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Nope. I was thinking of the Google Docs that they shared. Which are all gone now, but oh well. Thanks for sharing the pretty version. I wasn't in on that.

BrandonKF wrote:
Nope. I was thinking of the Google Docs that they shared. Which are all gone now, but oh well. Thanks for sharing the pretty version. I wasn't in on that.

The Google docs? Hm, don't know about those. And they actually can't do digital versions of the SW stuff due to their licensing, so I'm not sure those were official.

 Albertorius wrote:

BrandonKF wrote:
Nope. I was thinking of the Google Docs that they shared. Which are all gone now, but oh well. Thanks for sharing the pretty version. I wasn't in on that.

The Google docs? Hm, don't know about those. And they actually can't do digital versions of the SW stuff due to their licensing, so I'm not sure those were official.

Well, they had them shared all across the wide net among playtesters, so... *shrug*

Maybe their Alpha, and the Beta is the copy you have?

BrandonKF wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

BrandonKF wrote:
Nope. I was thinking of the Google Docs that they shared. Which are all gone now, but oh well. Thanks for sharing the pretty version. I wasn't in on that.

The Google docs? Hm, don't know about those. And they actually can't do digital versions of the SW stuff due to their licensing, so I'm not sure those were official.

Well, they had them shared all across the wide net among playtesters, so... *shrug*

Maybe their Alpha, and the Beta is the copy you have?

The Beta is the book they sold on GenCon and afterwards on their online store and through selected retailers. Basically the same as the HG one, except for the fact that they can't sell pdfs (nor share them for free)

Oh. Okay. Explains why I never saw it before now. Your friend has some talent then.

Edit: Although I think we're close to derailing this thread pretty quickly. ^____^

Back on topic.

Here is an updated view of the Spitting Cobra 3D model:

Ok, that looks quite a bit better than the first one.

Agreed. They've also updated with the 54th update with a 3D wrap-around of the Jaguar, and they got in touch with Impudent Mortal for some 75mm round MDF terrain bases.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/heavygearblitz/heavy-gear-blitz-war-for-terra-nova-starter-set/posts

Hm, wow. That Jaguar has some ginormous head.

Yeah, I said "better", but unfortunately, "better" is still not really "good". Hopefully they'll end up "good" with some more passes.

 Albertorius wrote:
Hm, wow. That Jaguar has some ginormous head.

Yeah, I said "better", but unfortunately, "better" is still not really "good". Hopefully they'll end up "good" with some more passes.

I was looking more at the body. It's rough right now.

As to the Spit, a few more tweaks. I don't know, what do you think is the biggest difference in proportion? And do you think they can even achieve the same proportions?

BrandonKF wrote:
I was looking more at the body. It's rough right now.

As to the Spit, a few more tweaks. I don't know, what do you think is the biggest difference in proportion? And do you think they can even achieve the same proportions?

Well, right now, and looking just at the front, I'd say that the current worst parts would be the knees and the arms on the whole (the shoulders look nice right now). The tracks are also quite rough, and the thigh front armor plates look odd.

Also there's a complete dearth of fine detail in the mini, and there shouldn't be, nor need it be. The face sensors need detailing, the "ears" comm antennas need detailing (and thinning), the rest of the head needs detailing... actually basically the whole mini needs detailing. The mini looks much better, volumes-wise, but right now it lacks... well almost all detail whatsoever, other than the volumes. Hence it looks "better", but not "good".

EDIT: Let's be completely honest, here.

This is what HG's current renders look like:



This is what HG minis' 3d renders are going to be measured against:

You can add a lot more detail on those Infinity models as those will come out of rubber molds. The HG minis will come out of inflexible steel molds.

But you are right, detail is low.\

I want something like these, see the Grizzly further down the page:
http://3d-foundry.com/?static2/precalc-cg

The Infinity renders are more detailed. However, they also are cast in a different medium than the new HG models (metal as opposed to plastic). I expect that the Infinity models also cost more than the new Heavy Gear plastics will cost.

There is also more to a model than detail. The aesthetic is very important. I am a fan of the HG aesthetic.

All of this being said, I do not think that there is any doubt that more detail is generally desired, and that the Heavy Gear sculpts are on the low end of the detail spectrum.

I would rather Heavy Gear stand on its own. The only contemporary mecha games currently are Battletech and Alpha Strike.

Infinity, Last Saga, MERCs, Myth, Afterlife: The Shards of Liberty, and Fallen Frontiers all fall under the idea of infantry combat.

They include great vehicles. Great detailed miniatures. All have their strengths.

But they are, first and foremost, actions involving men.

Flames of War I will grant is even closer in style to Heavy Gear than those I listed above.

Do I want more detailed plastic miniatures? Yes. But comparisons right now are going to be judged on finished products versus entirely new molds in entirely new medium for the company. So far, I applaud the man who is performing the duties of the renders. I can only hope to see more work and even greater efficiency in the modelers and production and distribution staff.

Cergorach wrote:
You can add a lot more detail on those Infinity models as those will come out of rubber molds. The HG minis will come out of inflexible steel molds.

Oh, I agree completely. It's not fair... but it is what people will compare it with. And it's not like other companies do much less detail in renders for plastics, either. See Malifaux, GW or PSC.

But you are right, detail is low.\

I want something like these, see the Grizzly further down the page:
http://3d-foundry.com/?static2/precalc-cg

Yep, those are quite better. And even those could be further refined.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrandonKF wrote:
I would rather Heavy Gear stand on its own. The only contemporary mecha games currently are Battletech and Alpha Strike.

Yeah... CAV, Robotech and Paulson Games don't exist, no siree.

You guys also know that there's a Gundam game, right... My Japanese is non-existent though... There are a ton of rules sets for Mecha (Mekton, etc.) that either have few minis or use minis from other games.

ps. Alpha Strike = Battletech light

I think this one's reached the 'good deal, definitely worth it' point now, right?

I mean, if you're at all interested in the minis/theme/scale/etc, of course!

Cergorach wrote:
You guys also know that there's a Gundam game, right... My Japanese is non-existent though... There are a ton of rules sets for Mecha (Mekton, etc.) that either have few minis or use minis from other games.

There are multiple ones, actually, most of which use just gashapon minis that you can get for really cheap (and painted to boot). Those also have much sharper details.

And of course there's Mobile Frame Zero too, for those among you that likes to play with legos. And as you say, many more games that you couldn't call "mecha" games that have mecha in multiple lines. And loads of scifi games that can use mecha...

Hell, I still have SJG's OGRE mecha rules, written by Marc A. Vezina himself!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:
I think this one's reached the 'good deal, definitely worth it' point now, right?

I mean, if you're at all interested in the minis/theme/scale/etc, of course!

If you like the minis, I'd say "yes".

Me, personally, I've changed my pledge to $1 and plan to wait and see how those renders end up looking and how the actual minis look. I already have a crapton of HG minis and the KS doesn't seem to need my help at all, so I can wait.

Yeah... CAV, Robotech and Paulson Games don't exist, no siree.

My point was to have Heavy Gear stand on its own and not be overshadowed by all that you just mentioned, Albertorius.

I don't know much about the CAV KS, but Robotech was pretty much guaranteed its place since so many wargamers here were raised to see it as kids.

Mecha Front I have never actually looked at except in passing.

As for the Mobile Frame Zero, there were a few designs that others made I found visually appealing.

And I was a Gundam fan who wrote rules for the Mobile Suit Gundam Battle System.

BrandonKF wrote:

Yeah... CAV, Robotech and Paulson Games don't exist, no siree.

My point was to have Heavy Gear stand on its own and not be overshadowed by all that you just mentioned, Albertorius.

Mine was that there are already plenty "pure" mecha games and plenty of other scifi games with mecha that can do exactly the kind of combined arms game that HG can do. So it needs to acknowledge they are not the only fish in the pond, both to know what they are against and to do better.

For example: take a look at Dropzone Commander: that is a game that is a direct, concrete rival for the people's moneys. It's a small scale "army" game with a big emphases in combined arms operations, gorgeous minis and quite nice rules. They also have very, very competitive plastic starting armies, plastic starters with loads of scenery, cheap scenery packs... which will compete directly with HG. It is also a game that has the full core rules in the starter set, in full color, and are quite a bit less abstruse to read than the current HG Beta rules are (including the fluff, which is actually quite nice).

Saying that "HG stands on its own and is not overshadowed by anything" is, quite frankly, a bit like burying you head into the sand. I guess it's comforting, but does nothing to address any problem.

When I said "have stand on its own", it meant I would like for it to stand on its own merits. I understand there is competition, and I won't be stupid enough to say there isn't.

Anybody reading this thread this far already has a great idea that the Blitz rules have been spread out far too much, and not consistently enough to make the game catch and stick at the local gaming stores that had to watch their investment halt when the next iteration came out.

But I hope that this new ruleset, while still a Skirmish game of about 30-40 miniatures total, will be definitive enough for folks to reintroduce themselves to the game. And I think that the staff at the Pod know that they have their work cut out for them to achieve what they have put in place.

"This is your morning wake-up call."

So yes, no sticking heads in the sand, just pulling them out of the dark places where the sun doesn't shine and making the game fun again.

BrandonKF wrote:

So yes, no sticking heads in the sand, just pulling them out of the dark places where the sun doesn't shine and making the game fun again.

Amen to that. Let's see if they manage to do it.

Someone mentioned scales in a wrong way, maybe a typo, but:

Robotech and Battletech: 1/285 (6mm)
CAV and Dropzone Commander: 1/180 (10mm)
Heavy Gear: 1/144 (12mm)

HG is a pretty niche scale compared to other games. It might seem a stone throws away from 1/180, but that's the same difference between the old 25mm miniatures and the modern 30mm minis. You might get away with using the same terrain, but infantry/vehicles tend yto look out of scale to each other.

As Albertius mentioned, the Dropzone Commander plastics are beautiful and a joy to put together, if HG comes close to this quality I'll be ecstatic!

Cergorach wrote:
Someone mentioned scales in a wrong way, maybe a typo, but:

Robotech and Battletech: 1/285 (6mm)
CAV and Dropzone Commander: 1/180 (10mm)
Heavy Gear: 1/144 (12mm)

Actually I was thinking scale more in the "quantity of stuff in the board" sense and less in the "scale of the miniatures", but it's a good idea to clarify it, thank you.

Something that's pretty great about 1/144 scale, btw, is that it is basically "N" railroad scale, so you can use loads of stuff from that. If only there were futuristic railroad stuff...

I guess I'm...what? Third in command of the Hater Troll Army? So believe me when I say, earlier in this very thread in fact, that the Pod's off to a good start. I personally thanked Dave, the very Dave who only weeks ago deleted and locked threads containing questions of comments he didn't like, for starting to address those sorts of issues. He even got rid of that asinine "don't feed the trolls" bit in his sig, for crying out loud! This may not be the best word for it, but Dave (at least, and maybe Rob, too) really appears to have matured throughout this KS campaign.

And I've said as much.

But taking the step from ignoring and removing questions, to acknowledging some of them and beginning to address them, is very, very different from "everything is better now, because people pledged!"

I love Heavy Gear, not Dream Pod 9, thought I'd like to one day. At launch, there was no reason to believe anything had or would change about their behaviour. Completely forget about the low-detail models and bad rules. Forget that. The Pod has made bad decisions and acted poorly. That's all. That's the root concern. Asking private individuals to invest doesn't somehow fix the way the whole two people left at Dream Pod 9 have behaved, and it doesn't change that behaviour going forward.

But.

Now, a few weeks on, it looks like things are starting to - let's use that word again - mature. And, if you scroll up, Dave even agreed with me, Troll 1st. Class Firebreak, Hater 2nd Division (or however I should be properly classified as enemy), that the KS is a good starting point. Things aren't better. The KS isn't even done. But now there is reason to at least have a conversation that they could get better. That conversation still includes all the same questions as before, though. As I said, Dave is starting to address some of them. So.

Good start.

But this swaggering "Anybody else??" attitude doesn't do anything to help. "Look they made money that means you're wrong and everything is good now." Okay, whatever. Have fun in 18 months. I really hope the models are good, and that you get them.

What are these unanswered 'questions' people keep chucking around, I went through this entire thread and I don't see unanswered questions. Could you maybe list them? Then people could try to answer them.

Let's just boil the questions my fellow trolls have down to one, Cergorach:

What's changed? At the Pod, with Rob and Dave as business owners and operators, what's changed that makes THIS go round any more likely to stick?


I'm not going to continue to be part of this conversation past this post, because frankly I see a mod swooping down in my future, and besides, the conversation's not going anywhere new. Good luck to the people that pledged, and good luck to Dream Pod 9. I sincerely hope it all works out.

Honestly, I really do.

The Infinity model are clearly at a later stage of design than the Gears. Plus there is a very different kind of model aesthetic there. Also does it need to be said that there are months to go before the designs are finalized and sent to the mold cutter? If you have a criticism like low detail drop us an e-mail and let us know.

We will be reviewing the 3D models with our backers and fans to check the final design just like we did with the Scimitar discussion. There's no reason not to listen to feedback and make adjustments.

Sorry If I've missed any questions, there is a lot of social media to keep track of, not just here. Just post them again or send them to me in a message and I'll try to address them.

Rob is posting some additional updates and some teasers for hidden stretch goals today.

Cheers!
Dave

 Firebreak wrote:
Let's just boil the questions my fellow trolls have down to one, Cergorach:

What's changed? At the Pod, with Rob and Dave as business owners and operators, what's changed that makes THIS go round any more likely to stick?

Well, that wasn't actually a question that was asked, just a crapton of complaints (which weren't all wrong), but repeating the same thing over and over again is considered harping and not asking questions...

My impression: They looked into the Abyss and Bankruptcy stared back.

What changed from my pov:
- Doing a KS is a big chance for the modus operandi for dp9.
- Listening that much to discussions on their forums (and possibly elsewhere) was a big chance for dp9, after imput they went from a book KS to a miniatures KS, they changed that in a big way as well after further input.
- They listened to customer input during the KS, changed some goals around, didn't listen to everyone, which I think is a good thing, because not everyone should be listened to (99% of the people talk from their own pov and have no sense for business).
- Did dp9 do everything with this KS perfect, no. I didn't think that the $20k initial funding goal was fair, the reason I only pledged at $87k, others only at $105k...

As for the new rules:
- Open Alpha/Beta, this is new as far as I know, they might have done closed beta's, but that is a big difference.
- Living Rulebook free online (intention), this is a pretty big change.

Statements like no new rules every two years, two faction books per year, etc. Might fall on tired and deaf ears, because it's been heard before and things didn't change in the past.

Edit:
Stretch goals at the $200k and $215 have been added, it's the Naga and the Mammoth. How are we going to get those at this rate!?!? *despair* ;-)

 Firebreak wrote:

But this swaggering "Anybody else??" attitude doesn't do anything to help. "Look they made money that means you're wrong and everything is good now." Okay, whatever. Have fun in 18 months. I really hope the models are good, and that you get them.

Perhaps this medium isn't proper for this, Firebreak. But if I may... I don't know why precisely you classed yourself in the 'enemy' category. I have done my best not to use the word 'troll' in relation to you. And I really prefer not having to term anyone that.

JohnHwangDD made valid points, as did Albertorius, as did you. What assurances you have that Mr. Dubois and Dave are going to change can be found in the fact that I and a lot of other folks are putting money in the hat, so to speak, on good faith that the Pod will deliver.

Dream Pod 9 never failed me once in delivering on models, even when I was in Iraq. So yes, I will put it on good faith - again - that they will deliver here.

The rules, clearly, are the other half of this that will be worked on up until finalization. I am hoping, and if Dave or Mr. Dubois read this, I would suggest strongly that they start looking forward at delivery of the rulebook equal to the plastic molds.

Another key thing, which I have spoken about with others, is the attitude of the community. I don't know how else to put it, but wargamers need to ask themselves "why so serious?" sometimes. You put in a lot of time into this hobby, yes, but at the end of the day these games should be about fun. And yes, that means being goofy once in awhile. So hopefully my comments are taken in the spirit I give them, that of someone who wants to have fun.

God bless.

 Alpharius wrote:
I think this one's reached the 'good deal, definitely worth it' point now, right?

I mean, if you're at all interested in the minis/theme/scale/etc, of course!

I had pledged despite my existing concerns and previous investment. I dropped out a few days ago though.
If I decide to jump back in to something in this scale it will be Firestorm Planetfall (which seems to make better use of it's scale in terms of unit diversity) or with my existing NuCoal minis.
I've had enough of "great deals!" for things I'll probably never use. If they aren't gorgeous minis (and these really aren't, they just don't get across the size of the gears effectively IMO) then I'm not going down that road anymore.