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What Micky said. GW has been sewing the seeds of the End Times for the past edition it seems, looks like its finally ready for harvesting.

Also agreed with his statement re: The Old World, which on the one hand is fine since 90% of the action takes place in the Old World anyway, but there was so much unexplored territory (and I dont mean that as in unknown so much as I mean it in the sense that its never discussed in great detail) ans potentially interesting things they could have done with those areas of the setting which is seemingly unlikely to ever come to fruition now.

It makes me wonder though what the goal is in causing such a geographical realignment? Like I could understand if they wanted to add new factions, if that were the case then freeing up some space would make sense, but otherwise... leaving the elves in naggaroth and/or ulthuan, and the lizardmen in lustria, and the ogres in the mountains of mourn wouldnt have impacted gameplay at all.

They've killed off all the factions that aren't currently in production.
I'm not sure if there is room for any more factions, from the looks of it, they just want to condense everything,,,, in a somewhat badass way.

Thanks
Austin

@Haight, What a post! An exalt for you!

I think it's very, very interesting. Having just bought a bunch of new Wood Elves and Dwarfs this summer (and the hardcover army books), I am deeply hoping that they will still be useful and playable armies. If it becomes more of an "Allied Contingent" game like in 40k (or Storm of Magic, for that matter) I have no problem with that whatsoever. I think getting a bunch of armies on the (big) table together and going at it with friends is one of the funnest things about the game, and all of this seems to lead to that type of game play.

Someone owns Nagash and some Undead? Well, let's team up against him with some Empire, Bretonnia, and Dwarfs. Or: Chaos is invading. Let's get some Ogres and Orcs & Goblins together and fight them off. Doesn't sound that bad to me.

Kislev's loss is sad to me...as a DA fan ...but they have definitely been moving away from products that aren't that popular. Border Princes and Regiments of Renown are clearly gone now, and no, they are never gong to develop a "Cathay" or Samurai army (one of my old dreams), but there are clearly a lot of things to be excited about happening, and it does look like they are going to continue to happen for a while.

I think the books just an expansion, I doubt it will actually mean much for future editions of the game. Perhaps the fluff in 9th edition will be a bit different. GW aren't just going to come along and start deleting factions and models. Everybody knows that "lore" for these things isn't meant to be in anyway coherent. Look at all that Star Wars Stuff. Lore is soft, hazy and squishy, it is not desirable that it become rock solid.

The game isn't really set in a "fixed" time period. You can play before the "end of times" during and after. As I said the whole thing is incompletely fuzzy. Why the hell are a bunch of wood elves fighting desert dwelling skeletons in a baron iceland?


At the end of the day GW treads a delicate line between consistency of models/factions and creating new content to try and get people to buy things. Lets face it, having a 17th century army(emprie) next to a 14th century army (bretonnia) would look silly and GW knows it...

After getting my copy of Khaine, which I've only started, my guesses:


-Progress timeline to the dawn of Rhana Daedra itself
-Armies come from Factions, which can be multiple books and possibly data slates
-Magic imports 40k's 4+-pee-charge method (all spells I saw were a multiple of 5, and in places the power level was an annotation, not a rule)
-Rules support models-as-sold only. Things like the Dark Eldar archon only getting power swords - no spears! - being implemented in the books (bye bye Standardbearer with Halbred?).
-Model options being substantially trimmed

Maybe I'm just a pessimist.

-Armies come from Factions, which can be multiple books and possibly data slates
I'm not opposed to this. As long as it's done with caution (no stupid 40k matrix). If they go as they have been (Undead, Chaos, Elves, Rumoured Brets+Empire for Men). I understand people like their separate books but let's face it. Having 15 different books makes it impossible to try & balance while keeping an army from going unupdated for 5+ years. Condensing them into 9 will make this easier. Data slates, while annoying at $5 per, make it so that your army gets updates more frequently without having to wait years to get anything new. Plus if they do them like nagash or the morghasts you don't need to buy the dataslate. The new rules are included with the model.

-Magic imports 40k's 4+-pee-charge method (all spells I saw were a multiple of 5, and in places the power level was an annotation, not a rule)
Dear god please no. Fantasys casting system works FINE. If anything 40k should change over to mimic ours.

-Rules support models-as-sold only. Things like the Dark Eldar archon only getting power swords - no spears! - being implemented in the books (bye bye Standardbearer with Halbred?).
Doubtful. The issue with 40k is chapter house. If GW doesn't make a model, chapter house can and will. 40k is MUCH easier to defend in court because it's unique. Currently we saw Dark Eldar lose all special characters that do not have a specific model, Dark Elves on the other hand still have Tullaris and Kourhan. This comes down to defensibility of IP. Fantasy makes that very hard because "Evil Elf" or "Mummy captain" or even "Dwarf Engineer" are too generic while "Space evil elf" really only comes from one place. Basically if it's in D&D GW can't sue people for making a model for it.


-Model options being substantially trimmed
Again I'm skeptical. Yes in 8th we lost many book specific magic items but we greatly expanded generic magic items. Also to be fair, MOST of the book specific ones never saw use. They were too gimmicky or just plain bad.

MadMarkMagee wrote:
I think the books just an expansion, I doubt it will actually mean much for future editions of the game. Perhaps the fluff in 9th edition will be a bit different. GW aren't just going to come along and start deleting factions and models. Everybody knows that "lore" for these things isn't meant to be in anyway coherent. Look at all that Star Wars Stuff. Lore is soft, hazy and squishy, it is not desirable that it become rock solid.

The game isn't really set in a "fixed" time period. You can play before the "end of times" during and after. As I said the whole thing is incompletely fuzzy. Why the hell are a bunch of wood elves fighting desert dwelling skeletons in a baron iceland?


At the end of the day GW treads a delicate line between consistency of models/factions and creating new content to try and get people to buy things. Lets face it, having a 17th century army(emprie) next to a 14th century army (bretonnia) would look silly and GW knows it...

Considering that the advertising campaign for this is "Warhammer Fantasy will never be the same again", and they havent actually deleted any factions or models (only those units and characters which they dont have models for), Im inclined to think that the End Times will have more of a lasting impact than you realize.

chaos0xomega wrote:

MadMarkMagee wrote:
I think the books just an expansion, I doubt it will actually mean much for future editions of the game. Perhaps the fluff in 9th edition will be a bit different. GW aren't just going to come along and start deleting factions and models. Everybody knows that "lore" for these things isn't meant to be in anyway coherent. Look at all that Star Wars Stuff. Lore is soft, hazy and squishy, it is not desirable that it become rock solid.

The game isn't really set in a "fixed" time period. You can play before the "end of times" during and after. As I said the whole thing is incompletely fuzzy. Why the hell are a bunch of wood elves fighting desert dwelling skeletons in a baron iceland?


At the end of the day GW treads a delicate line between consistency of models/factions and creating new content to try and get people to buy things. Lets face it, having a 17th century army(emprie) next to a 14th century army (bretonnia) would look silly and GW knows it...

Considering that the advertising campaign for this is "Warhammer Fantasy will never be the same again", and they havent actually deleted any factions or models (only those units and characters which they dont have models for), Im inclined to think that the End Times will have more of a lasting impact than you realize.

I've come to terms with this now.
So far the fluff is good.
I'm just worried about combined books, and if I'll be able to run a mono-bretonnian army.

Thanks
Austin

Warhammer has had combined books before, so its nothing to be too concerned about, and I would imagine mono builds will still be possible (much in the same way that chaos warriors/daemons can be built as monogod lists), but I wouldn't expect lists to be balanced around monobuilds.

Was there a reason why GW didn't release some new models for Khaine? Doesn't seem smart not to considering the other End Times armies got ones. Some new special characters (Malekith and the Avatar of Khaine at least!) along with a new unit or two - one from each faction would have been awesome.

It really thought they were going to give the 40k Avatar of Khaine some WHFB rules. Perhaps they were going to do that, but something kept it from quite working right?

 iLLiTHiD wrote:
Was there a reason why GW didn't release some new models for Khaine? Doesn't seem smart not to considering the other End Times armies got ones. Some new special characters (Malekith and the Avatar of Khaine at least!) along with a new unit or two - one from each faction would have been awesome.

They couldn't figure out how to mould Ariel's sleeves properly...

Regarding Lizardmen, there are jungles in the far south of the old World, some of which have abandoned Lizardman temple-cities in them. Tichi Huichi's Raiders spawned from one of them.

Technically speaking those arent in the Old World anymore as the Old World is defined as anything West of the Worlds Edge and North of the Badlands/Sea of Whatever

At some point, Mazdamundi is going to rearrange the continents.


Cuz why the heck give him a spell that does that and then not use it.

 iLLiTHiD wrote:
Was there a reason why GW didn't release some new models for Khaine? Doesn't seem smart not to considering the other End Times armies got ones. Some new special characters (Malekith and the Avatar of Khaine at least!) along with a new unit or two - one from each faction would have been awesome.

It was supposed to be the Khaine stuff in the DE release, but that was pushed foward for some reason, which is why Dark Elves got a larger release with their book.

Loving the End Times so far, the advance in the story is well written(for GW) and i think it is making things more interesting especially for players like my gaming group who play casual(no internet power builds) theme army style.

Im especially keen on the Elves becoming less black and white, more of a murky alliance/boundries.

Obviously it was never going to please everyone but for most of my gaming group(one player who is extremely against it, although he admits he has never read it) it has only boosted our Fantasy love.

I just hope the last two books live up to the first three.

Edit: I do have some minor fluff complaints about the loss of Tilea especially, as one of my original armies was Dogs of War but i get what GW seem to be doing, trying to bring everyone to the Old World.

I can still do a Tilea themed army if i ever want to go back to them, just changes their background to be more in line with the post End Times story.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
End Times has ruined WHFB. Not so much the rules changes. But the big guys.

Allow me to put it into perspective. I took a cauldron based gunline to a game vs Nagash. Four Bolt Throwers and 30 crossbows. All rerolling all failed to wound rolls.

Yet, the only method I had to reliably kill Nagash was to six dice final transmutation and hope he rolled the six.


Fluffwise, I love it.

Ruleswise, I'm not too fond, but I can deal with it.

KFA and Nagash can eat all the bags of dicks in the world.

And the new elf gak can finish off the bag...

 Hubris wrote:


Edit: I do have some minor fluff complaints about the loss of Tilea especially, as one of my original armies was Dogs of War but i get what GW seem to be doing, trying to bring everyone to the Old World.

I can still do a Tilea themed army if i ever want to go back to them, just changes their background to be more in line with the post End Times story.

Play a Tilean mercenary company that was out of the country when it was overrun. Simple, easy.

 Micky wrote:

 Hubris wrote:


Edit: I do have some minor fluff complaints about the loss of Tilea especially, as one of my original armies was Dogs of War but i get what GW seem to be doing, trying to bring everyone to the Old World.

I can still do a Tilea themed army if i ever want to go back to them, just changes their background to be more in line with the post End Times story.

Play a Tilean mercenary company that was out of the country when it was overrun. Simple, easy.

That is my plan, if it stays a Skaven kingdom, i like the idea of a small mercenary army trying to reclaim their home town/city.

I was upset at first but quickly realised i could adapt and enjoy the new fluff, the same freedom for our creativity exists to build our theme armies, it just has different boundries now.

I've been reading some people were upset the late of updates and such, but what has been annoying me is things have been updating way too fast. (Just like 40K)

I JUST GOT the High Elf book and now it's looking like within a year it will be obsolete (if it ain't already)

Just make a book for each army ONCE and work on making a good edition, and then LEAVE IT ALONE!

I got into WHFB cause it looked like the rules set was stable for the moment and I could get used to it and collect and play.

It's becoming like Madden, every year got to burn 60 bucks on the book, and probably the starter set of the next edition. JUST TO PLAY!.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
I've been reading some people were upset the late of updates and such, but what has been annoying me is things have been updating way too fast. (Just like 40K)

I JUST GOT the High Elf book and now it's looking like within a year it will be obsolete (if it ain't already)

Just make a book for each army ONCE and work on making a good edition, and then LEAVE IT ALONE!

I got into WHFB cause it looked like the rules set was stable for the moment and I could get used to it and collect and play.

It's becoming like Madden, every year got to burn 60 bucks on the book, and probably the starter set of the next edition. JUST TO PLAY!.

Errrr......its GW. What were you expecting?

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
I've been reading some people were upset the late of updates and such, but what has been annoying me is things have been updating way too fast. (Just like 40K)

I JUST GOT the High Elf book and now it's looking like within a year it will be obsolete (if it ain't already)

Just make a book for each army ONCE and work on making a good edition, and then LEAVE IT ALONE!

I got into WHFB cause it looked like the rules set was stable for the moment and I could get used to it and collect and play.

It's becoming like Madden, every year got to burn 60 bucks on the book, and probably the starter set of the next edition. JUST TO PLAY!.

Errrr......its GW. What were you expecting?

Have an exalt!

Thanks
Austin

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
I've been reading some people were upset the late of updates and such, but what has been annoying me is things have been updating way too fast. (Just like 40K)

I JUST GOT the High Elf book and now it's looking like within a year it will be obsolete (if it ain't already)

Just make a book for each army ONCE and work on making a good edition, and then LEAVE IT ALONE!

I got into WHFB cause it looked like the rules set was stable for the moment and I could get used to it and collect and play.

It's becoming like Madden, every year got to burn 60 bucks on the book, and probably the starter set of the next edition. JUST TO PLAY!.

Why would your copy of High Elves (which you bought 1-2 years after release) be obsolete next year? The new edition won't be out until the middle of next year and the new army book won't be out for years. Bretonnia hasn't had a new book since 2003. They'll get one next year, but its not like they're going to get another one the year after that.

You also don't have to play the newest edition. Feel free to play sixth, seventh, or eight edition during ninth edition. Personally I'm trying to scoop up the old stuff for cheap on eBay. Partially because I might trying playing the older versions. Partially because I feel like collecting them since sixth is the edition I started in. Then partially because I'd like to have a wider pool of resources to draw from when I write my fan edition.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
I've been reading some people were upset the late of updates and such, but what has been annoying me is things have been updating way too fast. (Just like 40K)

I JUST GOT the High Elf book and now it's looking like within a year it will be obsolete (if it ain't already)

Just make a book for each army ONCE and work on making a good edition, and then LEAVE IT ALONE!

I got into WHFB cause it looked like the rules set was stable for the moment and I could get used to it and collect and play.

It's becoming like Madden, every year got to burn 60 bucks on the book, and probably the starter set of the next edition. JUST TO PLAY!.

It's not obsolete.

You can still completely play a legal army out of that book, including special characters.

Khaine just moves the fluff along, and note, if you play khaine lists, you must choose to pick a host of Aestyrion / Phoenix King / Eterinty King.

Nothing about army book: High Elves has been wallpapered in any way. I'm not saying it can't happen, but it hasn't yet.

You can 100% Play Alarielle the radiant or teclis out of High Elves without issue ; if you choose to play Alarielle Avatar of Isha, you must play Host of the Phoenix King, and if you play Alarielle Incarnate of Life, you must play Eternity King. If anything, the two are exclusive of one another, not in any complementary (and therefore making the army book obsolete).

Hellebron sided with malekith....against morathi.

I love the new end times books, the magic is pretty much the same from Storm of Magic with a few minor twinks.

Personally, I love the elves being united. I finally get to bring crossbows to the table as HE player.

I think it is high time that GW finally started progressing the storyline. The stalemate has been going on for sometime. I like seeing the fact that heroes across the world who have been around countless editions start dropping like flies. It echoes the end is upon us, see your greatest leaders stumble and fall. I think for once I actually agree that this is a great step forward for GW.

 Pelas Mir'san wrote:
Hellebron sided with malekith....against morathi.

I love the new end times books, the magic is pretty much the same from Storm of Magic with a few minor twinks.

Personally, I love the elves being united. I finally get to bring crossbows to the table as HE player.

I think it is high time that GW finally started progressing the storyline. The stalemate has been going on for sometime. I like seeing the fact that heroes across the world who have been around countless editions start dropping like flies. It echoes the end is upon us, see your greatest leaders stumble and fall. I think for once I actually agree that this is a great step forward for GW.

So GW has made an entire a game an arms race. And you say this is a good thing?

Currently, beyond taking Malekith the Eternity King, Elves, have no way of dealing with KFA or Nagash. Those two models can walk through most elf armies. Even 8 bolt throwers within 6" of a cauldron don't kill Nagash/KFA.

And that is in no way a good thing for the game.

If GW had just made the End Times fluff, then it would be the greatest thing ever, but making it rules has ruined the game. Especially with the new magic rules. My Aestyrion forces have made multiple people concede on turn 2. And that's not even a bent army.

I don't plan on using the lists in End times Khaine, and the magic unless the other player asks. Its like Serpent Spam in 40k. Yes I can, but why intentionally ruin the game? If my opponent wants to, it probably wouldn't be that great a game anyways.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
ruined the game. Especially with the new magic rules. My Aestyrion forces have made multiple people concede on turn 2. And that's not even a bent army.

Ruined the way YOU play the game. You like to "break" the game & take uber competitive lists. Some of us don't. If you're making multiple people concede on turn 2 maybe you should be less concerned with your W/L and more concerned about making sure your opponent also has fun. Or, find more skilled opponents to play against.

I get it, you're a tournament player & allegedly a "good" one. Warhammer is not ruined, my group has been having more fun than ever. Maybe the uber competitive tournament scene is hurt by this but so what? Change comp to equal it out. GW has stated & their rules seem to show they are making the game for casual & narrative play. NOT for cutthroat tournament play. If you want to do that style of play you'll need to patch their rules to work with your system.

Remember the lesson in Jurrasic Park "You're so concerned with whether you could, you didn't stop to think if you should." Yes the rules may ALLOW for you to bring Morathi in a 1,200 point game. However depending on your opponent that doesn't mean you SHOULD bring morathi in a 1,200 point game. If they want to play that, more power to them, but I wouldn't bring that level of power to a casual pick-up game without at least asking my opponent if it's ok.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
I don't plan on using the lists in End times Khaine, and the magic unless the other player asks. Its like Serpent Spam in 40k. Yes I can, but why intentionally ruin the game? If my opponent wants to, it probably wouldn't be that great a game anyways.

Have you used it? Your tone suggest you haven't. It's honestly not that bad, give it a try first. I thought the same way & having tried it I don't mind it.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
ruined the game. Especially with the new magic rules. My Aestyrion forces have made multiple people concede on turn 2. And that's not even a bent army.

Ruined the way YOU play the game. You like to "break" the game & take uber competitive lists. Some of us don't. If you're making multiple people concede on turn 2 maybe you should be less concerned with your W/L and more concerned about making sure your opponent also has fun. Or, find more skilled opponents to play against.

I get it, you're a tournament player & allegedly a "good" one. Warhammer is not ruined, my group has been having more fun than ever. Maybe the uber competitive tournament scene is hurt by this but so what? Change comp to equal it out. GW has stated & their rules seem to show they are making the game for casual & narrative play. NOT for cutthroat tournament play. If you want to do that style of play you'll need to patch their rules to work with your system.

Remember the lesson in Jurrasic Park "You're so concerned with whether you could, you didn't stop to think if you should." Yes the rules may ALLOW for you to bring Morathi in a 1,200 point game. However depending on your opponent that doesn't mean you SHOULD bring morathi in a 1,200 point game. If they want to play that, more power to them, but I wouldn't bring that level of power to a casual pick-up game without at least asking my opponent if it's ok..

How can I deal with Nagash at 2400?

8 bolt throwers won't kill him.

The ONLY tactic I have is to dwellers/purple sun/pit/final trans him and hope he rolls the six. The same goes for KFA. Or any other End Times combat character.

That is not something which allows for skilled gameplay.

Strictly my opinion here.

Don't cry about it, become a better general, and develop some strategies to stop him....anything can be beaten.