more codices, the new IG, Orks, Grey Knights, and now Dark Eldar. I have a Dark Eldar army in my basement, and I was wondering what GW did with them, since they were falling behind in the newer editions. Let's just say that if they were free-falling before, now someone has actively worked to make them fall faster. It's not disappointing or angering anymore. It's simply sad.

And then I saw a thread where someone finally began to understand that GW was a terrible company. I chuckled for a second. Enlightenment is upon them.

Anyway, time to cook dinner. Yay for real life!

There's like, a whole thread where people are talking about their reasons for not playing GW's games anymore. This would have fit right in there.

Don't worry, someone will be along shortly to explain how, somehow, your opinions are wrong, and, furthermore, GW is doing fine despite all evidence to the contrary.

 McNinja wrote:
a company that not only gave zero gaks about me as a veteran player

LMAO I was like LMAO.

How about checking the threads? There have been threads like this for a while with "haters" and "fanboys" at each others throat.

O basically quit 40k when 7th ed came out, read 1/2 the rules and said "deep six it". I have one last tournament to go to (pre paid before 7th ed release) if my last army does not sell on ebay by then. I figure I concede to my opponent and ask he/she to play a friendly game. They will get the win after all.

Now I play x-wing more and picked up DzC.

One thing I don't get: how people can quit before actually playing 7th edition games? Me and my entire club are still having loads of fun with it.

 Robisagg wrote:
One thing I don't get: how people can quit before actually playing 7th edition games? Me and my entire club are still having loads of fun with it.

Because people want different things.

Your fun isn't the same as my fun but both our ideas of fun are valid. 7th is a lot of things to a lot of people.

All the fun in 40k 7th edition, is from the commitment of the players to have fun no matter what.
And spending all their time and energy finding like minded people who can agree to interpret and 'fix' the rules in the same way as them.

Any rule set can be fun if you are prepared to put this amount of effort into it!

If you want rules for a war game that provides enough game balance for enjoyable pick up games , then 40k simply is not that game.

I really don't get this "7th edition makes me quit" -thing which some people have going on. 7th edition is basically 6th edition with changed Psychic rules. Surely changing Psychic powers (arguably for the better) is not going to make anyone quit? I mean I understand if people had already quit because of 6th edition since that had lot more changes, or they quit because they don't like the codecies, or prices.

Backfire wrote:
I really don't get this "7th edition makes me quit" -thing which some people have going on. 7th edition is basically 6th edition with changed Psychic rules. Surely changing Psychic powers (arguably for the better) is not going to make anyone quit? I mean I understand if people had already quit because of 6th edition since that had lot more changes, or they quit because they don't like the codecies, or prices.

Building off of that- I really like the psychic phase. It streamlines all powers into one phase, and to benefit you have to build your army around it. Those that can't counter it make it up via other options.

Psychic phase and unbound, at the least.

And isn't the psychic phase a flawed magic phase from an old WHFB edition? You're right that it's arguable. That's the problem I've been talking about - it's like there's a refusal to understand how 40K's idiosyncracies might be flawed, and how that might turn people off.

well I'd argue that Psychic phase is unarguable!....what is certainly not unarguable is that the old Psychic powers system became almost unplayable during 6th edition with huge prevalence of powerful Space wizards everywhere, and one army (Daemons) where everything they did was psychic. I just don't understand how anyone can look back at that with sense of nostalgia. It's like some people missing 5th edition Wound Allocation.

I greatly miss 5th ed wound allocation. Yes people could abuse it, but that is a quick fix.

6th/7th is ridiculous, it's a company or small army scale game but it's using mechanics from a 10 man per side skirmish game. Removing from the front slows the game down a ton, and there are still wound allocation shenanigans with one guy tanking 20 hits then throwing a mook in front of the one plasma shot coming his way.

 Robisagg wrote:
One thing I don't get: how people can quit before actually playing 7th edition games? Me and my entire club are still having loads of fun with it.

Because people can read the rules, see the direction the game is going (large-scale games with rules meant for smaller scale) and say "Not for me"? The fact you and your club are having fun with it is great, but for a lot of people the game isn't the kind of game that they want.

For me personally I refuse to pay such high amounts for figures that I need a lot of and then play a game where my entire enjoyment hinges on whether my opponent has a similar mindset and playstyle to my own, a game that thinks that randomized everything is fun and exciting, and on top of that a game where the rules are so unbalanced that someone can inadvertently have a superpowered army if the units they think are cool happen to also be the good units, and someone else can have an army that's almost literally garbage if the units they like are the weaker units. And that's not even getting into how GW thinks of and treats its customers, with almost zero feedback, constantly making things Limited Edition when they shouldn't be just to keep up the facade that this is some exclusive Reform Club for gamers, and how they crap on independent retailers.

 jonolikespie wrote:
I greatly miss 5th ed wound allocation. Yes people could abuse it, but that is a quick fix.

6th/7th is ridiculous, it's a company or small army scale game but it's using mechanics from a 10 man per side skirmish game. Removing from the front slows the game down a ton, and there are still wound allocation shenanigans with one guy tanking 20 hits then throwing a mook in front of the one plasma shot coming his way.

My experience is complete opposite - for most part 6th and 7th edition games flow faster than 5th edition, wound allocation is simpler, pre-measuring speeds things up, there is less of that obnoxious 4+ cover everywhere...
Now, setting up a game, that is much slower in 6th and 7th and constant source of annoyance.

As for randomness, I get that people are annoyed about all the tables etc (I sure am) but to claim that they make the end result much more random is silly, as the tables tend to be mostly inconsequental. 5th edition was actually more random: unreliable vehicle damage had a huge impact to the game.

Really I've found that the best version of 40k is now called Bolt Action. That's basically everything 40k should be.

Backfire wrote:
I really don't get this "7th edition makes me quit" -thing which some people have going on. 7th edition is basically 6th edition with changed Psychic rules. Surely changing Psychic powers (arguably for the better) is not going to make anyone quit? I mean I understand if people had already quit because of 6th edition since that had lot more changes, or they quit because they don't like the codecies, or prices.

Valid question.
There were several things that people disliked about 6th, mainly the direction of bloated rules, FOC shennanigans and shoving things in the game that didn't belong there. (Mostly fliers and super heavies.) When 7th came out, we saw that they had done little to actually improve the game and went further in the direction we did not like. Unbound and Lords of War in the normal game. It became more of the kind of game we didn't want to play.
There are a lot of specifics, but that's the general idea.

7th won't make me quit, but the atrocious codices coming out might.

Backfire wrote:
I really don't get this "7th edition makes me quit" -thing which some people have going on. 7th edition is basically 6th edition with changed Psychic rules. Surely changing Psychic powers (arguably for the better) is not going to make anyone quit? I mean I understand if people had already quit because of 6th edition since that had lot more changes, or they quit because they don't like the codecies, or prices.

You're right, but I know a number of people that were willing to "hang in there" for one edition but when 7th came out and they realized that GW had doubled down on everything that they didn't like, then they quit. So they actually quit because of all the changes that 6th edition brought, but they only quit after 7th came out.

 McNinja wrote:
And then I saw a thread where someone finally began to understand that GW was a terrible company

GW isn't a "bad company". It's just a company like any other, it's run the way management sees fit to run it.

Management is the problem, management at GW is terrible.

GW needs new management. Unfortunately the current management has made it damn near impossible for anyone at GW to hire the very people they need to make the changes necessary.

They seem more interested in hiring more "yes men" and staff that aren't a "threat" to current management.

IMHO

 McNinja wrote:

Then Games Workshop released the Tyranid Codex. I was personally riding on that codex because my fiance wanted to play Tyranids (wanted being the key word). It was disheartening, to say the least, and I spent so much time trying to not only make a list that didn't suck but to re-write the codex to make it suck less.

GW already did this. It's called Skyblight and Living Artillery.

And just a quick reminder, everyone 'quit' when 8th fantasy came out too.

I was bitter about 7th and the IG codex, but my Dark Eldar codex arrived last night and now I am livid. With all of the rumors and leaks posted last week I somehow missed that harlequins had been removed from the codex. The missing HQ's I could tolerate. The real world reasoning behind that decision is annoying but at least some-what understandable (using GW logic). The continued glass-bottom-boating of wyches was majorly disappointing and made me hostile to the new codex, but I was still willing to give it a chance to see if it was fun. But now I learned they have gone and removed my clowns. Feth you, GW! The clowns were the straw that broke this camel's back. My army has so many gaps now that it is unrecognizable to me. Can I still play the army? Sure. I have almost all of the army options from the previous codex painted and ready to go, but my favorite units, the ones I gravitated to when the 5th edition codex came out and that I built my army around (harlequins and wyches), well they are gone or so difficult to use that playing with them is an exercise in masochism.

I have no doubt that the clowns will get their own supplement, like Inquisition or Legion of the Damned, and GW will expect me to shell out more money for content that just a week ago was provided in my codex.

I am not using this codex, and I am not going to pick up any new items that are released. This is just stupid. I honestly can't justify the rigmarole of trying to cobble together an army when GW insists on this ridiculous multi-book format that divides content and strings it out over two or more books.

So I am done. I'll play what I have, and I'll play previous editions, but I am fething finished with the current GW model.

Robisagg wrote:One thing I don't get: how people can quit before actually playing 7th edition games? Me and my entire club are still having loads of fun with it.

Backfire wrote:I really don't get this "7th edition makes me quit" -thing which some people have going on. 7th edition is basically 6th edition with changed Psychic rules. Surely changing Psychic powers (arguably for the better) is not going to make anyone quit? I mean I understand if people had already quit because of 6th edition since that had lot more changes, or they quit because they don't like the codecies, or prices.

I think what you guys are missing is that it's not only about the difference in gameplay between 6th and 7th. As well as reports of gameplay from trusted sources, there are alot of other factors (though many are $ related) that make folks like me and others quit before trying 7th including:

-Price to "re-up" A codex and the rules is about $120 that you have to drop Just to be able to try 7th. More if you have multiple armies.
-Deciding to pursue other games.
-Not liking 6th edition and assuming that 7th wouldn't be much different.
-Not being pleased with the changing flavor of fluff or miniatures.
-Not wanting to continue paying increasing prices for miniatures.

Basically, a change of editions is a great chance to get out. If you're feeling disenchanted, the change of editions is a sort of road sign that your current rulebooks have taken you as far as you can go and if you want out, now is the time to disembark.

Lanrak wrote:

Any rule set can be fun if you are prepared to put this amount of effort into it!

So true. I have an old rules set called "Fairy Meat." The rules are all over the place- there's fluff in the rules section and rules in the fluff section, and at least one or two rules that makes no sense to anyone ever. And that's not touching on the balance.

But the game is tons of fun with the right group.

 odinsgrandson wrote:

Lanrak wrote:

Any rule set can be fun if you are prepared to put this amount of effort into it!

So true. I have an old rules set called "Fairy Meat." The rules are all over the place- there's fluff in the rules section and rules in the fluff section, and at least one or two rules that makes no sense to anyone ever. And that's not touching on the balance.

But the game is tons of fun with the right group.

Fair Meat! Wow, that's a blast from the turn of the millennium. 1/1 scale gaming without LARPing! A buddy of mine has a batch of those figs that he swears will be used someday. I think the figs are OOP, but the rules are still available here: http://www.kenzerco.com/index.php?cPath=34_63

I halfway agree that effort can equal fun, but there's so many great rulesets out there, should you really have to beat yourself to death to make a bad one work?

I admit that I've even had a good time playing the vintage monstrosity Tractics with it's pages upon pages of charts, but that was with someone who knew the rules from 20 years of experience. I have a hard time imagining myself ever enjoying those rules without his guidance. I did put in the effort necessary to have fun with 40k for many years, but when I finally got fed up with the price raises and such it didn't take me long to find much better rulesets that I enjoyed for much less cash with much less effort.

In regards to 7th made me quit... I haven't Quit, but I also haven't picked up 7th.

This is what I need if I want to play 7th edition:
1. The core rulebook
2. The new Ork codex
3. Time to learn the new rules for the game
4. Time to inventory 20-40 thousand points of ork models in regards to the new codex.
5. Figure out which units and weapon options I currently don't have and will need for basic builds, like Gorkanauts, HQs with different gear, Buzzsaw MANZ and so on.

So I am looking at 150$ in rules, 300$ in models and ooodles of downtime learning new rules and painting models.

Will I do it? Maybe... Right now I have other games which are fulfilling my hobby and gaming time because a 7 year hiatus for ork rules pretty much left me with a 'completed' army 4 years ago.

Right now the effort is more of a barrier than the money, and the money is a barrier. So I am taking a break and gonna go play with my D&D and board game crew.

That is the harsh reality of letting a codex languish for so long. Even the most die-hard fans simply 'had nothing to build for orks' for so long that I moved on.

nkelsch wrote:
In regards to 7th made me quit... I haven't Quit, but I also haven't picked up 7th.

This is what I need if I want to play 7th edition:
1. The core rulebook
2. The new Ork codex
3. Time to learn the new rules for the game
4. Time to inventory 20-40 thousand points of ork models in regards to the new codex.
5. Figure out which units and weapon options I currently don't have and will need for basic builds, like Gorkanauts, HQs with different gear, Buzzsaw MANZ and so on.

So I am looking at 150$ in rules, 300$ in models and ooodles of downtime learning new rules and painting models.

Will I do it? Maybe... Right now I have other games which are fulfilling my hobby and gaming time because a 7 year hiatus for ork rules pretty much left me with a 'completed' army 4 years ago.

Right now the effort is more of a barrier than the money, and the money is a barrier. So I am taking a break and gonna go play with my D&D and board game crew.

That is the harsh reality of letting a codex languish for so long. Even the most die-hard fans simply 'had nothing to build for orks' for so long that I moved on.

As a former SOB player, I feel your pain on that one.

 Eilif wrote:

I think what you guys are missing is that it's not only about the difference in gameplay between 6th and 7th. As well as reports of gameplay from trusted sources, there are alot of other factors (though many are $ related) that make folks like me and others quit before trying 7th including:

-Price to "re-up" A codex and the rules is about $120 that you have to drop Just to be able to try 7th. More if you have multiple armies.
-Deciding to pursue other games.
-Not liking 6th edition and assuming that 7th wouldn't be much different.
-Not being pleased with the changing flavor of fluff or miniatures.
-Not wanting to continue paying increasing prices for miniatures.

Basically, a change of editions is a great chance to get out. If you're feeling disenchanted, the change of editions is a sort of road sign that your current rulebooks have taken you as far as you can go and if you want out, now is the time to disembark.

Well yeah, I get *that*. I am the only one from my gaming group who has bought 7th edition rulebook (we still play, we just cycle the rulebook) and even I wouldn't have done it if I had bought the BRB in 6th edition (I only had the DV mini-rulebook). I think 7th is an improvement over 6th, particularly the Psychic Phase and Ally Matrix, however it does annoy me that they didn't go further and remove other problems, most notably too many special rules and annoying mission setup with too many steps and rolls before you actually get to the game. So yeah, 7th is a missed opportunity and reeks of a cash-grab, however objectively, it's a better game now. Whereas with 6th vs 5th it goes down to taste and I can totally see why some people would hate the 6th over 5th or 4th.

Backfire wrote:

I am the only one from my gaming group who has bought 7th edition rulebook (we still play, we just cycle the rulebook) and even I wouldn't have done it if I had bought the BRB in 6th edition (I only had the DV mini-rulebook). I think 7th is an improvement over 6th, particularly the Psychic Phase and Ally Matrix, however it does annoy me that they didn't go further and remove other problems, most notably too many special rules and annoying mission setup with too many steps and rolls before you actually get to the game. So yeah, 7th is a missed opportunity and reeks of a cash-grab, however objectively, it's a better game now. Whereas with 6th vs 5th it goes down to taste and I can totally see why some people would hate the 6th over 5th or 4th.

I think you hit on a very good point and one that I missed and that is just simple ambivalence. When a new ruleset comes out that fixes somethings, but doesn't seem to fix enough it will bring out alot of feelings of "Meh". This is even more the case if it is perceived as a cash grab and comes in a long line of rules updates that made the same kind of almost-but-not-quite changes.

Unforunately "meh"-flavored ambivalence isn't the kind of response that will get someone to go out and buy an $80 rulebook.