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All my Sisters are black. And blonde. I know… but come on, it is the future!

Warhammer has two separate (but linked) problems with diversity.

One is diversity in representation: GW presents very, very few images other than white men and women. That's not to say that there are none (indeed, people have noted several in this thread), but they do seem to be the exception. For instance, I don't play any of the video games, so I was totally unaware of some of the cool imagery noted by others. GW hasn't helped this with things like the change to the Salamanders. It used to be that the few 'official' Salamanders models we saw were black, but now, they are canonically ebony-skinned with red eyes. So, while GW has put some diversity in their games, it has also removed some of the diversity.

The other is diversity in the background. Only a few of the Legions are noted as being of a particular appearance: The Raven Guard turn pale white, while the Blood Angel geneseed transforms the twisted youth of Baal into handsome, Romanesque specimens (it never says that they are all white, but I think they've all been presented that way). The Salamanders (now) all become coal-black skinned with glowing red eyes. There's nothing in the background to say that you can't have black Mordians, or black Tanith, or black Space Wolves. Even the Regiments and Chapters which recruit from a single planet recruit from a whole planet. If Earth has black people and white people, then why wouldn't Cadia, or Tanith?

This is a long-standing scifi trope/annoyance. Star Wars is famous for making 'habitat-planets', and GW does it too. However, GW seems to go one step further and also represent the entire planet as being monoracial. Now, that's not entirely just stupid. Perhaps the colonists of Fenris were all of one racial phenotype, and all the colonists of Mordia were another.

However, GW doesn't go out and say that. Even if it did, then it might make sense to also introduce worlds that were predominantly black, or of some other ethnicity.

That's what I meant about two problems. GW doesn't make many explicit claims about certain skin colors being unique to particular groups, but it doesn't represent many others. Then, when it does make explicit claims, those claims don't represent many modern ethnicities, but are either fantastic (pale white skin, coal black skin and red eyes), or represent a Western white appearance.

Given that groups like the Dark Angels and Imperial Fists explicitly recruit from many different worlds, I think it would be neat to see those groups represented in the art. And given that certain groups seem to hew closely to a particular appearance (Space Wolves, in particular), I think it would be neat for the background to explicitly talk about that. I also think that it might be cool to have some other 'real world' ethnicities represented similarly, either in Chapters or Regiments.

TL;DR GW could do more to display racial diversity really easily, without losing anything from the background.

I remember talking to a gw store manager about 10 years ago about this they'ed been told to remove any coloured minis as head office had got a complaint about the one black catachan jungle fighter with the whole black people and jungle connotations

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Again, not indicative of the background. There are no official pictures of the caradochians, nor the Old Ones, and they certainly exist.

Dear black people,

you are now considered as obscure, weird, and alien as caradochians (whatever those are) and space frogs.

Hope this helps.

Wuv,
Vermis.

Frozen Ocean wrote:Because Games Workshop are incapable of imagining anything other than white males. Even the aliens are almost exclusively white and male.

Well, they certainly relate to their primary audience there. The most noticeable variation in their appearance is actually between skinny 14-year-olds and neckbeards with crusty heavy metal t-shirts.

Warboss.'eadsmasha wrote:Can't we leave real politics out of Warhammer? Isn't it enough that I get into a lore debate about whether the Space Wolves were justified in attacking the Thousands Sons EVERY SINGLE time I go to my local Games workshop store? Isn't it enough to debate whether or not Chaos be allowed to exist? Or whether Horus was justified in his rebellion? Or the Ultimate question; Does Humanity deserve it's place in the stars 41st Millennium?

I mean hey the whole universe is afire with war but yeah lets worry about the assortment of skin-color amongst our troops! All may serve the Emperor and may die for him too.

You don't think that this might actually be a real-world issue about GW's default attitude about the human race and therefore, ah, a tad more important than all that crap?

SharkoutofWata wrote:Salamanders, Vitrian Dragoons (Gaunt's Ghosts), a few in Horus Heresy books. Deathwatch books or other multi-Astartes chapter books make darker skin very obvious. They're not uncommon.

I'd go ahead and say that list makes them uncommon. Salamanders don't count no more (To my chagrin: I was testing green primers when they went and changed that) and everything else there is a heck of a lot more obscure.

Skintones in the rulebooks and codicies is where it's at.

melkorthetonedeaf wrote:

Exalted.

TheCustomLime wrote:I think that's GW official line as to why all models have Caucasian features: They were afraid that if they tried sculpting anything else they'd come across as racist caricatures.

This could be true. I mean, they were scared of making caricatures of female faces so sculpted the Sisters of Battle with male ones...

on imperial flow...Empror was white, they not... so inquisition them

 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
There are black people. What you see on the table is not indicative of the background, especially as you can just paint them however you want.
Also, you should pick up the 4th ed rulebook. There is A black catachan guardsman.

How very eloquent. That emote has tons meaning


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vermis wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Again, not indicative of the background. There are no official pictures of the caradochians, nor the Old Ones, and they certainly exist.

Dear black people,

you are now considered as obscure, weird, and alien as caradochians (whatever those are) and space frogs.

Hope this helps.

Wuv,
Vermis.

My point was that if there is no picture, that does not necessarily mean it does not exist in the setting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
All my Sisters are black. And blonde. I know… but come on, it is the future!

Hairdye is hairesy though.

The entire Glavian culture are Black, and are (according to the Eisenhorn and Ravenor books) among the best pilots the Imperium can field.

In all likelyhood there would probably be not be races as we know them 38 thousand years in the future. That being said, GW is in a particular catch-22 in regards to races and gender. If they make models with prominent racial/gender features, those models will be taken as offensive caricatures by some people (perhaps with good reason depending on the sculpt) If they make models without prominent racial/gender features and tell people to use their paint brush or imagination, they get slammed for not representing race or gender in their models. I think this is why Sisters of Battle keep getting pushed back.

I think they could do a better job then they are currently doing, but it is difficult to walk that line in 28mm heroic proportioned characters.

Also, the designers are (mostly?) white males. The majority of the players (at least that I have seen) are white males. Unless some other input is added, they are going to go with a white male as their basis. That is human nature. Diversity is not natural, it is learned. Only someone who opens their mind to others reaps the benefits of diversity.

Well for one there's the Nocturnians, who are most certainly black. Secondly there's the black leader of the Adeptus Arbites in one of the old Dark Millennium comics. Thirdly there's the Black Librarian in DOW II. Besides that, obviously any planet that has bright sunlight will have a black population.

 WellSpokenMan wrote:
In all likelyhood there would probably be not be races as we know them 38 thousand years in the future. That being said, GW is in a particular catch-22 in regards to races and gender. If they make models with prominent racial/gender features, those models will be taken as offensive caricatures by some people (perhaps with good reason depending on the sculpt) If they make models without prominent racial/gender features and tell people to use their paint brush or imagination, they get slammed for not representing race or gender in their models. I think this is why Sisters of Battle keep getting pushed back.

I think they could do a better job then they are currently doing, but it is difficult to walk that line in 28mm heroic proportioned characters.

Also, the designers are (mostly?) white males. The majority of the players (at least that I have seen) are white males. Unless some other input is added, they are going to go with a white male as their basis. That is human nature. Diversity is not natural, it is learned. Only someone who opens their mind to others reaps the benefits of diversity.

So... for a company that touts itself as the best model-making company in the business, they can't hire sculptors who can sculpt women or people of non-Caucasian ethnicity?

Are you fething kidding me? This has been possible since the days of Ral Partha. Plenty of other model companies sculpt female models and/or people of color exceptionally well... and the overpriced plastic crack-monkies at GW can't? If this is an issue of skill, then GW needs to fire its current sculptors and hire some with the requisite skills. A drive for diversity in geek culture and the IPs of fandoms is nothing new.

There aren't any Asians either. While the White Scars may be based on Mongol and Hun cultures/lore, based on the cover art of Scars, they don't look like me ;P

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Sisters of Battle

Whom GW tends to prefer to pretend doesn't exist.

 Psienesis wrote:

 WellSpokenMan wrote:


I think they could do a better job then they are currently doing, but it is difficult to walk that line in 28mm heroic proportioned characters.

So... for a company that touts itself as the best model-making company in the business, they can't hire sculptors who can sculpt women or people of non-Caucasian ethnicity?

Are you fething kidding me? This has been possible since the days of Ral Partha. Plenty of other model companies sculpt female models and/or people of color exceptionally well... and the overpriced plastic crack-monkies at GW can't? If this is an issue of skill, then GW needs to fire its current sculptors and hire some with the requisite skills. A drive for diversity in geek culture and the IPs of fandoms is nothing new.

I just googled Ral Partha African on an image search. I've seen their female models already. I am not sold on that as a gold standard. Did you read my entire post? I didn't say it was impossible. I said it was difficult to make everybody happy, because regardless of intention there will always be people who will key in on one spect of a model (or statement) and go off half cocked.

 Naberiel wrote:
on imperial flow...Empror was white, they not... so inquisition them

Isn't the Emperor turkish? In all official artworks, he's actually quite tan.

 Formosa wrote:
real answer.

the painters are white, so they paint "themselves" if this game was made up of a majority of black players and run by black guys then people would be asking where all the white guys are.

in universe, there are, I mean there are massive amounts of other cultures, even albinos, centaurs (yep) and all sorts of other stuff.

THIS^^^^

Sergeant Apone would like a word with you



In relation to the question, same could be asked of other ethnicities, why are there few Asian, Arabic, American Indian, Aboriginal faces/sculpts?
Probably as already mentioned, GW is a white British company and always has been. Dosent mean they are racist, just that they are white British-centric.

Right, their biases are unconscious, not conscious.

 Formosa wrote:

in universe, there are, I mean there are massive amounts of other cultures, even albinos, centaurs (yep) and all sorts of other stuff.

Can we go back to this for a moment? Where are the centaurs???

Also, how large is the black minority in England? In the States almost everyone these days has one or multiple black friends- so anyone who creates fiction in the US probably has a higher chance of one or more black people turning up.

3.3%

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171776_290558.pdf

 WellSpokenMan wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 WellSpokenMan wrote:


I think they could do a better job then they are currently doing, but it is difficult to walk that line in 28mm heroic proportioned characters.

So... for a company that touts itself as the best model-making company in the business, they can't hire sculptors who can sculpt women or people of non-Caucasian ethnicity?

Are you fething kidding me? This has been possible since the days of Ral Partha. Plenty of other model companies sculpt female models and/or people of color exceptionally well... and the overpriced plastic crack-monkies at GW can't? If this is an issue of skill, then GW needs to fire its current sculptors and hire some with the requisite skills. A drive for diversity in geek culture and the IPs of fandoms is nothing new.

I just googled Ral Partha African on an image search. I've seen their female models already. I am not sold on that as a gold standard. Did you read my entire post? I didn't say it was impossible. I said it was difficult to make everybody happy, because regardless of intention there will always be people who will key in on one spect of a model (or statement) and go off half cocked.

GW is, one, not a company that gives much of a feth about public opinion. I mean, look at how they treat their fans. Further, any sculptor worth the name could sculpt a character of a given ethnic group with marked physiological traits and not have it look like a caricature. That comes down to simple artistic skill.

Out-of-Universe explanation (my theory. I could be wrong): Games Workshop is in an area where there are VERY few black people. It's probably hard for the Games Workshop people to remember that Black people even exist due to that. So it gets reflected in the models.

This explains why there's a lot more black people in non-GW direct publications like Black Library.

In-universe explanation: None needed. Black people are referred to in several places, although perhaps not as often as one might like. Even Fenris is stated to have some on the southern continents in one of the Space Wolf novels, IIRC.


Of note is that a Salamanders novel explicitly states that the people of Nocturne are dark-skinned even before becoming Salamanders (AKA black). Just not the unnatural charcoal black of the Salamanders (So the people of nocturne are "true natural African black" or whatever you want to call it before they become Salamanders). This scientifically makes logical sense when you consider what the planet of Nocturne is like (from what I've heard).

 SharkoutofWata wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

in universe, there are, I mean there are massive amounts of other cultures, even albinos, centaurs (yep) and all sorts of other stuff.

Can we go back to this for a moment? Where are the centaurs???

IIRC, and not sure if this is what he's referring to, but there's a Black Library short story where some Imperial Guard get stranded on a nonImperium planet inhabited by centaurs. The centaurs are in a civil war between chaos Khorne corrupted centaurs and non-corrupted ones. It turns out that the centaurs are descendants of humans stranded there long ago (so I guess they're technically abhumans. But mutated so far from human stock that the Imperium would never accept them).

In the end, the sole surviving Imperium member helps the non-Chaos centaurs win, and then gets rescued by Imperial forces who are unaware of the centaurs there. They ask him to tell them about the planet and he basically tells them there's nothing of note there and the Imperium shouldn't bother colonizing it, ensuring the centaurs are left alone and not purged by the Imperium. It ends with him wondering if the Emperor would have approved.


....in retrospect I wish we had more WH40k stories like that.

Just FYI: The Salamander character in the Audio book: The Dam nation of Python has a thick African accent. I like that the good guys of the 40k universe are black. Feels right, though I don't know much about the fluff and even less about African culture. I think giving the Sallies a more African vibe would be rad. I mean we have ancient Egyptians (Necron), Communist Chinese (Tau), Ancient Mongols (White Scars), Vampires (Blood Angels), Anglo Crusaders (Templars), Americans in Vietnam (Catachans), Nazis (Death Corp), Russian Cossacks (Vostroyan), knights Errant (Grey Knights), Various WWI (Astra Militarum), Norse Vikings (Space Wolves), Babylonian gods or something like that I think (Chaos Daemons).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grrr "Damnation of Pythos" stupid autocorrect.

It's probably hard for the Games Workshop people to remember that Black people even exist due to that

Uhm really? Not sure if serious?

@doktor_g: I think you could pretty much tag the whole Imperial Regime as Nazi-esque given that's how it's described in the intro to 40k.
Death Korps of Krieg are WW1 era Germans. There wasn't really a lot of the pickelhaube helmets in WW2 Germany. The Black Templars are more like Teutonic knights.

Forget about the Salamanders.

Celestial Lions are legitimately sub-Saharan African and yes they still exist and are rebuilding.

 Psienesis wrote:

 WellSpokenMan wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 WellSpokenMan wrote:


I think they could do a better job then they are currently doing, but it is difficult to walk that line in 28mm heroic proportioned characters.

So... for a company that touts itself as the best model-making company in the business, they can't hire sculptors who can sculpt women or people of non-Caucasian ethnicity?

Are you fething kidding me? This has been possible since the days of Ral Partha. Plenty of other model companies sculpt female models and/or people of color exceptionally well... and the overpriced plastic crack-monkies at GW can't? If this is an issue of skill, then GW needs to fire its current sculptors and hire some with the requisite skills. A drive for diversity in geek culture and the IPs of fandoms is nothing new.

I just googled Ral Partha African on an image search. I've seen their female models already. I am not sold on that as a gold standard. Did you read my entire post? I didn't say it was impossible. I said it was difficult to make everybody happy, because regardless of intention there will always be people who will key in on one spect of a model (or statement) and go off half cocked.

GW is, one, not a company that gives much of a feth about public opinion. I mean, look at how they treat their fans. Further, any sculptor worth the name could sculpt a character of a given ethnic group with marked physiological traits and not have it look like a caricature. That comes down to simple artistic skill.

I'm not a GW apologist. I specifically said it could be done better. I said it is difficult to make everyone happy. I stand by that. I have seen very good miniatures with physiological traits, but this is the company that made Catachans. I think they are more intrested in selling nice safe white models to their mostly white customers and aren't particularly interested in going throught the effort to put out a product that may upset as many of their fans as it makes happy. Most Heroic scale 28mm models I have seen have exagerated features. I think that makes things more of a challenge. Not an insurmountable one, but a challenge none the less.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Out-of-Universe explanation (my theory. I could be wrong): Games Workshop is in an area where there are VERY few black people. It's probably hard for the Games Workshop people to remember that Black people even exist due to that.

Wrong.

2011 Census result for Nottingham was:
71.5% White (65.4% White British)
13.1% Asian
7.3% Black British
6.7% Mixed Race
1.5% Other

I shan't besmirch this forum with a link but one of the Google results I got looking for that was a thread on a Ku Klux Klan related forum that opened with a scumbag complaining: "I went to Nottingham last year, and I have never seen so much race mixing in one area in my life, even when I visited London on a few occasions there wasn't anywhere near as much."

As for sculptors, the Perry's were still working for GW when they release ethnic African heads for their plastic American Civil War miniatures.

He obviously never visited Brummy so

 Ratius wrote:
He obviously never visited Brummy so

Or Sheffield lol.