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I'm not debating that that's what you wanted. I was simply refuting the statement that no commission painting service could do a white cape with depth. Instead of calling it impossible, you could've just said "I don't want depth/shading, I just wanted pure white".

 Toofast wrote:
I'm not debating that that's what you wanted. I was simply refuting the statement that no commission painting service could do a white cape with depth. Instead of calling it impossible, you could've just said "I don't want depth/shading, I just wanted pure white".

You are right, I should have phrased it, no commission painting service should paint depth into a cloak when the client requested just pure white. Anyways my point that this should not be faulted towards BTP but towards me still stands.

 M0ff3l wrote:
You are right, I should have phrased it, no commission painting service should paint depth into a cloak when the client requested just pure white. Anyways my point that this should not be faulted towards BTP but towards me still stands.

Of course they should, because adding subtle shading and depth to even "pure" colors is part of being a good painter. If the best they can do is literally plain white with no shading at all then they shouldn't be charging money for it.

 Peregrine wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
You are right, I should have phrased it, no commission painting service should paint depth into a cloak when the client requested just pure white. Anyways my point that this should not be faulted towards BTP but towards me still stands.

Of course they should, because adding subtle shading and depth to even "pure" colors is part of being a good painter. If the best they can do is literally plain white with no shading at all then they shouldn't be charging money for it.

So youre saying commission painters have to show off their skills even if its not what the client wants?

To be fair, he may actually discourage people from using BTP when he gets the models and uses them. With the paint jobs so far, and the solid white cloak, saying they were a commission job would probably turn people off to using BTP.

Still waiting for an answer to my question.

I actually think that's a pretty good looking model. I could have painted that plague marine a lot better than what is shown in the first picture. I cannot say the same about the Cypher model.

 squall018 wrote:
I actually think that's a pretty good looking model. I could have painted that plague marine a lot better than what is shown in the first picture. I cannot say the same about the Cypher model.

The Cypher model is an impressive conversion. But with the poor photo quality and the solid white cloak, it doesn't seem like the paint job is up to snuff.

 M0ff3l wrote:
So youre saying commission painters have to show off their skills even if its not what the client wants?

So you're honestly telling me that you'd rather have your models painted to the lowest possible standard? You would rather have a literal plain white cloak with no shading at all, instead of a cloak that looks like a real white cloak with subtle shading and color variation? I suppose you're entitled to badly painted models if that's what you want, but it sounds like this is really just a case of your bizarre need to defend BTP.

I'm also not sure how subtle, realistic shading is less preferable than just plain white, but it's his money.

Assuming that BTP is reading this and they want to show the community they're A game... is that it? Really?

Also, OP why would you request a flat white cloak? Do you have any evidnece that you did indeed request that?

 M0ff3l wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
Good conversion, terrible pictures. Even with the new color change there is absolutely no depth to the cape and it takes away from it.

As I said 3 posts above yours, I requested him to do just a flat white cloak.. I dont think any commission service on the world can do a plain white cloak with depth etc in it. So if you think its ugly, then you can tell me I dont have taste, but you cant blame it on the artist.

i run my own commission service, and i can paint white cloaks with depth just fine...
please try not to insult those of us who actually take pride in our work, make every effort to perfect our craft, and surpass our customers' expectations every time...

i actually think that the flat white you asked for looks better than their first attempt...
i don't think you have bad taste...
i think you made the right call...

getting defensive about BTP's quality is not necessary...
it's not as if you painted it yourself, pouring your heart and soul into the paintjob...
just say you like it, and leave it at that...
saying you don't think any of us who paint on commission can paint white cloaks with depth is just insulting...

in my opinion, the job of a commission service is to make the difficult colors look easy...

cheers
jah

It's impossible to do white cloaks with good depth and shading? Maybe someone had better inform the painters who win Golden Daemons.

 M0ff3l wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
You are right, I should have phrased it, no commission painting service should paint depth into a cloak when the client requested just pure white. Anyways my point that this should not be faulted towards BTP but towards me still stands.

Of course they should, because adding subtle shading and depth to even "pure" colors is part of being a good painter. If the best they can do is literally plain white with no shading at all then they shouldn't be charging money for it.

So youre saying commission painters have to show off their skills even if its not what the client wants?

are you honestly telling me that you would have been unhappy if they have succeeded in achieving a nice subtle grey shade in the folds the first time around???

the fact that you had to ask for a correction because you didn't like the look of the first attempt is understandable...
the fact that the painter attempted to show off his skills on the first try, and failed in your own eyes, is a different story from the flat white being fine because you requested it...
"the customer gets what the customer wants" is the mantra of the commission service...
that doesn't change the fact that the painter's original work was not to your satisfaction...
this just illustrates why WIP shots are so important, so problems can be identified, and changes made...
now the problem is solved, but you can't blame people for wondering why you would be happy with the simplest solution, when you are paying good money for a paintjob...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
Good conversion, terrible pictures. Even with the new color change there is absolutely no depth to the cape and it takes away from it.

As I said 3 posts above yours, I requested him to do just a flat white cloak.. I dont think any commission service on the world can do a plain white cloak with depth etc in it. So if you think its ugly, then you can tell me I dont have taste, but you cant blame it on the artist.

i run my own commission service, and i can paint white cloaks with depth just fine...
please try not to insult those of us who actually take pride in our work, make every effort to perfect our craft, and surpass our customers' expectations every time...

i actually think that the flat white you asked for looks better than their first attempt...
i don't think you have bad taste...
i think you made the right call...

getting defensive about BTP's quality is not necessary...
it's not as if you painted it yourself, pouring your heart and soul into the paintjob...
just say you like it, and leave it at that...
saying you don't think any of us who paint on commission can paint white cloaks with depth is just insulting...

in my opinion, the job of a commission service is to make the difficult colors look easy...

cheers
jah

Those parts right there make me love commission painters, When I see a model that makes my jaw drop, that makes my day.

Well the OP is just white knighting BTP and will say or do anything to make it look like that it isen't BTP's fault and that BTP is awesome. This review is as neutral as Rick Santorum would be on a gay law..

In other words this thread serves no purpose other then trying to mislead and throw dirt on Ten for lifting to the light how little BTP cares about their customers.

Let's keep in mind that BTP is watching the community, after they failed to force Ten to remove his review they instead came up with this farse in an attempt to keep fooling the community.

I'm not sure what the big deal is. I often use plain white on figures, without any shading. It works fine.


Of course, I call it 'primer' when I do it.

 M0ff3l wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
Good conversion, terrible pictures. Even with the new color change there is absolutely no depth to the cape and it takes away from it.

As I said 3 posts above yours, I requested him to do just a flat white cloak.. I dont think any commission service on the world can do a plain white cloak with depth etc in it. So if you think its ugly, then you can tell me I dont have taste, but you cant blame it on the artist.

I'm not as restrained as Joshua.

With this post you've lost any and all credibility with me, I was putting a certain acceptance of BTPs quality down to your taste, but now you're showing a wilful ignorance that I can't abide.

Good luck with the rest of the job, and congratulations to BTP on finding a client willing to pay for their substandard work.

Lets see the finished product in better quality pics before the lynch mob gets all worked up, shall we?

That said, I don't think Moff should take the harsh criticism of btp as personal as you're doing. Most of us here really appreciate you showing this process to the "world" (or at least us on Dakka )

Hardly. I, in common with every other reputable commission painter spend a great deal of time and effort in not only learning painting techniques, but also taking photos, posting forum showcases, facebook pages, blogs etc. etc.
To be confronted by someone who essentially has their fingers in their ears, singing 'la la la I'm not listening' to that information is exasperating, especially when they're purporting themselves as someone trying to provide a balanced viewpoint to something.

I get where you are comming from, and I hold no love for BTP - what little I had they lost with Tenebres case - but I would just like to see the finished product in this "best case scenario" so we can all judge with our wallets. But at the rate people are raging at Moff he will have abandoned ship before completion like he threatened to do (what he was expecting when he started this thread I'm really not sure of though...)

winterdyne-you should know that there are people out there that don't have sophisticated tastes. They would actually prefer some oil painting done by an "artist" in twenty minutes over a Gaugin or Picasso. That their tastes do not match your standards does not make their selection invalid as "art". Moff is entitled to his enjoyment of how his models are painted. If you don't think his standards are high enough then the problem is not with his standards but rather your intolerance of some "low brow" art lover. As I said some people like their figures "simple" without the need for some techniques that you feel are esential for your enjoyment. You may or may not agree with his taste but to fault him and call him a liar, as others have done, in that he likes the figure "as is" is not something a person who works in the art field should do.

The backlash is coming from the other thread where he implies that that thread's OP might be lying because he hasn't posted his correspondence with BTP. I think it's entirely justified to ask if such correspondence really happened in this case: that he actually requested for it to be flat white and not just trying to justify shoddy work.

 heartserenade wrote:
The backlash is coming from the other thread where he implies that that thread's OP might be lying because he hasn't posted his correspondence with BTP. I think it's entirely justified to ask if such correspondence really happened in this case: that he actually requested for it to be flat white and not just trying to justify shoddy work.

From the other thread where I asked for evidence once and when it was delivered never brought it up again.

This was a recent post of mine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oIVA9DKIJM

According to this video the client and artist had a lot of contact about the minatures. They are keeping me updated with WIP and samples aswell, even tho I didnt ask for it. Maybe they learned from their mistakes here, which still sucks for Tenebre, and I cant imagine why they didnt do it for him if he asked for it...

People are saying that I posted this to gloat and that "why they didnt do it for him if he asked for it..." means I am doubting him asking for it, which I am not. He showed me the emails where BTP said they would do that, and they didnt. That is fact. They think they see the intent of my post, but my intent was just expressing how baffled I am that BTP did not do it for a client who asked for it but now is doing it for clients who dont.

But because the majority of that thread read what other people say I say isntead of reading my actual post, it has now become "Moffel is calling Tenebre a liar again and is defending BTP".

Clearly even you dont know the whole story, as Tenebre HAS posted the part of his correspondence with BTP, which satisfied my ask of proof. However people seem to just ignore that and call me out on calling him a liar anyways. Its like you all just see what you want to see.


@ the general topic, that Cypher is my favorite miniature I have ever made, I really wanted him to be exactly how I wanted. That was the most important part of the entire commission. For 36,50$ they did an amazing job in my opinion. Also here is that email:

Hey Name!

He looks cool, however I'm not really a fan of the brown on the loin cloth and cape. If possible could you change it to just all white? The teeth are also a little too similar to the color of his face It seems like, and there is red spot on his cheek which makes it look like hes blushing . Also I see some primer showing on the pipes above his belt, the guns, the wrist holding the plasma pistol and a little on his right knee. Could you please adress these issues and send me some more pictures (also some more angles please, I cant really see the sides of the model and the top of his hood well from these pictures).

Thanks for keeping me updated!
-Name

and for people saying quotes is not proof,

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
winterdyne-you should know that there are people out there that don't have sophisticated tastes. They would actually prefer some oil painting done by an "artist" in twenty minutes over a Gaugin or Picasso. That their tastes do not match your standards does not make their selection invalid as "art". Moff is entitled to his enjoyment of how his models are painted. If you don't think his standards are high enough then the problem is not with his standards but rather your intolerance of some "low brow" art lover. As I said some people like their figures "simple" without the need for some techniques that you feel are esential for your enjoyment. You may or may not agree with his taste but to fault him and call him a liar, as others have done, in that he likes the figure "as is" is not something a person who works in the art field should do.

I don't really care about his taste. But stating he doesn't believe any commission studio could paint a plain white cloak with depth / shading (easy) indicates to me exactly where he's trying to take this thread. I didn't want to believe it, but honestly, if someone says they enjoy burning tenners, I'm gonna let them.

However, I will point out that it's stupid, and other people probably shouldn't follow suit.

 M0ff3l wrote:

 Toofast wrote:
I'm not debating that that's what you wanted. I was simply refuting the statement that no commission painting service could do a white cape with depth. Instead of calling it impossible, you could've just said "I don't want depth/shading, I just wanted pure white".

You are right, I should have phrased it, no commission painting service should paint depth into a cloak when the client requested just pure white. Anyways my point that this should not be faulted towards BTP but towards me still stands.

This has been adressed before winterdyne, and as you can see I admitted saying no commission service could was the wrong wording.

 M0ff3l wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
You are right, I should have phrased it, no commission painting service should paint depth into a cloak when the client requested just pure white. Anyways my point that this should not be faulted towards BTP but towards me still stands.

Of course they should, because adding subtle shading and depth to even "pure" colors is part of being a good painter. If the best they can do is literally plain white with no shading at all then they shouldn't be charging money for it.

So youre saying commission painters have to show off their skills even if its not what the client wants?

But you did't ask for a flat unshaded white, you asked for "just white". Would you have been upset if he'd added some depth to it?

It is his money, if he is happy with it, let him be happy with it.

It seems when he is not happy, he informs Blue Table and so far they have been responsive to him.

This is probably not the typical BTP experience due to how public this project is (and how public Ten's project is) but in the end, as long as OP is happy he got his money's worth, good for him.

There are plenty of pics being shared, and we know what he paid. We can all judge if we would have been happy with the service for the price.

Absolutely. No-one is going to change M0ff3l's mind if he's decided that he's happy.

All we can do is enjoy this level of transparency and make our own decisions about BTPs service and quality.

That a professional painter thought that shading bone-white with a highly saturated brown was a brilliant idea is ridiculous, but I think we are overlooking that M0ff3l had to point out and ask for correction of visible primer on a Level 5 mini.

It would seem the OP's objective of providing an unbiased, step-by-step insight into the workings of dealing with BTP has been of invaluable profit to the wargaming community (whether they achieved that objective or not).

The lesson to be learned is:
If you ask for crap, pay for crap and expect crap from a crap company then you will be nothing but delighted when you receive crap. (all subjective, of course)

Unfortunately this isn't much help when you pay more than good money, expecting good results from a reputedly good company and receive a steaming pile of not good in return, as happened in the case that kicked this all off.
If M0ff3l is happy with their results, then that is successful business for them and BTP. And it is wonderful evidence for the rest of us to decided who we would and who we would NOT like to get involved with. Thank you for your candidness in this regard M0ff3l.

(edit to include Blue Table Painting and Miniature Painting to the thread. Wouldn't want it to get missed in a google search)

Yeah M0ff3l, we all appreciate you for starting this thread and keeping this open. I am glad you are happy with what you are getting and sharing all these insights into working with Blue Table Painting.

There was a lot of confusion about working with miniature painting services before, but this has done a lot to clear up the confusion. I am glad you have proven that all anyone needs to do is communicate clearly for Blue Table Painting to do their best work. This clears up all the confusion started by that tenebre thread and makes it clear he never spoke with them.

Next time I am looking for a level 3 paint job for some miniatures I will be sure to think of Blue Table Painting. So thank you M0ff3l you are doing the entire community a service and proving a point.