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Let's say I take 3 units of purifiers from the nemesis strike force and put them all in Space wolf drop pods.

Turn one, drop pod assault happens and 2 arrive automatically. Can I then roll for the 3rd unit using the rites of teleportation special rule?

I would say yes, since rites of teleportation doesn't stipulate that they have the deep strike special rule, only that they be in deep strike reserve.

I encourage everyone to carefully consider the wording of the rules in question before commenting.

Some people say that you aren't rolling for the unit, but rather the pod. Rites of teleportation specifically allows you to roll for the unit in deep strike reserve.

Thoughts?

The unit in reserve is a Space Wolves Drop Pod that is either a part of a space wolf detachment or unbound. Because of that, no matter what it's transporting, the pod will be ineligible for rolling for reserves.

Master - you're rolling for the pod, as that is one of the units in reserve. You cannot bring that in turn one.

The pod is a separate unit from the unit inside.

if the pod had a rule that it could DS turn 1, then the unit inside could be brought in turn 1 without having DS themselves, or a rule that let them comes in turn 1.

if the POD does not have any rule, from its entry, or army list/detachment/formation, then it comes in as normal reserves despite the rules the unit inside the pod may have.

Drop Pod Assault: "Drop Pods and units emarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves."

Rites of Teleportation: "Instead of making Reserve Rolls from the start of your turn two, you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Formation that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one."

Combined Reserve Units: " In either case when making a Reserve Roll for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

At the end of DPA "The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally."

And, "Arriving by Deep Strike":
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves."

Seems to work. Or, at the least, you are rolling for the unit so that isn't the reason it wouldn't work.

The drop pod has no permission to arrive turn one. Cite specific permission for it to arrive turn one

Angelic wrote:

Combined Reserve Units: " In either case when making a Reserve Roll for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

And, "Arriving by Deep Strike":
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves."

The Purifiers are not Deep Striking. They ARE arriving from Deep Strike Reserves but they are NOT the ones Deep Striking and thus you can't roll for them. You must roll for the Transport since it is the only member of the Combined Unit that can roll. And since it is not in the NSF, it can't roll on turn 1.

Zimko wrote:

Angelic wrote:

Combined Reserve Units: " In either case when making a Reserve Roll for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

And, "Arriving by Deep Strike":
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves."

The Purifiers are not Deep Striking. They ARE arriving from Deep Strike Reserves but they are NOT the ones Deep Striking and thus you can't roll for them. You must roll for the Transport since it is the only member of the Combined Unit that can roll. And since it is not in the NSF, it can't roll on turn 1.

A Deep Striking Transport confers the Deep Strike USR to any embarked units. Per the Combined Unit rules as well as the rules for Deep Strike and Deep Striking Transports, an embarked unit that changes the reserve rules will effect the Transport the unit is embarked upon. As such and per RAW, the Purifiers in question can roll to arrive on Turn 1 via Rites of Teleportation. The relevant rules are cited in an above post by Angelic (/wink)

SJ

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The drop pod has no permission to arrive turn one. Cite specific permission for it to arrive turn one

I didnt see an answer to this - you are making a roll for the unit OR the transport vehicle. The transport vehicle is the unit that is functionally deepstriking (the DS USR is NOT conferred, the status of being in DSR is) so you ar erolling for the transport vehicle only.

The transport vehicle does not have permission to roll during turn 1. Please cite this permission

The roll is one roll, you as the deciding player choose to roll for the pod or unit.

So when you arrive, following the DS rules, do you place the Pod or a member of the unit?

If you place a member of the unit, you cannot apply any of the DPA rules, and cannot then place the pod.

Or, you follow the rules, place the pod, and then the unit inside is not the one you are rolling for. theyre along for the ride

arriving by deep strike actually requires you to deploy as outline in deepstrike, if the model inside the transport is not deploying via that method it is not arriving by deep strike, although it may/may not be deep striking inside the transport.

the end result is the unit arriving by deep strike (using the requried deploy rules from deep strike) is the transport, not the unit inside.

As the special rule does not state it applies to a transport the unit is embarked upon, and the transport itself does not have the special rule, there is no way the transport can actually use the special rule of the unit embarked upon it in this case.

Zimko wrote:

Angelic wrote:

Combined Reserve Units: " In either case when making a Reserve Roll for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

And, "Arriving by Deep Strike":
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves."

They ARE arriving from Deep Strike Reserves

This the only part that matters for Rites of Teleportation. The rule never actually mentions "arriving by Deep Strike. "

The Reserve rules say unit "and/or" the Transport. It's not necessary to choose either pod or unit because they are a combined unit. The Purifiers are a unit in DSR, you are rolling for them to come in, they are in the NSF. What other requirements of RoT must be met?

So by rolling for them, you're placing the purifier-marker yes? Then what about the pod, which has no permission to arrive turn one - just ignore that?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So by rolling for them, you're placing the purifier-marker yes? Then what about the pod, which has no permission to arrive turn one - just ignore that?

After the previous thread about ICs in NSF units using Rites, I'm surprised by your reversel of position on this. It's identical. Per the Combined Unit rules, the unit(s)+IC(s)+Transport roll once to arrive from Deep Strike Reserves, while Rites of Teleportation allows the NSF unit to roll on Turn 1 rather than Turn 2. If a non-NSF IC can benefit from Rites (your exact stance on that issue), the Transport can also benefit due to the Combined Unit rules.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So by rolling for them, you're placing the purifier-marker yes? Then what about the pod, which has no permission to arrive turn one - just ignore that?

After the previous thread about ICs in NSF units using Rites, I'm surprised by your reversel of position on this. It's identical. Per the Combined Unit rules, the unit(s)+IC(s)+Transport roll once to arrive from Deep Strike Reserves, while Rites of Teleportation allows the NSF unit to roll on Turn 1 rather than Turn 2. If a non-NSF IC can benefit from Rites (your exact stance on that issue), the Transport can also benefit due to the Combined Unit rules.

SJ

Ah...but is the Drop Pod part of the unit? The IC is irrefutably part of the unit. However, I don't think we need to re-hash that whole debacle.

The Drop Pod is "part of the unit" per the Embarktion rules and Combined Units rules. The Combined Unit does literally states Unit/Independent Characters/Transport.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The Drop Pod is "part of the unit" per the Embarktion rules and Combined Units rules. The Combined Unit does literally states Unit/Independent Characters/Transport.

SJ

No, that is not correct. The unit is still distinct from the transport vehicle. You still have two units. The actual combined unit rule was given above, and does not have that "quote" in it. There is no reversal here, the situations are distinct, as proven previously - only one unit vs absolutely 2 different units

The pod is always a separate unit from the unit embarked on it. This is true. The pod is the unit being rolled for, otherwise you are a) trying to DS the purifiers, who do not have the DS USR and b) you must place a purifier-marker, as that is the unit you are trying to arrive. Thus you never get to place the Drop Pod, and you never benefit from IG, as the DP itself NEVER has the NSF rule, and therefore DOES NOT have permission to arrive turn one. Half the units having permission is not sufficient.

Again, page and graph where the DP itself gains NSF, or some otherway it can DS turn 1.

I can understand the confusion from the rule:
"Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle."

But in this case i would agree with Nos. If you read the above, there is nothing to say that you roll for the Unit instead of rolling for the transport.

The rule just tells you to roll once, rather than roll transport and roll Unit, but not that the Unit gets to roll for its transport. The and/or clause does not help either, but RAI:
"roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle"
=
roll a single dice for the unit and its Independent Character.
or
roll a single dice for the unit and its Transport vehicle.

The rules for IC mean that in situation 1, you are rolling for the Unit. The rules for vehicles mean that for 2, you are rolling for the Vehicle.

In context, per the Combined Units rule, a Combat Squaded unit with an attached IC embarked on a Transport in Deep Strike Reserve rolls only one Die to enter play, despite being 4 separate units. If the Combat Squaded unit is an NSF Strike Squad, the unit has prrmission to roll for arrival on a Turn 1 per Rites of Teleportation.

Please demonstrate per RAW how the Combat Squaded Strikers with an attached Rune Priest in a SW Fast selection Drop Pod that did not arrive automatically on Turn 1 per Drop Pod Assault does not get the opportunity to roll to arrive on Turn 1 per Rites of Teleportion. Please be concise.

SJ

Context? Did I just see context being used in a discussion on using Rites of Teleportation on a Drop Pod?
You're already going against the very crystal clear intent of this rule (ie: to teleport), let's not drag context into this

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
In context, per the Combined Units rule, a Combat Squaded unit with an attached IC embarked on a Transport in Deep Strike Reserve rolls only one Die to enter play, despite being 4 separate units. If the Combat Squaded unit is an NSF Strike Squad, the unit has prrmission to roll for arrival on a Turn 1 per Rites of Teleportation.

Please demonstrate per RAW how the Combat Squaded Strikers with an attached Rune Priest in a SW Fast selection Drop Pod that did not arrive automatically on Turn 1 per Drop Pod Assault does not get the opportunity to roll to arrive on Turn 1 per Rites of Teleportion. Please be concise.

SJ

Simple. As already stated, the pod itself has no permission to turn up turn one. Please state, concisely, the exact page and graph that allows it yo turn up turn one. Specific permission is of course required to override the crystal clear rule stating you may start rolling turn 2.

Rites of Teleportation: "Instead of making Reserve Rolls from the start of your turn two, you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Formation that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one."

SJ

The drop pod is not a unit for pm the nsf formation. Argument refuted.

Additionally, if you claim you are rolling for the purifiers, they a) do not have the ds usr and b) that gives you no way to bring in the pod, as you must place a purifier marker model down, not the pod.

Try again. Again, page and graph allowing you to bring the POD in turn one.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The drop pod is not a unit for pm the nsf formation. Argument refuted.

Additionally, if you claim you are rolling for the purifiers, they a) do not have the ds usr and b) that gives you no way to bring in the pod, as you must place a purifier marker model down, not the pod.

Try again. Again, page and graph allowing you to bring the POD in turn one.

Point 1 - The Drop Pod does need to be a NSF unit to benefit from Rites due to the fact that the unit embarked is a NSF unit and has access to Rites. Per the Combined Unit rules, only one roll is required to deploy a unit composed of ICs, regular units, and a Transport. Rites kicks in if the combined unit is in Deep Strike Reserves, which can occur if the unit and ICs are embarked on a Drop Pod.

Point 2 - Per the Drop Pod Assault rules, you place the Drop Pod instead of the unit marker, and follow the rules for the Drop Pod scattering. In addition, the embarked unit immediately disembarks after scatter, and can still either Run/Shoot or Shoot/Run per Rites.

Point 3 - My example used Strikes, which already have the Deep Strike USR. However, in the case of Purifiers, the Unit of Purifiers are conferred the Deep Strike USR per the Deep Striking Transport rules. Rites only requires that the unit arrives via Deep Strike.

Rebuttal - Prove that a unit with an ability that is in a qualifying situation is not eligible to use that ability if the ability specifies the unit rather than every model in the unit. NSF units have Rites of Teleportation, and qualify to use Rites if they are arriving via Deep Strike. A NSF unit with an attached IC that arrives via Deep Strike are able to use Rites per the rules for ICs, the rules for combined units, and the broad wording of Rites. A NSF unit in a Battle Brother Fast choice Drop Pod is still a NSF unit arriving by Deep Strike, would still be able to Run/Shoot or Shoot/Run upon arrival via Deep Strike per Rites, and would have the ability to roll for arrival on Turn 1 per Rites due to the Combined Unit rules treating the NSF unit a and the BB Fast choice Transport as the same unit for deployment purposes.

SJ

So for the purpose of rolling for reserve they are treated as one unit?

But nothing allows them to be considered one unit for anything else?

Can you quote the Rule for Point 3?

The one I am thinking of states:
Units do not confer the Deep Strike special rule onto a Transport vehicle they are embarked inside. A Transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not.
- Deep Strike and Transports

Nothing about the Unit within gaining the Deep Strike Special Rule, just that the Transport does not lose access to Deep Strike if the Unit inside lacks this Special Rule.

Rebuttal - you still haven't proven they are one unit. They make one roll, but are not the same unit. The combined unit rule doesn't state they are, so they aren't.

Let's look at the drop pod assault rule. I don't have the marine codex on me, but doesn't it clearly state the remaining drop pods get put into reserve? So maybe you can elect to not use that USR for the space wolves pod but then you would only have one pod come in automatically. For example if you had 3 pods and two were normal pods and you had one space wolves pod with your strike squad. You would choose the order that special rules happen. You choose to have the NSF pod roll for reserves, then you get half your pods (2 remaining) which is only one. Anyways by everyone's definition of transports and this rule, I can stick centurions into a grey knight stormraven and deepstrike them all in turn one? Can stormravens deep strike still?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Rebuttal - you still haven't proven they are one unit. They make one roll, but are not the same unit. The combined unit rule doesn't state they are, so they aren't.

If a unit from a NSF is in deep strike reserves, you can roll for it turn 1.
The purifiers (or whatever gk unit you put in a drop pod) are in deep strike reserves. You can't deny that