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 luke1705 wrote:

Oberron wrote:
What do people think of this (from the last several pages it didn't come up nor did i see it on the front page so I'm assuming it is something either not known about or talked about)

With the new Deathmarks they can come in if you have allied Spacewolves or marines with drop pods that come in turn one since they are considered enemy units, toss in a D.lord with the s7 ap2 flamer and you have a very nasty alpha strike. Add in a cryptek with a veil of darkness then on the next turn you can move them to safty or re-potition them to attack again and help the survival rate of the marks and D.lord.

Thoughts?

You only have your wounding on 2's for the first turn (and only against the "enemy unit" IIRC so you really waste their benefits by tying them to your unit as the "enemy". The issue really is their falloff after the first turn. They would be fine if they always wounded on 2's (even if it was just for 1 unit) but as is, it's tough to justify them

Might want to re-read that part "Hunters from Hyperspace: During the player turn in which this unit arrives from Deep Strike Reseve, all shooting attacks made by the Deathmarks in this unit will wound on To Wound rolls of 2+, regardless of the victim's Toughness" The Deathmarks still get the 2's to wound. and with a D.lord Deathmarks get to re-roll 1's for their to-wound pretty much making any hit they make is a wound. Nothing is wasted, and could easily clam a first turn slay the warlord. A tek with VOD gives them +1 to rp, three more shooting attacks at ap3 s5 (which with re-roll to 1's is almost a 2s to wound on t4 or less). And not to much to worry if they get caught in CC on your opponent's turn because they can then VOD away to shoot again as long as the tek lives.

They do fall off after that alpha strike but not so hard that they are useless.

Yep that was my bad I did misread that. They're definitely not bad to use in that way then. Not my personal style but it could definitely work. I think you would want a large squad or more than one squad if you're going to do that. Nothing worse than having a few dudes left in the squad you tried to kill

 adamsouza wrote:
Yes, 280 points of Triarch Praetoreans can defeat a Dreadnaught, most of the time, by averaging 20 hits to get 3 hull points in glances.
280 points also buys 19 bases of Scarabs (95 attacks, 31 hits, 5 hull points) or 21 Warriors who can do the same job from 12" away (42 shots, 21 hits, 4 Hull Points).

You should buy Triarch Pratoreans for attacks with MEQ/TEQ killing AP, not "reliable" anti tank.

Necron Anti Tank is all about volume of fire, hoping for 6's. You probably shouldn't try to achieve that volume of fire with the most expensive units in the codex.

Huh?

Most expensive unit in the Codex? They aren't even close.

Also, you don't need 280 points of TPs to take out a Dread. 130 will do it just fine. And, Knights are very, very relevant in the current meta, and few Necron's handle them in CC as well as VB/PC TPs.

5TP is 20 attacks, 10 hits and 1.6 hull points.

It would be even less as the Dread is going to kill 1 or 2 guys before the TP get to swing, so I don't see odds in the TP's favor.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Yes, 280 points of Triarch Praetoreans can defeat a Dreadnaught, most of the time, by averaging 20 hits to get 3 hull points in glances.
280 points also buys 19 bases of Scarabs (95 attacks, 31 hits, 5 hull points) or 21 Warriors who can do the same job from 12" away (42 shots, 21 hits, 4 Hull Points).

You should buy Triarch Pratoreans for attacks with MEQ/TEQ killing AP, not "reliable" anti tank.

Necron Anti Tank is all about volume of fire, hoping for 6's. You probably shouldn't try to achieve that volume of fire with the most expensive units in the codex.

Huh?

Most expensive unit in the Codex? They aren't even close.

Also, you don't need 280 points of TPs to take out a Dread. 130 will do it just fine. And, Knights are very, very relevant in the current meta, and few Necron's handle them in CC as well as VB/PC TPs.

Knights are actually quite adept at removing Praetorians, even if they charge.

Knight swings first, kills 2 (4 attacks, hits twice, 2+ to kill with no saves)
Praetorians swing next, do 2 Hull Points (32 attacks, 16 hits, 6s to glance is 2.6 HP)
Knight stomps. Each one should cover at least 2. Out of those 6, 5 die (I know it has to be in groups of 2, just for statistic's sake).
3 Praetorians remain. Next turn, he kills two again, the remaining one does statistically no HPs and then get stomped.

They can kill off a wounded Knight but nearly anything in the book can do that.

Stomp is not THAT effective unless you're assuming he rolls 3 for the D3 stomps and 6 for all three stomp results. The PTs will get their saves and RP against stomp if it doesn't roll a 6.

Zimko wrote:
Stomp is not THAT effective unless you're assuming he rolls 3 for the D3 stomps and 6 for all three stomp results. The PTs will get their saves and RP against stomp if it doesn't roll a 6.

Huh, would you look at that. I thought it was 3 Strength D hits. People at my store have some explaining to do....

Requizen wrote:

Zimko wrote:
Stomp is not THAT effective unless you're assuming he rolls 3 for the D3 stomps and 6 for all three stomp results. The PTs will get their saves and RP against stomp if it doesn't roll a 6.

Huh, would you look at that. I thought it was 3 Strength D hits. People at my store have some explaining to do....

Haha, wow. I bet you're gonna have a lot more fun fighting IKs at your store from now on. 3 Str D attacks on Stomp is nuts.

Zimko wrote:

Requizen wrote:

Zimko wrote:
Stomp is not THAT effective unless you're assuming he rolls 3 for the D3 stomps and 6 for all three stomp results. The PTs will get their saves and RP against stomp if it doesn't roll a 6.

Huh, would you look at that. I thought it was 3 Strength D hits. People at my store have some explaining to do....

Haha, wow. I bet you're gonna have a lot more fun fighting IKs at your store from now on. 3 Str D attacks on Stomp is nuts.

Only one guy ever brought one, and I think he just didn't read it closely enough haha.

Though I am now suddenly less worried about Knights at tournaments.

 Nilok wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

19 Scarab Bases with RP in turn 1, with some cover and luck it's 29 charging in turn 2.
Turn 3 and 4 I usually try to buff the other 2 units of scarabs by 10 each and then send them on kamikazi missions to disrupt enemy objectives.
The Decurion Warriors pretty much just march across the battelfield shooting until something gets in their way.
The Immortals are usually parked on the 3rd obective marker on my side of the board

If you position them right, you can have the 10 extra bases go across no man's land for a turn 1 charge since they removed the restriction requiring new scarabs to be in cohesion with non-spawed scarabs.

Daisy chain them straight into the face of your opponent's midfield for a nice big claw filled hug, then give them 10 extra bases while they are in combat because they removed that restriction as well.

@ Nilok: er what? it is clear that the spawned scarabs must be placed within 6 inches of the spyder that spawned it AND only if there was a pre-existing scarab swarm within 6 inches of the spyder at the beginning of the movement phase.

 Deuce11 wrote:

 Nilok wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

19 Scarab Bases with RP in turn 1, with some cover and luck it's 29 charging in turn 2.
Turn 3 and 4 I usually try to buff the other 2 units of scarabs by 10 each and then send them on kamikazi missions to disrupt enemy objectives.
The Decurion Warriors pretty much just march across the battelfield shooting until something gets in their way.
The Immortals are usually parked on the 3rd obective marker on my side of the board

If you position them right, you can have the 10 extra bases go across no man's land for a turn 1 charge since they removed the restriction requiring new scarabs to be in cohesion with non-spawed scarabs.

Daisy chain them straight into the face of your opponent's midfield for a nice big claw filled hug, then give them 10 extra bases while they are in combat because they removed that restriction as well.

@ Nilok: er what? it is clear that the spawned scarabs must be placed within 6 inches of the spyder that spawned it AND only if there was a pre-existing scarab swarm within 6 inches of the spyder at the beginning of the movement phase.

You're actually allowed to spawn the bases any time during your movement phase, before or after your spyder(s) move.

It's covered somewhere earlier in this very thread. WIth a half dozen spyders you can chain the scarabs most of the way across no mans land in the first turn. It's a gimmic. Most of the scarabs won't be able to reach, but it could be fun to see the look on an opponents face, or to claim a mid field objective

It really is just a gimmick. It's kinda hilarious and they might tarpit things up forever, but against a competent opponent it's more or less a speedbump. Multiwound T3 models don't really last that long if someone doesn't want them to, regardless of Fearless and RP. Or, they'll spend the entire game in a slapfight with Termagants.

Scarabs are very good at killing light infantry and vehicles, they are a viable unit.

It's not actually that huge of a gimmick when you consider that you can have them charge a vehicle or something like that for first blood possibly.

Also, it's really hard to maneuver away from the first turn charge as their movement can put them right at the 12" edge of your opponents deployment zone.

The change to Entropic Strike is pretty trivial really, but the big issue is the price change.

At 15 points, getting instant deathed isn't a huge deal. It's the same loss as having a one wound T4 model getting hit by a weapon that ignores it's save. Half the time I wanted people to be killing my Scarabs because they were low value and passably good at taking a lot of fire to fully down so long as no Thunderfire Cannons were involved.

At 20 points though, they're a much larger investment. I would no longer consider them worth taking outside of a farm, where getting a lot of them for free offsets the starting cost.

At first I was a little upset over the 25% points increase and the entropic nerf on scarabs, but in the end I was happier that they increased the cost of scarabs and not the Spyders. The scarabsa re toned down from last edition, but at least now they can affect Imperial Knights, and other super heavies, so I think it balances out overall.

TompiQ wrote:

 Deuce11 wrote:

 Nilok wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

19 Scarab Bases with RP in turn 1, with some cover and luck it's 29 charging in turn 2.
Turn 3 and 4 I usually try to buff the other 2 units of scarabs by 10 each and then send them on kamikazi missions to disrupt enemy objectives.
The Decurion Warriors pretty much just march across the battelfield shooting until something gets in their way.
The Immortals are usually parked on the 3rd obective marker on my side of the board

If you position them right, you can have the 10 extra bases go across no man's land for a turn 1 charge since they removed the restriction requiring new scarabs to be in cohesion with non-spawed scarabs.

Daisy chain them straight into the face of your opponent's midfield for a nice big claw filled hug, then give them 10 extra bases while they are in combat because they removed that restriction as well.

@ Nilok: er what? it is clear that the spawned scarabs must be placed within 6 inches of the spyder that spawned it AND only if there was a pre-existing scarab swarm within 6 inches of the spyder at the beginning of the movement phase.

You're actually allowed to spawn the bases any time during your movement phase, before or after your spyder(s) move.

adamsouza wrote:It's covered somewhere earlier in this very thread. WIth a half dozen spyders you can chain the scarabs most of the way across no mans land in the first turn. It's a gimmic. Most of the scarabs won't be able to reach, but it could be fun to see the look on an opponents face, or to claim a mid field objective

I thought i read the whole chain but maybe i gleaned over what you guys are talking about. Is there a way someone could link me right to the discussion?

Re. the viability of scarabs... I have played two games, one of which was against the hardest hitting hammer unit I have ever heard of. Even after a flawed game play on my part, Scarab Farm Crons still came out victorious. Scarabs kill armor and tie up dedicated CC. They are impenetrable when you have 35+ bases by mid-game regardless of RP. The trick is making sure you tie up the unit that can target the spyders. I use wraiths to do this. The combo is solid. The army takes patience, and is not an easy win button, but is hard as nails.

Start Spyders and Scarabs near edge of deployment zone Move 3 Spyders Up 6, spawn scarabs diaganolly ,to maintain squad coherence, 2" further into the depolyment zone each.
Move second swuad of spyders up, spawn scarabs 2" deeper each time, passing the Spyders. You now have Scarabs 12" across the 24" gap. Move the Squad 12" forward, and the lead scarab should be on the edge of the enemy deployment zone, turn 1, ready to charge.

If the enemy is on the edge of his deployment zone, you should be able to get a few bases of scarabs into assault.

I suggest running up the Spyders, so turn 2 they can move 6" forward and spawn more scarabs closer to the assault.

To be honest, I've never tried it. It's just something fun that is technically possible to pull off.

I'm not even certain how you move the rest of the scarabs up, once the first few are in assualt. Do they move 12" or are they restircted to using 3" follow up moves ?

 adamsouza wrote:
Start Spyders and Scarabs near edge of deployment zone Move 3 Spyders Up 6, spawn scarabs diaganolly ,to maintain squad coherence, 2" further into the depolyment zone each.
Move second swuad of spyders up, spawn scarabs 2" deeper each time, passing the Spyders. You now have Scarabs 12" across the 24" gap. Move the Squad 12" forward, and the lead scarab should be on the edge of the enemy deployment zone, turn 1, ready to charge.

If the enemy is on the edge of his deployment zone, you should be able to get a few bases of scarabs into assault.

I suggest running up the Spyders, so turn 2 they can move 6" forward and spawn more scarabs closer to the assault.

To be honest, I've never tried it. It's just something fun that is technically possible to pull off.

I'm not even certain how you move the rest of the scarabs up, once the first few are in assualt. Do they move 12" or are they restircted to using 3" follow up moves ?

If it's the same unit, it's just consolidation. Which means that funny 12" daisy chain across the battlefield is only going to get a couple bases even in combat.

Requizen wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Start Spyders and Scarabs near edge of deployment zone Move 3 Spyders Up 6, spawn scarabs diaganolly ,to maintain squad coherence, 2" further into the depolyment zone each.
Move second swuad of spyders up, spawn scarabs 2" deeper each time, passing the Spyders. You now have Scarabs 12" across the 24" gap. Move the Squad 12" forward, and the lead scarab should be on the edge of the enemy deployment zone, turn 1, ready to charge.

If the enemy is on the edge of his deployment zone, you should be able to get a few bases of scarabs into assault.

I suggest running up the Spyders, so turn 2 they can move 6" forward and spawn more scarabs closer to the assault.

To be honest, I've never tried it. It's just something fun that is technically possible to pull off.

I'm not even certain how you move the rest of the scarabs up, once the first few are in assualt. Do they move 12" or are they restircted to using 3" follow up moves ?

But it wont matter because the unit will still be locked; and the next turn you get another batch of scarabs...

If it's the same unit, it's just consolidation. Which means that funny 12" daisy chain across the battlefield is only going to get a couple bases even in combat.

It's closer than you think. First off the back models move the full amount of what you rolled for assault. So say you do get a charge off with 5 bases , great.

The other bases are still moving 12" plus the Charge move Plus 3" so you're not going to be that far away to get into combat.

Oh and the Spyders are going to add more and more.

Spyders really are just amazingly under costed for what they do. Even if you only spawn twice over the course of the game, you created 40 points of rippers. On a 50 point model.

I think that triple Canoptek harvest really builds itself. Or maybe just one Canoptek harvest inside a Spyder farm CAD. That being said, I too am theory-crafting as I'm still running old school wraithwing for the time being. Trying to make small tweaks in my list and seeing what I can do with it.

 luke1705 wrote:
Spyders really are just amazingly under costed for what they do. Even if you only spawn twice over the course of the game, you created 40 points of rippers. On a 50 point model.

I think that triple Canoptek harvest really builds itself. Or maybe just one Canoptek harvest inside a Spyder farm CAD. That being said, I too am theory-crafting as I'm still running old school wraithwing for the time being. Trying to make small tweaks in my list and seeing what I can do with it.

I run the single harvest in a Spyder farm CAD... and it's a beast. My local group calls is a 'moving anvil'. However I have only played against marines so far. I am a little worried about Eldar/DE. I will report once I get that match-up in.

I'm super fond of the 3 Canoptek Harvest MSU list. It's been excellent every time. It's the perfect number of Wraiths, their survivable. The Scarabs are super great as well and you avoid the negative of losing the wound 50% of the time.

I just gotta figure out a better Reclamation legion to go with them. I just take Tomb Blades right now as many as I can fit. I'm considering going with a Overlord w/ Veil and Lychguard though.

I think I'm coming around to the Decurion... I keep decrying the Troops tax, but honestly I think it's fine. My only standing issue is with the Tomb Blades... seeing as I still only have 3 and can't buy any online or in a store, I'll have to run them as minimum for the time being. But even then, they're extremely mobile and durable with 3+/Jink/4+++.

As my love of Necrons is mostly focused on how awesome Destroyer are, giving them the 4+ RP is my main goal of using the Decurion. Plus, it makes my Infiltrating Flayed Ones that much more durable. If I didn't want to take so much stuff other than the Reclamation Legion (Cult, Flayed Ones, Conclave), I wouldn't have so much issue running it!

Well I mean let me put it this way: I have been one of the most staunch advocates of Obsec > +1 RP, and I do stand by it still. That being said, Sean Nayden won the LVO with a grand total of one obsec unit in his army - a single deep-striking ripper squad. He completely owned all of the objectives for pretty much the entirety of game turns 2-5 and was able to effectively Flyrant/Mawloc/Lictor you off of the objectives. Very much quantity over quality and with the reserves manipulation, it did a spectacular job.

So if you are able to do something like this, then maybe obsec isn't the be all end all. But I would say, "don't just think you can get rid of obsec and win vs obsec because one guy did it. It took an experienced general and an exceptional list that relied on points efficiency denial"

Just take the bare minimum their still 20 models with 4+ , 4++ and 5 models with 3+ 4++.

That's insane for 345 points.

Although the idea of Decurion Warrior Immortal / Tomb Blade Spam keeps running around in my head.

Barge Lord (160)
20 Warriors (260)
10 Warrors w/ Ghost Ark (230)
10 Immortals (170)
10 Immortals (170)
10 Tomb Blades (220)
10 Tomb Blades (220)
10 Tomb Blades (220)

Comes to 1680 dunno what else to do with it though. 80 models with 4++

 Tyran wrote:
5TP is 20 attacks, 10 hits and 1.6 hull points.

It would be even less as the Dread is going to kill 1 or 2 guys before the TP get to swing, so I don't see odds in the TP's favor.

The Dread might kill 2, 3 at the most, and the TPs will ultimately win the combat.

Your assumptions don't match the reality.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if the TPs are coming from the formation and the Dread is marked, it's even more lopsided.

4 Dread CC attacks kill .83 [4(1÷2)(5÷6)(1÷2)] to 1.11 [ 4(1÷2)(5÷6)(2÷3) ] TPs/turn, depending on what RP the TPs are getting. He needs to kill 5.

The TPs can easily take off 2 HPs on the charge
(.56 from Pistols, 1.33 from CC, assuming Dread kills one). So. Statistically speaking, the Dread should have about 1 HP to go, and the TPs should be 4 strong, at the end of one round.

Obviously, those numbers double if they are in the formation and the Dread is marked. In other words, he dies in one round.

Also, this ignores the fact the TPs will likely have Pens, due to rending, which will further limit the Dreads ability.

If their part of a Decurion they'll still get a 5+ save versus the Dreadnoughts attacks as well I don't think that's counted in there.

10 will Clown a Dreadnought.