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"In this very thread my argument stands uncontested. No counter argument has stood up against it. "

1 spyder.

1 spyder. Not 1 unit. Not spyders.

It even reiterates that in the special rule for the formation.

You are being deliberately ignorant, then claiming that your argument is uncontested, when in fact EVERYONE AND THEIR DOG is contesting it.

Anyway, I'm now going to ignore you, col_impact, and I suggest everyone else does too.

 Therion wrote:
I left this thread because it was impossible to go through one page without col_impact making his best attempt at getting the thread locked with his 'my argument stands uncontested' nonsense. He literally does not understand what contest means. I see nothing's changed.

Carry on.

Feel free to stand up and put forward a rational, consistent argument that stands up to scrutiny like I have already in this thread and am prepared to do so again. Please do. I love a good challenge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

zerosignal wrote:
"In this very thread my argument stands uncontested. No counter argument has stood up against it. "

1 spyder.

1 spyder. Not 1 unit. Not spyders.

It even reiterates that in the special rule for the formation.

You are being deliberately ignorant, then claiming that your argument is uncontested, when in fact EVERYONE AND THEIR DOG is contesting it.

Anyway, I'm now going to ignore you, col_impact, and I suggest everyone else does too.

Same to you. Feel free to stand up and put forward a rational, consistent argument that stands up to scrutiny like I have already in this thread and am prepared to do so again. Please do. I love a good challenge.

You don't get to topple my argument with contentless posturing and pretending to have an argument. If you have an actual rational and consistent argument that follows from the rules and that holds up to scrutiny then by all means share it.

Sure people can 'contest' my argument but if they are contesting it with non-rational, inconsistent, and misleading arguments that don't follow the rules then they are not actually contesting it.

So yeah, my RAW argument (that actually follows rationally and consistently from the rules) stands uncontested.

We're clearly at the point where we are just re-stating ourselves. My bad for opening that can of worms back up.

How have people been finding the Canoptek harvest, both inside and outside of a scarab farm? I've actually yet to run it, as I've been doing standard wraithwing, more or less.

 luke1705 wrote:
We're clearly at the point where we are just re-stating ourselves. My bad for opening that can of worms back up.

How have people been finding the Canoptek harvest, both inside and outside of a scarab farm? I've actually yet to run it, as I've been doing standard wraithwing, more or less.

CAD Wraithwing is good for a dedicated CC unit (maybe with a D Lord). Will fit fine in a list that doesn't go heavy Canoptek.

As far as Harvest goes I am loving spamming min size units. Scarabs and Spyders have their hidden uses and are definitely not tax. If I add anything to a min unit its TransD beamers.

Fragile wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Well, in the case of Imperial Knights or Screamerstar, there's really nowhere that's "safe" from them. The fact of the matter is they're still a 6" move unit, so infiltrating nearly anywhere in the center of the board means that a Knight that wants to charge you on turn 2 probably will be able to.

Edit: Callidus'd

Again, why would you infiltrate near the center if you are facing a Knight.

Most of that type of units have 12" movement, so there goes board control.

Quite the opposite. That is exactly what board control means.

You simply put the Flayed Ones in a position that requires the enemy to respond in a certain manner. If they deploy these 12" things then you infiltrate the Flayed Ones to the sides and threaten flanks. You can even be cagey with it and set up 22 Inches away. See if your opponent will try a 10" charge. And even if he does and succeeds, then he has thrown his high value Knight, death star at a trash unit on the far side of the board. Meanwhile you gain flexibility to move without having to deal with that threat on the remainder of the board.

Are we talking about small FO units or the large blob with the Bargelord that col_impact mentioned?

col_impact wrote:
my RAW argument [...] stands uncontested.

You didn't provide any arguments yet, only an (unsupported) interpretation.

col_impact wrote:

 Therion wrote:
I left this thread because it was impossible to go through one page without col_impact making his best attempt at getting the thread locked with his 'my argument stands uncontested' nonsense. He literally does not understand what contest means. I see nothing's changed.

Carry on.

Feel free to stand up and put forward a rational, consistent argument that stands up to scrutiny like I have already in this thread and am prepared to do so again. Please do. I love a good challenge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

zerosignal wrote:
"In this very thread my argument stands uncontested. No counter argument has stood up against it. "

1 spyder.

1 spyder. Not 1 unit. Not spyders.

It even reiterates that in the special rule for the formation.

You are being deliberately ignorant, then claiming that your argument is uncontested, when in fact EVERYONE AND THEIR DOG is contesting it.

Anyway, I'm now going to ignore you, col_impact, and I suggest everyone else does too.

Same to you. Feel free to stand up and put forward a rational, consistent argument that stands up to scrutiny like I have already in this thread and am prepared to do so again. Please do. I love a good challenge.

You don't get to topple my argument with contentless posturing and pretending to have an argument. If you have an actual rational and consistent argument that follows from the rules and that holds up to scrutiny then by all means share it.

Sure people can 'contest' my argument but if they are contesting it with non-rational, inconsistent, and misleading arguments that don't follow the rules then they are not actually contesting it.

So yeah, my RAW argument (that actually follows rationally and consistently from the rules) stands uncontested.

If it was "uncontested" there wouldn't be dozens of people telling you how full of bull you are.

The rule for Adaptive Protocols states "The Spyder". Not "The Unit of Spyders", not "One of the Spyders", not "A Spyder in this formation", but "The Spyder". Which is about as RAW as you're going to get until there's an official FAQ about it.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove by screaming about how smart and logical you are while ignoring everyone else. All it does is make you look quite the opposite.

It can be either way, both arguments are valid.

I've never played with it as more than 1 spyder or seen it played with more than 1 spyder. No one want to be TFG at the store and this is the kind of argument that turns you from a nice opponent playing a new dex to TFG that no one wants to play. Codex says spyder, or the spyder never says unit and in the formation rules it says; 1 canoptek spyder, 1 unit of canoptek wraiths, 1 unit of canoptek scarabs. It doesn't make sense for them to change syntax without it meaning something. Furthermore the options in the canoptek spyder page refer to a unit, as declared under unit type, not to a model which is declared in the formation since it specifically doesn't state unit. Thus you would follow the stats for the spyder and all of it's special rules but you don't have access to options that are for the unit such as increasing unit size.

Anyway, I've found that in a decurion the formation is very effective and provides some much needed tarpit and a little hammer for your army. Scarabs with RP are almost guaranteed to take at least 2 assault phases to kill which slows down your opponents dangerous unit. Meanwhile wraiths can eat light tanks, shooting support units, or tarpit assault units very quickly now that they are beasts. The spyder only needs to get off RP for 1 or 2 turns and then it's served it's purpose and can act as counter assault. The best way to run it I've found is to keep the scarabs lean at 3-4 bases(since you can buff it to 4/5 first turn which is enough wounds to make combat) and use cover to hide them as they approach their target. Wraiths I find it easy to go overboard, however 4 works well for me since it's not a huge point sink while they can still afford to lose a member and still be effective in combat, I also favour giving them the beamers as the ap2 shooting helps especially if you plan on tarpitting an assault/elite unit as you can soften it up(or get lucky and instant kill a wraithknight charging you like matt). I also find the wraithwing to be effective with the destroyer cult since you can make use of the tax lord by putting it with wraiths, sure he kinda slows them down but you can break off the turn you want to charge if you feel you'll need the fleet charge distance to make combat.

I'm rather impressed with both side's RAW, and the moment that happens we enter the dark hateful territory of RAI. Listening to the spider debate is about as vitriolic as listening to members of ISIS and members of the Iranian revolutionary guard debate who is following the 1 true form of Islam. Save your passion for YMDC.

 schadenfreude wrote:
I'm rather impressed with both side's RAW, and the moment that happens we enter the dark hateful territory of RAI. Listening to the spider debate is about as vitriolic as listening to members of ISIS and members of the Iranian revolutionary guard debate who is following the 1 true form of Islam. Save your passion for YMDC.

Well, they have it easier, whoever is still alive at the end is right .

Right, all that silliness aside, let's talk about the Conclave of the Burning One.

The way I've been running it is thusly:

Conclave of the Burning One
Shard of the Nightbringer - 240
"Shadow" Cryptek (Veil of Darkness, Phase Shifter, God Shackle) - 125
"Solar" Cryptek (Solar Staff, Phase Shifter) - 105

470 points

For 100 points of upgrades, you gain a Teleport, one turn Invisibility (sorta), 4++/4+++ on both of the Crypteks, and T8 all around. Not bad. Even without any sort of Deep Strike scatter help, the unit is very small and ignores all terrain, so it's easy to place in such a way that mishaps are a relatively low chance.

I think the Conclave is pretty comparable to most Deathstars out there. It has pretty good shooting: 2 Staff of Lights, one with Blind, is pretty solid shooting on it's own. The C'Tan's powers are unreliable, but overall fairly strong. And Gaze is, of course, fairly insanely strong for what it is. In Assault, the Crypteks are a tarpit (T8 and 3/4 chance of ignoring anything that's not Destroyer? enjoy killing that) while the Nightbringer is a proper monster with his high statline and Fleshbane. Even against things like GMCs he can hold his own and take them down. They can't particularly deal with Knights in Assault, but then, what can, other than massed Warscythes and 9+ Wraiths?

The durability is extremely high. If they're in a tight spot, popping the Solar Staff is always an option, but against just a couple squads, they don't even need it. Immunity to S4 (so most small arms fire) and a tough nut to crack even for heavy weapons with their high toughness and good saves.

It's possible to run slightly cheaper if you drop the Phase Shifters and just grab a Chronometron, but it makes the Crypteks relatively easy pickings in Assault (still T8, but only 4+/4+++) and not nearly as durable, saving 2/3 of wounds instead of 3/4 against shooting.

I have had lots of success with it, the only time it died, it took out a bunch of Crisis Suits and ate an entire 1850 Tau list's worth of shooting before it went out.

What have your experiences with it been like?

zerosignal wrote:


1 spyder.

1 spyder. Not 1 unit. Not spyders.

I find it so strange that a 40k player would make this argument. Every single model on the table is part of a unit, and that unit can consist of a single model. 1 Spyder is 1 unit of Spyders (although not necessarily vice versa). By following your argument to its logical conclusion, we'd have to accept that rules affecting units and not specifically models can't affect the Spyder. Want to cast Paroxysm on it? Nope, you can't, it's 1 Spyder, not a unit of Spyders.

col_impact wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Ugh please stop, just stop suggesting that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ugh please stop, just stop suggesting that.

Stop suggesting what?

Anyway check this list out.


Reclamation Legion
Catacomb Command Barge Gauntlet of Fire, Phase Shifter, Phylactery, The Nightmare Shroud, Warscythe

5X Immortal


5X Tomb Blade Nebuloscope, Shield Vanes, Twin-linked Gauss Blaster
5X Tomb Blade Nebuloscope, Particle Beamer, Shield Vanes

10x Necron Warrior
10x Necron Warrior

Auxiliary
Canoptek Harvest
3x Canoptek Scarab
3x Spyder (1 with Gloom Prism)
3 x Wraiths (TransD)

Canoptek Harvest
3x Canoptek Scarab
3x Spyder (1 with Gloom Prism)
3 x Wraiths (TransD)

Canoptek Harvest
3x Canoptek Scarab
3x Spyder (1 with Gloom Prism)
3 x Wraiths (1 with Whipcoils)

Well you couldnt bring it to a tournament obvs.

Okapi wrote:
1 Spyder is 1 unit of Spyders (although not necessarily vice versa).

Then explain why in the very same formation they use the terms '1 unit of Canoptek Wraiths' and '1 unit of Canoptek Scarabs'. It is because there is a difference. 1 spyder means just that, 1 spyder and not 1 unit of spyders with 2 or 3 spyders.

Requizen wrote:
Right, all that silliness aside, let's talk about the Conclave of the Burning One.

The way I've been running it is thusly:

Conclave of the Burning One
Shard of the Nightbringer - 240
"Shadow" Cryptek (Veil of Darkness, Phase Shifter, God Shackle) - 125
"Solar" Cryptek (Solar Staff, Phase Shifter) - 105

470 points

I was thinking similar but turn the solar cryptek into a tanktek by giving him the nightmare shroud and solar thermasite for a rerollable 2+ on a T8 model.

Although might be risky as I assume S8 AP2 has a chance to ID him, because he is still technically T4? Not sure on that one.

Haven't tried it yet though.

Okapi wrote:

zerosignal wrote:


1 spyder.

1 spyder. Not 1 unit. Not spyders.

I find it so strange that a 40k player would make this argument. Every single model on the table is part of a unit, and that unit can consist of a single model. 1 Spyder is 1 unit of Spyders (although not necessarily vice versa). By following your argument to its logical conclusion, we'd have to accept that rules affecting units and not specifically models can't affect the Spyder. Want to cast Paroxysm on it? Nope, you can't, it's 1 Spyder, not a unit of Spyders.

It's simple english. It even states in the special rules for the formation 'the canoptek spyder from this formation...'

Not the unit. Not the spyders. Spyder single. Not plural.

I find it very strange anyone would argue otherwise. It's VERY clearly a restriction on the unit size in order to take the formation.

I'm willing to concede - should have been clarified in the formation restrictions ('The canoptek spyder unit in this formation can only consist of one canoptek spyder model').

But hey, geedubs, because... reasons.

FAQ will sort it out

The formation is strong as is. If you can take 3 spyders (or even take more outside the formation, to make more scarabs in the unit with RP), it seems waaaaay overpowered.

That conclave kit is EXACTLY how I am going to run mine. I just need do decide what to drop out of the list that I am now very fond of haha. I need 230 points....hmm...

Tekron wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Right, all that silliness aside, let's talk about the Conclave of the Burning One.

The way I've been running it is thusly:

Conclave of the Burning One
Shard of the Nightbringer - 240
"Shadow" Cryptek (Veil of Darkness, Phase Shifter, God Shackle) - 125
"Solar" Cryptek (Solar Staff, Phase Shifter) - 105

470 points

I was thinking similar but turn the solar cryptek into a tanktek by giving him the nightmare shroud and solar thermasite for a rerollable 2+ on a T8 model.

Although might be risky as I assume S8 AP2 has a chance to ID him, because he is still technically T4? Not sure on that one.

Haven't tried it yet though.

It does have a weakness against S8 or higher guns. As the model is still T4, they can be doubled out. However, since there are 2 Crypteks in the unit, they'll always have a 4+ Reanimate (+1 per Cryptek).

Surviving incoming fire is about positioning and Look Out Sir rolls. Putting the Nightbringer out front protects you from ID weapons, but since he's only a 5+ FNP he's actually got a lesser save than the Crypteks. He does have 4 wounds, though, so you have to weigh out how you're going to split up wounds between all of them. Since it's 2 ICs and 1 Character, you can sort of dance the wounds around fairly easily with Look Out Sir.

luke1705 wrote:That conclave kit is EXACTLY how I am going to run mine. I just need do decide what to drop out of the list that I am now very fond of haha. I need 230 points....hmm...

Yeah, 470 points for 3 models is pretty crazy. Still, for 8 T8 wounds and lots of Invuln and FNP/RP rolls, I think it's fairly worthwhile.

 Tyran wrote:

Fragile wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Well, in the case of Imperial Knights or Screamerstar, there's really nowhere that's "safe" from them. The fact of the matter is they're still a 6" move unit, so infiltrating nearly anywhere in the center of the board means that a Knight that wants to charge you on turn 2 probably will be able to.

Edit: Callidus'd

Again, why would you infiltrate near the center if you are facing a Knight.

Most of that type of units have 12" movement, so there goes board control.

Quite the opposite. That is exactly what board control means.

You simply put the Flayed Ones in a position that requires the enemy to respond in a certain manner. If they deploy these 12" things then you infiltrate the Flayed Ones to the sides and threaten flanks. You can even be cagey with it and set up 22 Inches away. See if your opponent will try a 10" charge. And even if he does and succeeds, then he has thrown his high value Knight, death star at a trash unit on the far side of the board. Meanwhile you gain flexibility to move without having to deal with that threat on the remainder of the board.

Are we talking about small FO units or the large blob with the Bargelord that col_impact mentioned?

I wouldnt go with less than 10 personally. It provides a cheap enough threat to be expendable but enough to have to be dealt with. While rerolling would be nice, I would trust in the cover/armor and RP to keep the Flayed ones in the fight. A bargelord babysitting them is a waste of another board control unit. Make the enemy respond to multiple threats. If everything is in one spot, then it is much easier to handle.

 Ghaz wrote:

Okapi wrote:
1 Spyder is 1 unit of Spyders (although not necessarily vice versa).

Then explain why in the very same formation they use the terms '1 unit of Canoptek Wraiths' and '1 unit of Canoptek Scarabs'. It is because there is a difference. 1 spyder means just that, 1 spyder and not 1 unit of spyders with 2 or 3 spyders.

Because it's GW and they make horrible mistakes like this in every single codex they print, and take forever to correct these errors. As a Magic, X-Wing and Warhammer player I've come to expect well written rules from Wizards and FFG, and something of a semicomprehensible mess from GW. In any case, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that the argument "it's a model, not a unit" doesn't hold up, because a Spyder is a unit. I could throw you a line like "then explain why it says "1 unit of Canoptek Spyders" elsewhere in the Codex" or "then explain why the promo material shows the Harvest with multiple Spyders", but unlike you I accept that there is no clear answer to this problem. We simply don't know, and while we wait for a FAQ (which I believe will simply add a line to the restrictions box), the only thing that we know is 100% legal no matter the interpretation is running units of a single Spyder.

It seems reasonably plausible that GW originally intended the unit to be 1-3 strong, as reflected in fluff text and pictures as well as promo material, but changed it sometime during playtesting, probably because the RP bubble got too large and difficult to deal with.

The debate about the number of spyders allowed, whilst somewhat related, is really not worth discussing in this thread.

So please don't discuss it here any more.

Further posts on this tangent will be treated as spam.

Fragile wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

Fragile wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Well, in the case of Imperial Knights or Screamerstar, there's really nowhere that's "safe" from them. The fact of the matter is they're still a 6" move unit, so infiltrating nearly anywhere in the center of the board means that a Knight that wants to charge you on turn 2 probably will be able to.

Edit: Callidus'd

Again, why would you infiltrate near the center if you are facing a Knight.

Most of that type of units have 12" movement, so there goes board control.

Quite the opposite. That is exactly what board control means.

You simply put the Flayed Ones in a position that requires the enemy to respond in a certain manner. If they deploy these 12" things then you infiltrate the Flayed Ones to the sides and threaten flanks. You can even be cagey with it and set up 22 Inches away. See if your opponent will try a 10" charge. And even if he does and succeeds, then he has thrown his high value Knight, death star at a trash unit on the far side of the board. Meanwhile you gain flexibility to move without having to deal with that threat on the remainder of the board.

Are we talking about small FO units or the large blob with the Bargelord that col_impact mentioned?

I wouldnt go with less than 10 personally. It provides a cheap enough threat to be expendable but enough to have to be dealt with. While rerolling would be nice, I would trust in the cover/armor and RP to keep the Flayed ones in the fight. A bargelord babysitting them is a waste of another board control unit. Make the enemy respond to multiple threats. If everything is in one spot, then it is much easier to handle.

Somewhere between 10 and 15 seems right to me as well. 20 seems just like a lot of points for an all Assault unit, but less than 10 is a scary place to be since you might just get shot dead before doing anything. 2 units of 10 might be a bit too many points for FOs depending on what you're playing, but it probably is a very good option overall.

Tekron wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Right, all that silliness aside, let's talk about the Conclave of the Burning One.

The way I've been running it is thusly:

Conclave of the Burning One
Shard of the Nightbringer - 240
"Shadow" Cryptek (Veil of Darkness, Phase Shifter, God Shackle) - 125
"Solar" Cryptek (Solar Staff, Phase Shifter) - 105

470 points

I was thinking similar but turn the solar cryptek into a tanktek by giving him the nightmare shroud and solar thermasite for a rerollable 2+ on a T8 model.

Although might be risky as I assume S8 AP2 has a chance to ID him, because he is still technically T4? Not sure on that one.

Haven't tried it yet though.

Ok so each Cryptek can have 1 relic from Mephrit and 1 relic from the book. So if you have the tanktek then you lose the ability to have people snapshoot at you, and you can't have the shroud anywhere else in your army. It's actually the second point that does it for me. I prefer having a tanking d lord with my wraiths, so I can't have a true tanktek. Seriously though, someone tell me why we can have just 1 non-named character in the entire army with a 2+ save. What are we, Tyranids?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Requizen wrote:

luke1705 wrote:That conclave kit is EXACTLY how I am going to run mine. I just need do decide what to drop out of the list that I am now very fond of haha. I need 230 points....hmm...

Yeah, 470 points for 3 models is pretty crazy. Still, for 8 T8 wounds and lots of Invuln and FNP/RP rolls, I think it's fairly worthwhile.

I don't know what you're talking about....my 3 Flyrants are 720 points

They probably figured that a 2+ on a model that now reanimates every wound was a bit much.

They're probably not wrong. That said, the real thing that killed my enthusiasm for Overlords is that Resurrection Orbs are on Crypteks now, meaning less synergy with any unit they would join. Lychguard, I guess, but Orikan is just plain better for that.

Only time so far I've gotten around to playing an HQ who isn't a Cryptek, a named Cryptek or a Destroyer Lord was for a Deathstar gimmick in one game.

 luke1705 wrote:

Tekron wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Right, all that silliness aside, let's talk about the Conclave of the Burning One.

The way I've been running it is thusly:

Conclave of the Burning One
Shard of the Nightbringer - 240
"Shadow" Cryptek (Veil of Darkness, Phase Shifter, God Shackle) - 125
"Solar" Cryptek (Solar Staff, Phase Shifter) - 105

470 points

I was thinking similar but turn the solar cryptek into a tanktek by giving him the nightmare shroud and solar thermasite for a rerollable 2+ on a T8 model.

Although might be risky as I assume S8 AP2 has a chance to ID him, because he is still technically T4? Not sure on that one.

Haven't tried it yet though.

Ok so each Cryptek can have 1 relic from Mephrit and 1 relic from the book. So if you have the tanktek then you lose the ability to have people snapshoot at you, and you can't have the shroud anywhere else in your army. It's actually the second point that does it for me. I prefer having a tanking d lord with my wraiths, so I can't have a true tanktek. Seriously though, someone tell me why we can have just 1 non-named character in the entire army with a 2+ save. What are we, Tyranids?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Requizen wrote:

luke1705 wrote:That conclave kit is EXACTLY how I am going to run mine. I just need do decide what to drop out of the list that I am now very fond of haha. I need 230 points....hmm...

Yeah, 470 points for 3 models is pretty crazy. Still, for 8 T8 wounds and lots of Invuln and FNP/RP rolls, I think it's fairly worthwhile.

I don't know what you're talking about....my 3 Flyrants are 720 points

I'd gladly put 250 more points in if Nightbringer could swoop around the battlefield raining Gazes from the Sky

I think a lot of people haven't explored much of the new codex - or at least are only willing to theory-craft rather than attempt in practice.

Some thoughts in units that are not wraiths I recently used:

Burning One Formation w/ Nightbringer:
Amazing. Incredible damage output for any situation, particularly with NB's Gaze of Death being able to wound just about anything. Surprisingly durable. Hordes are annoying but you can whittle them down quite a bit at range first.

Anni Nexus:
Decent. I love powerful pie plates - but the unit is unsure of what it wants to do. If you're sniping pie plates at infantry clumps or vehicle parks - the two AB's are just sitting there doing nothing, and if you're in range, your output is *ridiculous*, but you're also uncomfortably close to the action, and you'll quickly lose your shields. Also a HUGE target for deep strikes or pods.

Flayed ones:
INCREDIBLE. Max squads, with Decurion. Put them in range of a Cryptek. They don't die. They kill. Yeah, vehicles can tarpit and knights are a pain but *anything* short just melts. And it feels good, finally giving them a purpose.

Lychguard:
I love scytheguard but sword and board with Orikan has been best so far. A great general purpose unit - and once Orikan MWAHAHA's, they're able to tackle just about anything. Movement is painful but there are ways around that.

Praetorians:
Lots of fun. Triarchs make them better but I find the tripos tend to go down too swiftly. Instead, jumping around the board to snipe-assault support units and glass cannons or the occasional lone monstrous creature is great. I treat them like Bounty Hunters.

IA:12 units are all... bleh.
I REALLY want to see the HQ's updated, because I miss having a ridiculous beat-stick HQ rather than a primarily support HQ.
But I will say... if you have never used a Night Shroud - proxy one. Try it out for yourself.
Night Shrouds are tremendously useful, tough, and even one can easily earn back his points - either from direct damage or because when you tell your opponent about his bombs, he will IMMEDIATELY absorb all incoming fire which means those other tough units we have just got closer, unscathed, to their target.

Does anyone use Lords or Overlords on foot? Using the Reclamation Legion I find myself taking the Command Barge and occasionally Zahndrekh, and with a Combined Arms Detachment Crypteks, Szeras and Orikan seem so much better.

What I like about the Night Shroud and Tesseract Ark is that they're Stormraven and Land Raider equivalent vehicles... That don't waste time on troop transport and just take firepower.

Ferros wrote:
I think a lot of people haven't explored much of the new codex - or at least are only willing to theory-craft rather than attempt in practice.

Some thoughts in units that are not wraiths I recently used:

Burning One Formation w/ Nightbringer:
Amazing. Incredible damage output for any situation, particularly with NB's Gaze of Death being able to wound just about anything. Surprisingly durable. Hordes are annoying but you can whittle them down quite a bit at range first.

See above. In the ~5-6 games I've used it so far, it's died twice and both times did a stupid amount of damage and fire soaking before it went down. A fantastic formation/Deathstar.

Anni Nexus:
Decent. I love powerful pie plates - but the unit is unsure of what it wants to do. If you're sniping pie plates at infantry clumps or vehicle parks - the two AB's are just sitting there doing nothing, and if you're in range, your output is *ridiculous*, but you're also uncomfortably close to the action, and you'll quickly lose your shields. Also a HUGE target for deep strikes or pods.

Meh. Expensive and the gimmick (passing QS) is so situational that it's not even funny. I'd only bring it if I really needed to free up some HS slots.

Flayed ones:
INCREDIBLE. Max squads, with Decurion. Put them in range of a Cryptek. They don't die. They kill. Yeah, vehicles can tarpit and knights are a pain but *anything* short just melts. And it feels good, finally giving them a purpose.

Love em. Have trouble with the movement, even with Infiltrate, but I love them

Lychguard:
I love scytheguard but sword and board with Orikan has been best so far. A great general purpose unit - and once Orikan MWAHAHA's, they're able to tackle just about anything. Movement is painful but there are ways around that.

Orikanstar is fantastic but also bad. It's a big expensive deathstar that will soak more damage than you can shake a stick at, but at the same time will never reach anything that doesn't want to be reached. No Infiltrate, no Fleet, 6" move, blah. I love it but outside of a Night Scythe it's just a pain to get anywhere worthwhile. And inside of a Night Scythe it's not doing what it wants to do: soak damage and act as a zone denial unit.

Praetorians:
Lots of fun. Triarchs make them better but I find the tripos tend to go down too swiftly. Instead, jumping around the board to snipe-assault support units and glass cannons or the occasional lone monstrous creature is great. I treat them like Bounty Hunters.

I like Praetorians but never find a situation where I'm like "omg I need these now". If I want lots of AP2 shooting, I have Heavy Destroyers. If I want good, fast assault, I have Wraiths. Praetorians feel like something inbetween Scytheguard and Wraiths and just are kind of awkward. I should try them more, but I can't see myself spending too much on them.

IA:12 units are all... bleh.
I REALLY want to see the HQ's updated, because I miss having a ridiculous beat-stick HQ rather than a primarily support HQ.
But I will say... if you have never used a Night Shroud - proxy one. Try it out for yourself.
Night Shrouds are tremendously useful, tough, and even one can easily earn back his points - either from direct damage or because when you tell your opponent about his bombs, he will IMMEDIATELY absorb all incoming fire which means those other tough units we have just got closer, unscathed, to their target.

I really want a Night Shroud. I try not to bring too many flyers to friendly games, but that sucker is just so cool. More durable, same killy, and nice that you can bomb one target and Tesla another, something I occasionally wish my Doom Scythe could do.