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 grendel083 wrote:

NightHowler wrote:
Only the difference in wording found in the thunderwolf mount entry.

It's also found in the "Iron Steed" rule for bikes in the rulebook. Same terminology.

I'm all up for exploring new ideas, but I feel more support is needed for this one. A different way of writing things is all there is, no explanation as to what that difference means.

Who knows, an FAQ may change it all.

We can only hope.

How are they supposed to say that something increases the base value when they don't use the concept of a base value anymore?
- Nighthowler.

The very same question can be asked to you, if the concept of 'Base Value' has been removed by the game why would any Author tell is to increase this Value?

When the brothers of the VI Legion wake up in the ....... (morning? first time that week? what ever), After they say their prayers to the Allfather, before they put on their power armour, slip on their power fist, hop on their trusty thunder wolf, they are str 4. Just like every other Astartes ( since 2nd Ed). EVERY astartes from Chapter master to fresh scout recruit is Str 4. Every one of us who cares about this topic even a little bit, can recite the base stat line for a Astartes, 4/4/4/4/1/4/1/8. Anything that changes this is a Modifier. If there are multiple modifiers, then we have a clear rule as to how to get to the final #. If the Thunder Wolves themselves had Power Paws then i could accept str 10. They don't, its the Riders who ware them so its str 9.


This argument wont be setteld untill GW gets so many questions that they choke on them. If you want to help this happen please send GW a few questions. Here is the link to do so.


Gamefaqs@gwplc.com

Gamefaqs@gwplc.com

Gamefaqs@gwplc.com

Fill their inbox!

 grendel083 wrote:

NightHowler wrote:
Only the difference in wording found in the thunderwolf mount entry.

It's also found in the "Iron Steed" rule for bikes in the rulebook. Same terminology.

I'm all up for exploring new ideas, but I feel more support is needed for this one. A different way of writing things is all there is, no explanation as to what that difference means.

Who knows, an FAQ may change it all.

I will have to point out as well that Bikes follow the exact same rule (they are T4 "increased" to T5)

It has been said that ID counts all modifiers, but if any rule were to call upon a "base Toughness test", any on the S9 for TWC would have to test on T4 for bikers.
I'm quite sure most of the S9 side actually believes all Bikes/Jetbikes to be T5 "always". They would have to swap to the S10 side.

Consistency.

 grendel083 wrote:

NightHowler wrote:
Only the difference in wording found in the thunderwolf mount entry.

It's also found in the "Iron Steed" rule for bikes in the rulebook. Same terminology.

In case of bikes i would say that it isn't a modifier as used in other parts of the rules, because it states that its a bonus and states an increase to their toughness characteristic. This is very distinct from the wording used in most (haven't had time to check all) psychic powers for example which all talk about a -x or +x to their Strength/Toughness, not to their characteristic however, so that might be their way of telling us that its an increase to the base profile.

Right now however i play it as S9 as its a lot guessing RaI and only based on small differences in wording that do not have support (or are mentioned at all) in other parts of the BrB. (Like i said i think that it should be S10 but thats just my RaI and not my RaW interpretation).

 Lord Lorne Walkier wrote:
When the brothers of the VI Legion wake up in the ....... (morning? first time that week? what ever), After they say their prayers to the Allfather, before they put on their power armour, slip on their power fist, hop on their trusty thunder wolf, they are str 4. Just like every other Astartes ( since 2nd Ed). EVERY astartes from Chapter master to fresh scout recruit is Str 4. Every one of us who cares about this topic even a little bit, can recite the base stat line for a Astartes, 4/4/4/4/1/4/1/8. Anything that changes this is a Modifier. If there are multiple modifiers, then we have a clear rule as to how to get to the final #. If the Thunder Wolves themselves had Power Paws then i could accept str 10. They don't, its the Riders who ware them so its str 9.


This argument wont be setteld untill GW gets so many questions that they choke on them. If you want to help this happen please send GW a few questions. Here is the link to do so.


Gamefaqs@gwplc.com

Gamefaqs@gwplc.com

Gamefaqs@gwplc.com

Fill their inbox!

If you're saying that even thunderwolf cavalry are S9, then you are not only wrong but also unaware that the argument is only about wolf lords who take the thunderwolf mount.

When I buy a unit of thunderwolf cavalry, they come S5 from the start. Their profile says S5. When I buy them a powerfist it is S5 x2. The modifier from the powerfist modifies their profile and the bonus from the thunderwolf is already included in that.

When I buy a wolf lord, give him a thunderwolf mount, and then buy him a powerfist, the situation is unfortunately very different. The wolf lord comes out of the box at S4. The thunderwolf mount increases his strength to 5, and then the powerfist doubles it to 10. Since there is nothing in the rules written out that specifically says in clear language that the increase to his strength is an increase to his "base profile" many people argue that this means the wolf lord is S9. This same argument can not be applied to the cavalry models since their profile says S5. Anyone who says that the cavalry models are also S9 have to come up with a rule explaining why a profile of S5 adjusted by a powerfist of x2 comes out to 9.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

NightHowler wrote:
Only the difference in wording found in the thunderwolf mount entry.

It's also found in the "Iron Steed" rule for bikes in the rulebook. Same terminology.

I'm all up for exploring new ideas, but I feel more support is needed for this one. A different way of writing things is all there is, no explanation as to what that difference means.

Who knows, an FAQ may change it all.

I will have to point out as well that Bikes follow the exact same rule (they are T4 "increased" to T5)

It has been said that ID counts all modifiers, but if any rule were to call upon a "base Toughness test", any on the S9 for TWC would have to test on T4 for bikers.
I'm quite sure most of the S9 side actually believes all Bikes/Jetbikes to be T5 "always". They would have to swap to the S10 side.

Consistency.

Are you saying that even bikes like swiftclaw bikers or ravenwing bike units count their unmodified T as 4? Or only characters who take a bike as wargear?

NightHowler wrote:
Are you saying that even bikes like swiftclaw bikers or ravenwing bike units count their unmodified T as 4? Or only characters who take a bike as wargear?

I'm saying all bikes, yes. Or at least all models with "bike" in their Wargear. Just as the Thunderwolf is in some model's wargear.

Since the 5th Ed Book in 2009 Thundervolves were pretty much a "form of Bike" and the rules very very similar.

 BlackTalos wrote:

NightHowler wrote:
Are you saying that even bikes like swiftclaw bikers or ravenwing bike units count their unmodified T as 4? Or only characters who take a bike as wargear?

I'm saying all bikes, yes. Or at least all models with "bike" in their Wargear. Just as the Thunderwolf is in some model's wargear.

Since the 5th Ed Book in 2009 Thundervolves were pretty much a "form of Bike" and the rules very very similar.

So even though the profile is now T5 instead of the old T4(5), you still believe that the unmodified toughness is 4? I'm not clear how you come to that conclusion, can you explain your reasoning to me?

NightHowler wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

NightHowler wrote:
Are you saying that even bikes like swiftclaw bikers or ravenwing bike units count their unmodified T as 4? Or only characters who take a bike as wargear?

I'm saying all bikes, yes. Or at least all models with "bike" in their Wargear. Just as the Thunderwolf is in some model's wargear.

Since the 5th Ed Book in 2009 Thundervolves were pretty much a "form of Bike" and the rules very very similar.

So even though the profile is now T5 instead of the old T4(5), you still believe that the unmodified toughness is 4? I'm not clear how you come to that conclusion, can you explain your reasoning to me?

If you look at the Armoured Steed rule, it's an increase to the toughness value.
It says that in the case of units with a bike as their default equipment, this bonus has already been included in their profile.
They've had a stat increase, the same as a character that purchases a bike as Wargear.

Thunderwolf Cavalry are also in the same boat. If you look at their Wargear you'll see that the mount is listed. The stat increases have been included in their profile, but it is still a stat increase. So the Strength argument isn't just limited to Characters with the mount, but anyone with the mount.

 grendel083 wrote:
If you look at the Armoured Steed rule, it's an increase to the toughness value.
It says that in the case of units with a bike as their default equipment, this bonus has already been included in their profile.
They've had a stat increase, the same as a character that purchases a bike as Wargear.

Thunderwolf Cavalry are also in the same boat. If you look at their Wargear you'll see that the mount is listed. The stat increases have been included in their profile, but it is still a stat increase. So the Strength argument isn't just limited to Characters with the mount, but anyone with the mount.

Then just like I have to admit that the wolf lord with a fist is S9 WAR, I'm afraid I would need you to show me where it says in the rules that a profile of S5 is actually a modified S4 +1.

I'm afraid you'll have a hard time finding a rule for that one. I'm fully aware that it says the bonuses for a thunderwolf mount are already included in the profile of thunderwolf cavalry, but nowhere does it give an original strength of 4. We are only given a profile with S5. Sure, we can do the math and subtract 1, but show me in the rules where we're supposed to do that. Sure, all know that they are marines, and we all know that a marines strength is 4, but we can't use fluff or prior knowledge to determine the rules - if we could, I'd have a much stronger argument for my wolf lord being S10.

I'm afraid that this argument does not hold water. I would need to see a rule specifically stating that a bonus already included in a profile is the same thing as a modifier, and it would need to be spelled out in exactly those words, or it just doesn't hold up.

Edited to add: I'll admit that RAW my wolf lord on a mount with a powerfist is S9, but I can't see any way for someone to prove that the cavalry are the same.

The unmodified toughness is 4, because you are told the toughness has been modified (increased by 1) by the mount.

Increase by 1 is long hand for add 1. Otherwise, as Happyjew (I believe, Jet lagged atm!) was trying to point out, mathematically you cannot complete the required operation, and a TWM lord is only S8 with a power fist

(If you are saying increase by 1 is NOT equivalent longhand to +1, you CANNOT use the mathematical operator to find the resutl of increasing by 1, meaning the S stays at 4. A pfist then doubles this to S8.)

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The unmodified toughness is 4, because you are told the toughness has been modified (increased by 1) by the mount.

Increase by 1 is long hand for add 1. Otherwise, as Happyjew (I believe, Jet lagged atm!) was trying to point out, mathematically you cannot complete the required operation, and a TWM lord is only S8 with a power fist

(If you are saying increase by 1 is NOT equivalent longhand to +1, you CANNOT use the mathematical operator to find the resutl of increasing by 1, meaning the S stays at 4. A pfist then doubles this to S8.)

I think you've missed a few paragraphs here. I admit that RAW the wolf lord is S9. But the claim that cavalry are S9 is ridiculous.

The profile is S5. The modifier I get from giving them a power fist is x2. 5x2=10.

If the cavalry came S4 and I had to buy them a mount for +1, and then a powerfist for x2, then I'd admit that they are also S9, but they're not, because they don't come as S4.

The Cavalry have the same peace of wargear as the Lord.

Their profile says S5 and we know a +1 Str bonus has been added.

In addition, a model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Wounds characteristics by 1 (these bonuses are already included in the profiles of models that have a Thunderwolf mount as part of their standard wargear).

The rule calls it out as a bonus and that it was included in the profile. If it is a modifier (which I believe it is) then you have to calculate any new modifiers (such as power fist) with this in mind. So clearly their base str is currently 4 + 1 and thus with a power fist is 4 x 2 + 1 = 9. They should have kept the profile as 4 (5) for these kinds of things but in the process of streamlining rules they decided to take a shortcut.

NightHowler wrote:

If you're saying that even thunderwolf cavalry are S9, then you are not only wrong but also unaware that the argument is only about wolf lords who take the thunderwolf mount.

Do you realize that it's completely aberrant (even if you are right, it's against common sense)

Toughness was clarify because of Instant death before 6th ed, we don't care anymore.

In the new SW codex, TW are in the list of TWC equipments. It changes everything !!!!

"Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model's characteristics..."
Increase a value, +1, bonus of 1... They all mean the same thing...
The bonus is included in the profile, and so ?

NightHowler wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The unmodified toughness is 4, because you are told the toughness has been modified (increased by 1) by the mount.

Increase by 1 is long hand for add 1. Otherwise, as Happyjew (I believe, Jet lagged atm!) was trying to point out, mathematically you cannot complete the required operation, and a TWM lord is only S8 with a power fist

(If you are saying increase by 1 is NOT equivalent longhand to +1, you CANNOT use the mathematical operator to find the resutl of increasing by 1, meaning the S stays at 4. A pfist then doubles this to S8.)

I think you've missed a few paragraphs here. I admit that RAW the wolf lord is S9. But the claim that cavalry are S9 is ridiculous.

The profile is S5. The modifier I get from giving them a power fist is x2. 5x2=10.

If the cavalry came S4 and I had to buy them a mount for +1, and then a powerfist for x2, then I'd admit that they are also S9, but they're not, because they don't come as S4.

Yes they do. They are S4, modified to S5. As the rule for the mount - which they have as wargear, so the rule ABSOLUTELY applies to them - states they have been increased by 1

Do you agree that an increase of 1 to S is the same as +1S?

NightHowler wrote:
So even though the profile is now T5 instead of the old T4(5), you still believe that the unmodified toughness is 4? I'm not clear how you come to that conclusion, can you explain your reasoning to me?

I never said i believed anything... I said anyone who advocated that TWC (& Lords) are S4 (+1 Increase) to be S9 must also advocate Bikers are T4 for any Toughness test.

I personally believe that there is a big confusion and am not taking a side, mainly because of the removal of the word "Base" stat.




Ed:

My next question to all (both sides) is this: If a TWC Unit is required to make a Strength test, are we rolling 4+ or 5+ to Fail?

Thoughts/opinions?

 BlackTalos wrote:
I said anyone who advocated that TWC (& Lords) are S4 (+1 Increase) to be S9 must also advocate Bikers are T4 for any Toughness test.

I will gladly concede to that on the condition you show me where the rules say Characteristic Tests are taken on unmodified characteristics.

 Happyjew wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
I said anyone who advocated that TWC (& Lords) are S4 (+1 Increase) to be S9 must also advocate Bikers are T4 for any Toughness test.

I will gladly concede to that on the condition you show me where the rules say Characteristic Tests are taken on unmodified characteristics.

My added question should show that, having read the rules for Characteristic Tests, i don't actually know...
It says to take the profile value. So base value?

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
I said anyone who advocated that TWC (& Lords) are S4 (+1 Increase) to be S9 must also advocate Bikers are T4 for any Toughness test.

I will gladly concede to that on the condition you show me where the rules say Characteristic Tests are taken on unmodified characteristics.

My added question should show that, having read the rules for Characteristic Tests, i don't actually know...
It says to take the profile value. So base value?

And I would point out that Toughness characteristic on a SM Biker's profile says "5".

I would also point out that the edit was posted while I was replying. Which is why I missed it.

The multiple modifiers rules states that there are pieces of wargear that modify the profile.

Nowhere in that rule does it state that we are to include modifications that happen before the profile is printed in the codex.

Just as I now admit it is a stretch to try and prove WAR that a wolf lord with a mount and a powerfist is S10, it is an equally large stretch to try and claim that we have to deconstruct the profile of a model and then use the multiple modifiers rule to reconstruct them to come to a final value.

Modifiers modify the profile. If the bonus from wargear is already included in the profile then it can not modify the profile. It's already included. Therefore, a thunderwolf cavalry with a profile S5 and a powerfist modifier of x2, would have a final strength of 10.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:
The Cavalry have the same peace of wargear as the Lord.

Their profile says S5 and we know a +1 Str bonus has been added.

They have the same wargear, but not the same profile. A modifier modifies something. You told me that. But if a bonus is "already included in the profile" how does it modify the profile?

If you can explain to me in clear terms how something already included in the profile then also modifies that profile, it may be easier for me to see your side.

With the wolf lord, the reason he is S9 and not S10 is that the mount modifies his profile and the powerfist modifies his profile. I don't like it, but that's how the rules are written.

With the cavalry, the bonuses from the mount are already included in the profile and so they can not be included in the list of "modifiers", because they're already a part of the profile you're trying to modify.

 Happyjew wrote:
And I would point out that Toughness characteristic on a SM Biker's profile says "5".

I would also point out that the edit was posted while I was replying. Which is why I missed it.

The profile on the TWC says "5" and "5" for S & T, so i start doubting what to read from the rules when:

 Ghaz wrote:
From the 'Thunderwolf Mount' entry in Codex Space Wolves:

In addition, a model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Wounds characteristics by 1 (these bonuses are already included in the profiles of models that have a Thunderwolf mount as part of their standard wargear).

With that, I have to agree with DeathReaper and blaktoof that a Thunderwolf Cavalry Pack Leader with a power fist should be striking at S9.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The strength increase of the TWC mount is also a modifier.

"Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model’s characteristics positively or negatively by adding to it (+1, +2, etc.)..." Models and Units chapter, Modifiers section).

The Thunderwolf is a piece of wargear that modifies a model’s characteristics positively by adding to it.

An increase is an addition. a decrease is a subtraction. (As per standard English definitions which we must use here because the BRB does not define increase).

 grendel083 wrote:

NightHowler wrote:
Actually cavalry do have it. And most people play it as a S5 hammer of wrath since the TWC profile is an unmodified S5.

Thats understandable, most people don't look beyond the profile. Doesn't mean it's correct.

It's funny, because when I started posting in this thread it was just to say that I don't think we can tell from the rules whether it's S10 or S9, but the more we talk about it, the more I'm convinced that it's S10.

When I started I was convinced it was S10, now I'm seeing it as S9.

A change to a stat that isn't a modifier, just doesn't fit for me. There isn't enough rules to back this up.

Now in reply to:

NightHowler wrote:
The multiple modifiers rules states that there are pieces of wargear that modify the profile.

Nowhere in that rule does it state that we are to include modifications that happen before the profile is printed in the codex.

Just as I now admit it is a stretch to try and prove WAR that a wolf lord with a mount and a powerfist is S10, it is an equally large stretch to try and claim that we have to deconstruct the profile of a model and then use the multiple modifiers rule to reconstruct them to come to a final value.

Modifiers modify the profile. If the bonus from wargear is already included in the profile then it can not modify the profile. It's already included. Therefore, a thunderwolf cavalry with a profile S5 and a powerfist modifier of x2, would have a final strength of 10.

The main problem that ultimately stems from this is:

How can you have the same model (Space Marine on Thunderwolf) be S10 because his profile is written "S5", and a S9, just because the book reads "S4"?
Both are Space Marines on <Equipment> Thunderwolf.
Both have "(these bonuses are already included in the profiles of models that have a Thunderwolf mount as part of their standard wargear)" bonuses to their S&T

Except they do have the same profile, only one has the stat increase already included in what the book has printed and the other, we need to add it ourselves then write down the new profile (That being Str 5 instead of Str 4).

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except they do have the same profile, only one has the stat increase already included in what the book has printed and the other, we need to add it ourselves then write down the new profile (That being Str 5 instead of Str 4).

So you also agree, for consistency, that their Hammer of Wrath is S4. You also agree that any Bikers (Bike, Jetbike) will only pass base Toughness tests on 4 or lower (if Marines) or 3 or lower (Eldar)?

 BlackTalos wrote:


The main problem that ultimately stems from this is:

How can you have the same model (Space Marine on Thunderwolf) be S10 because his profile is written "S5", and a S9, just because the book reads "S4"?
Both are Space Marines on <Equipment> Thunderwolf.
Both have "(these bonuses are already included in the profiles of models that have a Thunderwolf mount as part of their standard wargear)" bonuses to their S&T

Because the "multiple modifiers" rule says that some wargear modifies a profile. Then it gives us rules for how to apply those modifiers.

The profile for a Wolf Lord is S4. The thunderwolf mount in the wargear section says that it increases S,T,W,and A by 1. The powerfist is x2 to strength. The "multiple modifiers" rule says that we multiply first and add last. Therefore (4x2)+1=9.

The profile for a Thunderwolf Cavalry model is S5. It has the mount listed in it's wargear, but the bonus is already included in the profile. The rules for "multiple modifiers" say nothing about deconstructing profiles and then reconstructing them, it only says what to do when there are multiple modifiers to a profile. Since the bonus to Strength and Toughness are already included in the profile, they can not be considered modifiers. They're already in there. The profile is S5, T5.

Because of this difference, when a thunderwolf cavalry model takes a powerfist, the multiple modifiers rule does not take effect. His profile is already S5, so we only consider modifiers to that. The powerfist is the only modifier of x2. Now if there are additional modifiers that come later, like from furious charge, then we would follow the "multiple modifiers" rule and multiply first, add last.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except they do have the same profile, only one has the stat increase already included in what the book has printed and the other, we need to add it ourselves then write down the new profile (That being Str 5 instead of Str 4).

So you also agree, for consistency, that their Hammer of Wrath is S4. You also agree that any Bikers (Bike, Jetbike) will only pass base Toughness tests on 4 or lower (if Marines) or 3 or lower (Eldar)?

Well since HoW goes off of unmodified Str, yes, since the increase is not included since it is a modifier to the Str.

Not sure what a base toughness test is, but if something calls for an unmodified Toughness test, then bikers would use 4 or lower if Marines or 3 or lower if Eldar.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except they do have the same profile, only one has the stat increase already included in what the book has printed and the other, we need to add it ourselves then write down the new profile (That being Str 5 instead of Str 4).

So you also agree, for consistency, that their Hammer of Wrath is S4. You also agree that any Bikers (Bike, Jetbike) will only pass base Toughness tests on 4 or lower (if Marines) or 3 or lower (Eldar)?

Well since HoW goes off of unmodified Str, yes, since the increase is not included since it is a modifier to the Str.

Not sure what a base toughness test is, but if something calls for an unmodified Toughness test, then bikers would use 4 or lower if Marines or 3 or lower if Eldar.

Ok, consistent. I just have a memory of all YMDC agreeing that Marine Bikes made unmodified Toughness tests on their "base stat" of 5. I guess things change...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NightHowler wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:


The main problem that ultimately stems from this is:

How can you have the same model (Space Marine on Thunderwolf) be S10 because his profile is written "S5", and a S9, just because the book reads "S4"?
Both are Space Marines on <Equipment> Thunderwolf.
Both have "(these bonuses are already included in the profiles of models that have a Thunderwolf mount as part of their standard wargear)" bonuses to their S&T

Because the "multiple modifiers" rule says that some wargear modifies a profile. Then it gives us rules for how to apply those modifiers.

The profile for a Wolf Lord is S4. The thunderwolf mount in the wargear section says that it increases S,T,W,and A by 1. The powerfist is x2 to strength. The "multiple modifiers" rule says that we multiply first and add last. Therefore (4x2)+1=9.

The profile for a Thunderwolf Cavalry model is S5. It has the mount listed in it's wargear, but the bonus is already included in the profile. The rules for "multiple modifiers" say nothing about deconstructing profiles and then reconstructing them, it only says what to do when there are multiple modifiers to a profile. Since the bonus to Strength and Toughness are already included in the profile, they can not be considered modifiers. They're already in there. The profile is S5, T5.

Because of this difference, when a thunderwolf cavalry model takes a powerfist, the multiple modifiers rule does not take effect. His profile is already S5, so we only consider modifiers to that. The powerfist is the only modifier of x2. Now if there are additional modifiers that come later, like from furious charge, then we would follow the "multiple modifiers" rule and multiply first, add last.

I understood the whole debate from the 7 Pages i've been through...

I'm just saying that is very inconsistent. I used to be in the S10 for both models camp, now undecided and just reading through opinions...
(That side use to be: Bikes made unmodified Toughness tests on their "base stat" of 5.
TWC made unmodified Strength tests on their "base stat" of 5.
Lord on TWC made unmodified Strength tests on their "base stat" of 5 (where base stat increase given by the TW is included.)

Unfortunately the rule lost the word "Base", so i've migrated to undecided until clear RaW given by any side chooses for me or we get an FAQ of sorts....

regarding characterstic tests, IE toughness tests for bikes

Models with Multiple Profiles Where a model has more than one value for the same characteristic, a characteristic test is always taken against the highest of the values.

so the test would be taken against the higher value, unless it would state to use the unmodified characteristic specifically.

 BlackTalos wrote:


I understood the whole debate from the 7 Pages i've been through...

I'm just saying that is very inconsistent. I used to be in the S10 for both models camp, now undecided and just reading through opinions...
(That side use to be: Bikes made unmodified Toughness tests on their "base stat" of 5.
TWC made unmodified Strength tests on their "base stat" of 5.
Lord on TWC made unmodified Strength tests on their "base stat" of 5 (where base stat increase given by the TW is included.)

Unfortunately the rule lost the word "Base", so i've migrated to undecided until clear RaW given by any side chooses for me or we get an FAQ of sorts....

I agree that it's inconsistent, but there is an inconsistency in the profiles for Wolf Lord and Thunderwolf Cavalry. I still feel very strongly that a Wolf Lord with a mount and a powerfist is supposed to be S10, but unfortunately, the rules as written make this hard to prove.

As to "base" stats, getting rid of that concept was probably supposed to make this less complicated, but failed to do so. Since we no longer have the concept of "base" stats, we can only use the profile we are given when trying to interpret the rules. The Wolf Lord is S4, T4, and the Thunderwolf Cavalry model is S5, T5.

Edited to add: I must say that while I find it extremely dificult to prove that a Wolf Lord with a mount and powerfist is S10 using the RAW, I'm 100% confident that if GW addresses it in an FAQ they will state that he is supposed to be S10. I am also 100% confident that they will probably fail to clarify why (because without the concept of base stats it will be difficult to word it well).

The TW is S4+1, as you are told that the bonus has already been included. It has already been modified, so you absolutely *can* derive their original, unmodified S and T (and W...) if you are required to do so. You are required to do so when hitting with powerfists, when called to make a S test on unmodified strength, etc.

You cannot honestly say that they are "unmodified" S5; we KNOW they are not as we have been told their profile was modified. We know how it has been modified, exactly, so we can, and therefore MUST, derive the unmodified value if called upon to do so.

Absolute RAW, both TWC and TWM lords are S9 with powerfists.