Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Someone working full time on minimum wage as a laborer. Works from 8-6. Wakes up, all libraries are closed, gets home from work, all libraries are closed. Mc Donalds doesnt allow for much, if any use of their free wireless and usually they are off.

Where do they get the internet for an emergency banking on a wedsnday night? No banks are open?

Working full time usually means you are working when free wifi areas are open.

The internet is also a great tool for job searching, learning, getting into a study, finding cheap items of clothing or furniture and so on. All of which can not be done for most full time workers on the minimum wage, if they cannot afford a basic internet package.

 Slarg232 wrote:
I honestly don't feel that Internet Connection should be a required item in Living Wages; Libraries have full access to the internet for free/rather cheaply. While you could argue against it for gas/car maintenance, a bike is cheaper, healthier, and in general better for you.

Moving it along nicely, yes we are.

Now someone make up the approved food list for the poors, something about how they should do manual labor instead of college, 2 jobs at a time, and so on, so we have all the boxes checked.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Mc Donalds doesnt allow for much, if any use of their free wireless and usually they are off.

You also need one of those fancy devices that living wage people aren't allowed to own to even do that.

In my opinion I'd let the free market decide for this problem. You might ask why, but the answer is simple: Determining a universal minimun wage which is large is enough for living is almost impossible, as it would have to be determined for each person induvidually, so having a market to determine the minnimun wage should be the easiest solution.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Someone working full time on minimum wage as a laborer. Works from 8-6. Wakes up, all libraries are closed, gets home from work, all libraries are closed. Mc Donalds doesnt allow for much, if any use of their free wireless and usually they are off.

8-6?

Sorry, that's not the hours of, well, pretty much any American library. They're almost uniformly open until 8PM during the week, some 9PM.

Oh, and then they're all open on the weekends. Because, if you're only working 40 hours, you have time open somewhere.

Where do they get the internet for an emergency banking on a wedsnday night? No banks are open?

Emergency Banking on a Wednesday night? What kind of emergency? The kind where you need money? That's what ATMs are for.

The kind where you need to transfer money? None of that will be processed until the next day's business hours anyways.

The kind where your debit card isn't working? That's what the 800 number on the back of your card is for.

Working full time usually means you are working when free wifi areas are open.

This is just nonsense. I can think of at least 8 places within 5 minutes of my house that have free wifi and are open until 10PM.

 Ouze wrote:

 Slarg232 wrote:
I honestly don't feel that Internet Connection should be a required item in Living Wages; Libraries have full access to the internet for free/rather cheaply. While you could argue against it for gas/car maintenance, a bike is cheaper, healthier, and in general better for you.

Moving it along nicely, yes we are.

Now someone make up the approved food list for the poors, something about how they should do manual labor instead of college, 2 jobs at a time, and so on, so we have all the boxes checked.

I disagree (mostly) with almost all of those; "approved food list" shouldn't exist; if someone wants to be poor and buy Cigs/Alcohol (with their own money), than see my Sig for my opinion on that.

Also, while I have no idea HOW to actually do it, I would love for College to be cheaper/freemium, as I am a firm believer in education (Though we will need a far better education system before that becomes a good idea).

Anyone who wants a fair bit of pocket money should work two jobs. Doesn't matter if they are poor or middle class. Should it be required? No, absolutely not. Should it be an option? Why not?

Yep. Minimum wage was just raised to $15 in San Francisco, but that doesn't necessarily mean you can live off it in that region.

 cincydooley wrote:

This is just nonsense. I can think of at least 8 places within 5 minutes of my house that have free wifi and are open until 10PM.

So then someone should be able to afford a laptop on the "living wage", but no internet connection?

"Free" wifi usually comes with a required purchase of coffee that will land someone on the "how can they be poor if they can afford coffee here" list.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Someone working full time on minimum wage as a laborer. Works from 8-6. Wakes up, all libraries are closed, gets home from work, all libraries are closed. Mc Donalds doesnt allow for much, if any use of their free wireless and usually they are off.

Where do they get the internet for an emergency banking on a wedsnday night? No banks are open?

Working full time usually means you are working when free wifi areas are open.

The internet is also a great tool for job searching, learning, getting into a study, finding cheap items of clothing or furniture and so on. All of which can not be done for most full time workers on the minimum wage, if they cannot afford a basic internet package.

Can't use the internet without a computer and IPhone device.

 daedalus wrote:
So then someone should be able to afford a laptop on the "living wage", but no internet connection?

No bro, they should get a tablet from one of those rent to own places where they can save money by just paying $20 a month for 24 months.

Not a good tablet though, just like a used first gen kindle fire.

 daedalus wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

This is just nonsense. I can think of at least 8 places within 5 minutes of my house that have free wifi and are open until 10PM.

So then someone should be able to afford a laptop on the "living wage", but no internet connection?

What kind of Laptop are we talking?

A $500 Surf the Interwebs type of Laptop? Or Alienware 5000 Custom Gaming Laptop with SOOOOOO many bells and whistles it's MADE of bells and whistles?

 d-usa wrote:
"Free" wifi usually comes with a required purchase of coffee that will land someone on the "how can they be poor if they can afford coffee here" list.

Christ, next thing you know they'll have refrigerators like some kind of Rockefeller.

 d-usa wrote:
"Free" wifi usually comes with a required purchase of coffee that will land someone on the "how can they be poor if they can afford coffee here" list.

Dude. Doesn't matter if you're poor or not, NO ONE can afford Starbucks.

 daedalus wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

This is just nonsense. I can think of at least 8 places within 5 minutes of my house that have free wifi and are open until 10PM.

So then someone should be able to afford a laptop on the "living wage", but no internet connection?

Heaven forbid you sacrifice something to save for something else.

You can get a Chromebook for less than $200. According to MIT's lovely little calculator, saving your discretionary budget for three months will get you there just fine.

Or, you know, you can use the free ones at the library.

minimum wage should be just that, the minimum you can pay someone per hour at a job...
its simple enough to get.


living should be just that, a wage that allows for a person to reasonably live... its a bit more complicated because do things like "being able to support 2+ depandant" fall into your living wage, or theirs?


the issue most people have, is that not only can they not agree on what a living wage should be, but they also think the minimum you should be allowed to pay anyone should be a living wage.

Lots of people have verry different opinions on "living" wages, but once people are expecting one person working at mc donalds to be able to support themselves and multiple dependents, its crossing over into fantasy land.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Someone working full time on minimum wage as a laborer. Works from 8-6. Wakes up, all libraries are closed, gets home from work, all libraries are closed. Mc Donalds doesnt allow for much, if any use of their free wireless and usually they are off.

8-6?

Sorry, that's not the hours of, well, pretty much any American library. They're almost uniformly open until 8PM during the week, some 9PM.

Oh, and then they're all open on the weekends. Because, if you're only working 40 hours, you have time open somewhere.

Where do they get the internet for an emergency banking on a wedsnday night? No banks are open?

Emergency Banking on a Wednesday night? What kind of emergency? The kind where you need money? That's what ATMs are for.

The kind where you need to transfer money? None of that will be processed until the next day's business hours anyways.

The kind where your debit card isn't working? That's what the 800 number on the back of your card is for.

Working full time usually means you are working when free wifi areas are open.

This is just nonsense. I can think of at least 8 places within 5 minutes of my house that have free wifi and are open until 10PM.

As I said in my first comment, America is a very different place. I haven't been to America (and thank goodness for that). You cant transfer money between accounts on an atm here, transferring money happens in like 3 hours too, nor do our library staff have to work oddly long hours or weekends (they are people too) so outside of take out foods and the theater most places are closed by the time most people finish work.

I still think internet should be a basic need for a full time worker. I dont care if YOUR house has internet within 5 minutes for free. Mine doesnt. Unless I wanna travel by train to wellington (over an hour away) on a week night. The library is closed and so on. So why not ensure the majority of people have that little bit (its not expensive for internet I assume) of money to spare for an internet connection? Just encase they dont have internet at 8PM within even half an hour of their place.

Regarding the internet...

Let me emphasize something.... especially how important this is for the younger peeps, in their early 30s and below: internet access is a fundamental requirement of civilized life.

I dare you to confront these young folks and inform them that this a luxury. You are imperiling something almost as important as water or power or gas for your car.

They know nothing else.

 Swastakowey wrote:
[As I said in my first comment, America is a very different place. I haven't been to America (and thank goodness for that).

hey.... we're deep frying butter now. Just saying, you don't know what you're missing.

 whembly wrote:
Regarding the internet...

Let me emphasize something.... especially how important this is for the younger peeps, in their early 30s and below: internet access is a fundamental requirement of civilized life.

I dare you to confront these young folks and inform them that this a luxury. You are imperiling something almost as important as water or power or gas for your car.

They know nothing else.

I AM a 20 something who spends 6 hours or so on his computer.

Please do not act as though people in my age group are incapable of seperating themselves from their computer.

 whembly wrote:
They know nothing else.

That's why I sort of hate this generation. Do you know how old I was before I saw a pixelated nipple on a computer screen? I was like 26, and it was over a screechy-ass 14.4k modem that took me forever to get installed because I had to spend hours screwing with the DIP switches and the init strings. Before that it was (ironically considering some of the previous comments in this thread) various cultures indigenous populations via National Geographics at the public library.

Meanwhile these little bastards wake up in the morning with essentially a little supercomputer in their pocket that is also a high-speed conduit to as much pornography as they might care to watch, whenever they might want to!

They don't even know what the world used to be like, man.

 Swastakowey wrote:
So why not ensure the majority of people have that little bit (its not expensive for internet I assume) of money to spare for an internet connection?

Because boot-straps.

In 'Murica, everyone paying an extra 10 cents in taxes so that you can have free internet is a travesty, you working three part-time jobs making 7 bucks an hour so you can afford to have access to the same resources as the rich white kids who never had to work a day in there life is a virtue.

Plus everyone knows its a slippery-slope. We start paying for other people to have free internet... why next thing you know we'll be paying for them to drive Lamborghinis, eat lobster everyday and play Planetside 2 on Ultra-settings with their $3000 computer! = 0

 cincydooley wrote:


Our internet and cable was one of the first things we cut when I lost my job (and was working two part time jobs) in 2008.

When I needed to use the internet, I did so from one part time job on my lunch break, or went to the library.

They're certainly not rights, or necessities.

This is just nonsense. I can think of at least 8 places within 5 minutes of my house that have free wifi and are open until 10PM.

Heaven forbid you sacrifice something to save for something else.

You can get a Chromebook for less than $200. According to MIT's lovely little calculator, saving your discretionary budget for three months will get you there just fine.

Or, you know, you can use the free ones at the library.

Are you positive that your experiences are universally representative?
Is there any chance there are factors you might not be considering?
Stop for a moment and try to play a bit of devil's advocate in your head for the side you disagree with. Can you find any challenges to the position you've taken?
Try approaching the issue by putting yourself in the situation described, what things could go wrong and/or complicate solutions you've purposed?

 Ouze wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
[As I said in my first comment, America is a very different place. I haven't been to America (and thank goodness for that).

hey.... we're deep frying butter now. Just saying, you don't know what you're missing.

I still cant get over how sickening some American food is. An american style wendies burgers opened here, and the cheese is like some weird yellow plastic. It doesnt even melt properly. Plus the bacon is like sun dried or something.

Stuff like this also creeps me out.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
[As I said in my first comment, America is a very different place. I haven't been to America (and thank goodness for that).

hey.... we're deep frying butter now. Just saying, you don't know what you're missing.

I still cant get over how sickening some American food is. An american style wendies burgers opened here, and the cheese is like some weird yellow plastic. It doesnt even melt properly. Plus the bacon is like sun dried or something.

Stuff like this also creeps me out.

Spoiler:

If Murican Cheese isn't melting for you, you ain't cooking it long enough.

 Slarg232 wrote:


If Murican Cheese

American cheese isn't.

ir's... cheeselike.

 Ouze wrote:
ir's... cheeselike.

It contains cheese, if that's what you're getting at.

If your cheese comes from a soap dispenser then there is something a little off about that cheese.

Minimum wage was enacted in the thirties, with the following justification:

"In my Inaugural I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this country. It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By "business" I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living." - FDR


That minimum wage fails to keep pace with inflation and regularly fails to meet its mandate is simply evidence of the weakness of our politicians in failing to support the citizens, rather than the business interests.

The same arguments are raised every time the minimum wage's effective rate falls below the living level. These are the same arguments raised in opposition to the initial establishment of the minimum wage, the same arguments that have been proven false time and again. Those who keep voicing these arguments not only fail to recognize history, but do so largely against their own interest. In a capitalist society, a high minimum wage ensures that customers exist for products.