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Also in WMH the two lists used are generally not disjoint.
Only characters can be taken just once like the beloved or hated Eiryss or Gorman.

 Psienesis wrote:

Also, what is the $/Model ratio for both???

Kind of irrelevant from a playability standpoint. The cost-per-model is going to be dependent on how many models you need to play a game

A single BSS costs me $80US, plus whatever I need for alternate weapon options, so let's say $82 per BSS.

I can't play a standard game of 40K with just 1 squad of Sisters.

That's ~$8 a model.

I chose another WHM box-of-10 models from a random faction for comparison:

Warmachine: Protectorate - Temple Flameguard Unit Box

... it's normally $49.99, so $4.99 a model, and you can field up to 3 units of these per Warcaster, for a total amount of ~$150US.

I need to field at *least* 3 BSS to have tactical viability in 40K. That's $240 right there, and that's just basic troops!

WHM armies are almost universally smaller than a 40k army, but even if they are not (for sake of argument), this WHM army is going to be roughly half the cost of my Sisters army.

You picked the single most expensive army to make a point??? Grey Knights have less models in an army should I make a point with them??? Or should we go with a poster boy Ultramarine list???

EDIT: You forgot to add expensive Seraphim Squads, and Dominion Squads!!!

I picked the army that I play.

Incidentally, I also picked one of the most-expensive WMH 10-model-units boxes as well.

Btw, going through the lists from my GT this past summer (2000 points) first 3

Knights + IG $750
Eldar $983.5
Eldar $758.5

SO sure 150 points down will be less, but not enough to drop below Warmahordes stuff. I mean even if we say you save $1 per point you are looking at $600, $608, $833


Automatically Appended Next Post:
AS for Dark Vengance being a good deal, that is debatable.

If you want to play space marines, sure it is a good deal, if you want to Play CSM it is slightly worse, if you want to play any other army, it is not a great deal at all.

Breng77 wrote:
Btw, going through the lists from my GT this past summer (2000 points) first 3

Knights + IG $750
Eldar $983.5
Eldar $758.5

SO sure 150 points down will be less, but not enough to drop below Warmahordes stuff. I mean even if we say you save $1 per point you are looking at $600, $608, $833


Automatically Appended Next Post:
AS for Dark Vengance being a good deal, that is debatable.

If you want to play space marines, sure it is a good deal, if you want to Play CSM it is slightly worse, if you want to play any other army, it is not a great deal at all.

Sure -- those prices look reasonable for 2000 points. This goes to show you that it's possible to play a competitive 40k army at between $500-$1000 (not everyone goes up to 2000 points). However, you have to know what you're buying.

DV is not the most useful box in the world, and the units are not the best selection (not to mention totally non-configurable). However, if you need the templates and the rulebook, it's as good a place as any to start 40k, IMO. Plus, the snapfits are a lot less time to put together, to "just play".

You also chose to compare a Circle Orboros army for Hordes, which tends to not have a lot of overlap between lists since they can go Beast heavy, Construct heavy or a mix. So you tend to see both together which inflates the cost because units in one tend to not be used in others. Compare that to many lists that will change out a unit or two, some solos but remain roughly similar to reuse models across both.

Go and compare something that isn't so skewed, like Cygnar or Khador (however Iron Fang Pikemen spam gets pricey).

Also you are comparing a pretty atypical 40k list that I suspect was done intentionally to be on the cheaper end of things to prove your point.

On the other spectrum is something like this:

http://www.discountgamesinc.com/tournaments/players/view/423

Both lists come to a total of $256.70 (the Ravagores and Scytheans can be magnetized). Two 50 point armies for about $257.

WayneTheGame wrote:
You also chose to compare a Circle Orboros army for Hordes, which tends to not have a lot of overlap between lists since they can go Beast heavy, Construct heavy or a mix. So you tend to see both together which inflates the cost because units in one tend to not be used in others. Compare that to many lists that will change out a unit or two, some solos but remain roughly similar to reuse models across both.

Go and compare something that isn't so skewed, like Cygnar or Khador (however Iron Fang Pikemen spam gets pricey).

Also you are comparing a pretty atypical 40k list that I suspect was done intentionally to be on the cheaper end of things to prove your point.

On the other spectrum is something like this:

http://www.discountgamesinc.com/tournaments/players/view/423

Both lists come to a total of $256.70 (the Ravagores and Scytheans can be magnetized). Two 50 point armies for about $257.

If you read my post I said I took Xareath's Feast of Blade list (He did very well with) and compared it to 3 40k lists that also do VERY good at tournaments there was no bias.

The 3 (40k) lists I posted could win any tournament they go too.

For some reason I can't open your link. Nvm got the link to work. Looks like the kid got 17th at the tournament...I can make a list that gets 17th for 40k for $250.00 too.

I am trying to stay competitive.

What is the cost difference that people are looking for to be significant? To me, $500 for warmachines vs $650 for a 40k army is negligible. Do people actually play WM because it's cheaper? The only people i know that play WM are because they are taking a break because they play too much 40k, or they just wanted to play it too. Maybe i'm the oddball, but i would never not play the game i find more interesting becase it costs a little more.

The reason why I posted this is because I was told by a gaming store I visited that Warmachine was cheaper and better quality.

Personally I like 40k but that intrigued me. I went to the store the next night to do some price shopping and when the owner showed me a 100.00 chariot for Warmachine I wanted to do a price comparison.

As for the better quality he must have been talking about rules because even failcast is better than Warmachine.

is everything WM white metal or do they have plastic as well?

 deviantduck wrote:
What is the cost difference that people are looking for to be significant? To me, $500 for warmachines vs $650 for a 40k army is negligible. Do people actually play WM because it's cheaper? The only people i know that play WM are because they are taking a break because they play too much 40k, or they just wanted to play it too. Maybe i'm the oddball, but i would never not play the game i find more interesting becase it costs a little more.

thats the thing,

some people buy beer based on how cheap it is, some on how good it tastes...

sure you can pay 1$ a beer for lucky lager, sure you can pay 7.5$ for a fine crabbies import,

is lucky lager "better" because its cheaper?

 deviantduck wrote:
is everything WM white metal or do they have plastic as well?

They currently have a mixture between white metal and plastic. But not the same kind of plastic GW has, plastic glue does not work on it, and its inferior in quality. Although they are switching to normal hard plastic like GW uses, the first kit with that will be coming out in January/February.

here's the 2 lists that i took to a local tournament and went 2nd place with (out of ~25 people)

list 1: Epic Haley Tier 4 Stormbringers
Major Victoria Haley
* Thorn
* Stormwall
Storm Strider
Storm Strider
Field Mechaniks (Leader and 5 Grunts)
Storm Tower
Storm Tower
Stormsmith Stormcaller
Stormsmith Stormcaller
Stormsmith Stormcaller

50 pts

list 2: Nemo3 non tier
Artificier General Nemo
* Stormwall
Black 13th Gun Mage Strike Team
Storm Tower
Storm Tower
Stormguard (Leader and 9 Grunts)
Captain Arlan Strangewayes
Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist
Reinholdt, Gobber Speculator
Stormsmith Stormcaller
Stormsmith Stormcaller
Stormsmith Stormcaller
Storm Strider

50 pts

Total MSRP between both of them: $533

$ amount shared between them: $268


I have been looking into starting 40k again due to a good group of guys at my FLGS

Here are the armies i thought about starting (at 1850-2000 depending on upgrades):

Tau:
Skyray x2
Devilfish x3
FW squad x 3
Commander x1
Broadsides x6
Riptide x1

$766 MSRP

Eldar:
Autarch on jetbike (1 jetbike plus upgrade kit)
wraithguard x1
Wave Serpent x1
Jetbike squad x6
Crimson Hunter x1
Fire Prism x1
Wraithknight x2

$713 MSRP

40k is priced so high that i will have to go through some extra measures and change my army and list selection so i can afford to get into it again

So I'm not sure what you're smoking but we can keep trading price lists all day

"if" I payed full retail for my E-butcher list (and I did not the local store discounts 10-15% it comes to $394.88 for 50pts
E-butcher-22.99 (Prices in US)
Beserker 22.99
Fenris 44.99
Doom Reavers x 9 32.99 (269.91)

Not a bad deal, Toungue firm in cheek

Goreshade the basterard 22.99
Slayer 34.99
Bane Thralls 49.99

$107.97 and I am at Zero points so far on the army! but that is an extreme example.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just for masochism let me look at my sisters army (again in US)

Cannoness $15
Comand squad 4 melta and simulacram $52.85

2 sisters squads, melt/multi melta (5 woman squads) $ 106

6 immolaters $223.5

3 dominion squads (SS + 4 melta girls) 155.55

3 exorsists 173.25

Total $726.15 (and I still have points to spare!)

 easysauce wrote:


I mean, you dont even need 1850 pts to play 40k... 500 pts is more then enough to play, but 50 pts is basically mandatory for WMH

If you're going to compare bare minimum pts level 40k to bare minimum WMH then you still lose. Battleboxes are £30 each. You can't just compare 500pts 40k to 50pts WMH.

 gumbymoto wrote:
here's the 2 lists that i took to a local tournament and went 2nd place with (out of ~25 people)

list 1: Epic Haley Tier 4 Stormbringers
Major Victoria Haley
* Thorn
* Stormwall
Storm Strider
Storm Strider
Field Mechaniks (Leader and 5 Grunts)
Storm Tower
Storm Tower
Stormsmith Stormcaller
Stormsmith Stormcaller
Stormsmith Stormcaller

50 pts

list 2: Nemo3 non tier
Artificier General Nemo
* Stormwall
Black 13th Gun Mage Strike Team
Storm Tower
Storm Tower
Stormguard (Leader and 9 Grunts)
Captain Arlan Strangewayes
Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist
Reinholdt, Gobber Speculator
Stormsmith Stormcaller
Stormsmith Stormcaller
Stormsmith Stormcaller
Storm Strider

50 pts

Total MSRP between both of them: $533

$ amount shared between them: $268


I have been looking into starting 40k again due to a good group of guys at my FLGS

Here are the armies i thought about starting (at 1850-2000 depending on upgrades):

Tau:
Skyray x2
Devilfish x3
FW squad x 3
Commander x1
Broadsides x6
Riptide x1

$766 MSRP

Eldar:
Autarch on jetbike (1 jetbike plus upgrade kit)
wraithguard x1
Wave Serpent x1
Jetbike squad x6
Crimson Hunter x1
Fire Prism x1
Wraithknight x2

$713 MSRP

40k is priced so high that i will have to go through some extra measures and change my army and list selection so i can afford to get into it again

So I'm not sure what you're smoking but we can keep trading price lists all day

Please try to keep your posts in theme with the OP. Your 40k lists are just lists of things you would like to buy and in know way a Competitive list. If you are just collecting 40k can be expensive. Im sure Warmachine can to if your collecting for fun.

Incognito15 wrote:


Please try to keep your posts in theme with the OP. Your 40k lists are just lists of things you would like to buy and in know way a Competitive list. If you are just collecting 40k can be expensive. Im sure Warmachine can to if your collecting for fun.

And what theme would that be? Only evidence that confirms to your obvious bias?

 Grimtuff wrote:

Incognito15 wrote:


Please try to keep your posts in theme with the OP. Your 40k lists are just lists of things you would like to buy and in know way a Competitive list. If you are just collecting 40k can be expensive. Im sure Warmachine can to if your collecting for fun.

And what theme would that be? Only evidence that confirms to your obvious bias?

Just post a competitive list. @ 1850 for 40k. If I see 3 Devilfish placed across from me Im not worried.

My point is for an 1850pt list (Tournament norm for 40k) vs a 50pt (Dual list norm for WM) the prices are very close.

Replace the Devilfish with 3 Riptides, and the 2 Skyrays with 2 of the FW Riptide variants.

The fact that one 40K army can cost you $1000 for 1500 points, while another one will cost you only $500 is part of the problem with 40K.

With WMH, prices are generally equal across the board for unit types... and you're getting entire squads with all the fixings in a single box, not having to spend $100 on two three-model packs, and then $10 a model for 3 more models to cover your heavy weapon/special weapon/special item carrying models for WYSIWYSG.

Kitting out 2 BSS squads can, in some cases, require the purchase of a total of 13 models, depending on how you kit your squads.... and other 40K armies are the same way. The kits of troops don't include all of the options that the squad can have. Like, you get 1 Marine with a Heavy Bolter in the box... but the squad can have 2, or things along those lines (and the BS squad doesn't even get a Sister with a Flamer, that's an entirely separate model!)

.... and if you break the BS Squad into two 5-woman teams, you have to get an additional Sister Superior for Squad #2.

 Psienesis wrote:
Replace the Devilfish with 3 Riptides, and the 2 Skyrays with 2 of the FW Riptide variants.

The fact that one 40K army can cost you $1000 for 1500 points, while another one will cost you only $500 is part of the problem with 40K.

With WMH, prices are generally equal across the board for unit types... and you're getting entire squads with all the fixings in a single box, not having to spend $100 on two three-model packs, and then $10 a model for 3 more models to cover your heavy weapon/special weapon/special item carrying models for WYSIWYSG.

Kitting out 2 BSS squads can, in some cases, require the purchase of a total of 13 models, depending on how you kit your squads.... and other 40K armies are the same way. The kits of troops don't include all of the options that the squad can have. Like, you get 1 Marine with a Heavy Bolter in the box... but the squad can have 2, or things along those lines (and the BS squad doesn't even get a Sister with a Flamer, that's an entirely separate model!)

.... and if you break the BS Squad into two 5-woman teams, you have to get an additional Sister Superior for Squad #2.

Sure. 40k has the potential to cost very little or a thousand dollars to play. WMH has a lower cost variance per point (although this isn't strictly true, as some PP models are much cheaper than others).

However, I don't think anyone should get into either WMH or 40k, if, in the course of a year or two, they expect to spend a lot less than that. I'm not saying that *everyone* spends that, but there's just cool stuff that comes out, and everything from brushes to paint, to tools, to magazines is expensive, and it doesn't really matter whether you say Vallejo or P3. I would say the same thing about most TCGs: don't expect to be competitive if you're not prepared to blow a thousand bucks (to start!).

If you really want a tabletop miniature game and spend the minimum amount, choose something like a miniature board game where there is one fixed price for all the units (like Space Hulk). Or, play a game with a small miniature count, where the lore is not fluid (like X-Wing). Then, you're only paying for expansion sets, rather than an open ended scenario where the company makes new units every month and you have to decide whether to buy miniatures or pay rent.

From a miniatures hobby perspective, Privateer Press is not any cheaper than Games Workshop (at all). Yes, most PP miniatures are metal or have metal, but modellers may also argue that MPP kits have many more build options. Price per miniature, GW is cheaper in almost all the 5 and 10 man squads, and is no more expensive on large units. PP is cheaper on the heroes (like Victoria Haley versus Kaldor Draigo). It's a wash; both are expensive.

I guess I'm saying that any way you cut it, this turns into an expensive hobby, so go into it with your eyes open, not expecting either to be cheap. If it's your first game, trying to budget your spending for the long term by sketching out a list... I don't think that's the best way to get into WMH or 40k. But, I guess, WMH is less problematic, because you're less likely to have an army with which you feel screwed.

Incognito15 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

Incognito15 wrote:


Please try to keep your posts in theme with the OP. Your 40k lists are just lists of things you would like to buy and in know way a Competitive list. If you are just collecting 40k can be expensive. Im sure Warmachine can to if your collecting for fun.

And what theme would that be? Only evidence that confirms to your obvious bias?

Just post a competitive list. @ 1850 for 40k. If I see 3 Devilfish placed across from me Im not worried.

My point is for an 1850pt list (Tournament norm for 40k) vs a 50pt (Dual list norm for WM) the prices are very close.

well theres these lists that were top 16 at adepticon:
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Jesse-Newton-Farsight-Tau-Inqusitition-1st-Seed.pdf

clocks in at $733

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Tim-Gorthams-Space-Marines-Space-Marines-Inquisition-2nd-Seed.pdf


comes in at $723

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Tony-Grapandos-Eldar-Dark-Eldar-Inquisition-10th-Seed.pdf

$863 MSRP

edit: forgot to add in the 2nd chaptermaster and the second devastator squad (as there are 4 in the list and only 3 in a box)

Incognito, I'd put something in your original title to make sure your focus is on the stipulation of tournament size armies of 40k vs. WMH, since conversation always trends towards model/dollar comparisons.

Incognito15 wrote:

So your saying I picked the only Warmachine list thats expensive?

Yup. And then you pick and choose what 40k lists are valid on top of that.

To be fair, it depends entirely on the lists used and on how much crossover there is.

At the Scottish masters recently, one of my lists was butcher3 double black dragon. It's pricey. My other was cavalry heavy vlad3. It's extremely pricey. Very little cross over.

Then again, looking at my circle stuff that I take to tournaments (with very good results too - I've got about a 75%win rate with kromac), two warpwolf stalkers, a gorax, stones, blood trackers, shrimps and wolf riders make up a very solid core for both my lists (I play tharn heavy) 34pts with the beasts and riders alone. My circle stuff cost me in total about £250-£300.

You also get 2 different lists with that proposed pricing. More actually if you fiddle around with combinations.

Adding a couple additional purchases could also net you even more lists. Its not like 40k where you need to buy a ton of new stuff to have a new list. One or two swaps and you can have a list which is totally different from the one before even if it has 90% of the same stuff.

Wouldnt it be better to price up the cheapest 40k list and the most expensive and do the same with warmachine.

That way you have a range, so 40k can be this cheap (assuming full price GW models) and 40k can be this expensive and the same for the warmachine.

I would find that more useful than 2 lists I know nothing about.

I think this should be done for all the game systems. Better for comparison.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Wouldnt it be better to price up the cheapest 40k list and the most expensive and do the same with warmachine.

That way you have a range, so 40k can be this cheap (assuming full price GW models) and 40k can be this expensive and the same for the warmachine.

I would find that more useful than 2 lists I know nothing about.

I think this should be done for all the game systems. Better for comparison.

Can't argue with this.

Incognito15 wrote:
Rulebooks dont matter because most of us know how to download them for free.

Can anyone tell me what tournament that allows people to use dowloanded rules and codices? I am sure you need a LEGALLY OBTAINED rules and codices to play 40K and Warmahordes.

So buying the rules and codices to play your army should be calculated into the price tag. Other wise we might as well go to the Dollar Store and buy plastic army guys and play 40K and Warmahordes with our downloaded rules and codices.

Oh wait, we may just use our 3D printers and forget about buying GW or PP now since the OP says it's OK to download rules and codices. How did the Mods let this one go buy, people saying it's ok to download rules and everyone should be doing it or insinuate that is what people should be doing.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Wouldnt it be better to price up the cheapest 40k list and the most expensive and do the same with warmachine.

That way you have a range, so 40k can be this cheap (assuming full price GW models) and 40k can be this expensive and the same for the warmachine.

I would find that more useful than 2 lists I know nothing about.

I think this should be done for all the game systems. Better for comparison.

This would sort of give you a mean price. A median price of the miniatures used in your playgroup would be more useful.

For example, just because the range of armies is $300 to $900 doesn't mean most people spend $600. In that gaming group, most people might actually spend $800.

An even better figure would be to know average (median) annual spend on the armies.

Talys wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Wouldnt it be better to price up the cheapest 40k list and the most expensive and do the same with warmachine.

That way you have a range, so 40k can be this cheap (assuming full price GW models) and 40k can be this expensive and the same for the warmachine.

I would find that more useful than 2 lists I know nothing about.

I think this should be done for all the game systems. Better for comparison.

This would sort of give you a mean price. A median price of the miniatures used in your playgroup would be more useful.

For example, just because the range of armies is $300 to $900 doesn't mean most people spend $600. In that gaming group, most people might actually spend $800.

An even better figure would be to know average (median) annual spend on the armies.

Yes but who wants to figure that out? I thought it would be easier if people did the highest and lowest so you could see at least the price range you can expect to look at from best to worst.

Not perfect but easier.

Davor wrote:

Incognito15 wrote:
Rulebooks dont matter because most of us know how to download them for free.

Can anyone tell me what tournament that allows people to use dowloanded rules and codices? I am sure you need a LEGALLY OBTAINED rules and codices to play 40K and Warmahordes.

So buying the rules and codices to play your army should be calculated into the price tag. Other wise we might as well go to the Dollar Store and buy plastic army guys and play 40K and Warmahordes with our downloaded rules and codices.

Oh wait, we may just use our 3D printers and forget about buying GW or PP now since the OP says it's OK to download rules and codices. How did the Mods let this one go buy, people saying it's ok to download rules and everyone should be doing it or insinuate that is what people should be doing.

Nobody has ever complained about my photocopied codex pages. I own almost everything 7ed but that's beside the point. I'm not going to carry it with me.

Also, making photocopies for personal use is LEGAL in every jurisdiction I'm aware of. This is why libraries have photocopiers.

It is 100% legal to photocopy a book from cover to cover, even one you don't own, under fair use laws. Of course, this never made sense when copies were 5 cents and books were cheap. This is unlike movies or songs, which may or may not be copied for various purposes under different jurisdictions.