Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

whip coils are relevant when the opponent has str D, and can remove two or three wraiths a turn before stomps, which is in the context of how to deal with a wraithknight. They also matter against int 4 units that can hurt them (wulfen, berserkers, most bike stars). Outside of that Wraiths already have a better way of dealing with TEQ rending and a metric ton of attacks. If I could get both, I'd think about it, but until then Int is the undisputed of melee stats.

Wulfen are I5.

I literally LOL'd at the fact Berserker Marines were listed as a unit capable of hurting Wraiths.

 Grimgold wrote:
whip coils are relevant when the opponent has str D, and can remove two or three wraiths a turn before stomps, which is in the context of how to deal with a wraithknight. They also matter against int 4 units that can hurt them (wulfen, berserkers, most bike stars). Outside of that Wraiths already have a better way of dealing with TEQ rending and a metric ton of attacks. If I could get both, I'd think about it, but until then Int is the undisputed of melee stats.

Beamers attack at Initiative 11.

Also, not sure how you are doing your math but 4 attacks from a D weapon only translates to 0.63 dead Wraiths on average (due to 50% attacks hitting, D chart only auto-killing on a 6 and flubbing on a 1, and 3++ save active against the rest of the D chart which is only threatening lethal amount of wounds 66% of the time), so killing 2 Wraiths on turn 1 is not very likely at all.


Even if you disagree with me on Beamers, I hope you are beginning to see the waste of running whipcoils.

col_impact wrote:

sieGermans wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Destroyer Lord is too expensive to keep naked, and it isn't like it costs a lot of points to give him desirable upgrades.

I tried a weird thing last night:

Gave the destroyer lord the usual melee upgrades (warscythe, nightmare shroud, sempiternal weave) and put him in DS reserve with the Deathmarks. Reading Ethereal Interception, it seems the RAW allow the whole unit to "counter-Deep Strike" if an enemy arrives via DS, etc.... including the DLord? Then you get a minimal jet pack move (keeping coherency) during assault step.

Then on your turn during movement, you can split him off and go melee hunting. Seem right?

Nope. The DLord doesn't get Ethereal Interception just from being attached to a unit of Deathmarks

The BRB FAQ clarified that the abilities of unit special rules do not confer to attached ICs, unless there is specific wording that would confer the ability, e.g. "a unit that contains at least one model with [Ethereal Interception]."

Ah, gotcha. Thanks!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You'd need to do a Chaos one.

Indeed, one needs a Chaos variant which amounts to a Warden.
Any experience with an IK in a Necron army?

Oberron wrote:

 necr0n wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 necr0n wrote:
I struggle to understand the point about the Deathmarks, however. How would 40 sniper shots bring down a Gargantuan Creatuce that did not deepstrike that turn?( I mean, I don't see a Wraithknight ever wanting to deepstrike) They would cause 2 wounds max, the way I see it.

... you do know what makes Deathmarks so special, right?

I was under the impression, they were not allowed the 2+ rule because of the Gargantuan Creature rule.

They get the 2+ to wound when the deathmarks deepstrike. The gargantuan creature rule applies to the sniper rule. Here is the average damage to a wraith knight with a unit of 10 deathmarks+ D.lord in the group (assuming rapid fire range).

On average
20 shots hitting on 3+ re-rolling 1s
2/3 of 20 is 13.2 with 6.8 misses 3.4 being 1s with re-roll is 2.24 more hits after re-roll
15.44 hits wounding on 2+ with re-roll 1s
5/6 of 15.44 is 12.8152 with 2.62 misses 1.31 being 1s with re-roll is 1.09 more wounds after re-roll.
14.13 wounds with 1/6 of them being ap 2 is 2.26 that go through armor.
Wraithknights have a 3+ armor save so 2/3 of 11.87 is 7.83, 4.04 wounds get through armor + 2.26 = 6.3 unsaved wounds
FNP turns 6.3 into 4.22 wounds
Staff of light might get an extra wound
This won't kill it on average but it is very close to bringing it down in a single round for less points.

I find it amusing that you think a large unit with no scatter reduction can be relied on. Expecting a 10 man squad with a big DLord base to land in rapid fire range any amount of time is an exercise in frustration, in my experience.

Draco765 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
How about to integrate an Imperial Knight in a Necron army?
Any experience? If so, what kind of Knight? I'd prefer the Crusader, the only one who comes with two heavy weapons.

Staying bound you would use a Renegade Knight Forsworn Detachment.

My ideal one would be equipped as follows:

Carapace: Twin Linked Icarus Autocannon
Right arm: Avenger Gatling Cannon/Heavy Flamer
Left arm: Rapid-fire Battle cannon/Heavy stubber
Chest: Heavy Stubber

Keep him back and shooting. Anything gets close you can mess around with melee/stomps, but shooting is what this one does best.

skoffs wrote:

Draco765 wrote:
Keep him back and shooting. Anything gets close you can mess around with melee/stomps, but shooting is what this one does best.

But would his shooting be more effective than our shooting for similar price?

wuestenfux wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You'd need to do a Chaos one.

Indeed, one needs a Chaos variant which amounts to a Warden.
Any experience with an IK in a Necron army?

This is all pretty true, though I would urge oduble Avenger Gatling Cannons instead of the RFBC. Large Blast AP3 seems good but numerically is worse on most targets, and without ITC rulings is useless against Invis.

The Knight is pretty cool and can put out serious damage, but WILL get focused down and killed first. Stormsurge D Missiles, Eldar D weapons, drop pod meltas, T1 charge shenanigans, etc. In a tournament setting, I think I've had mine survive past Turn 3 maybe once or twice, and only in games that I would have won anyway. It's a big ol bullseye. Destroyers bring a similar amount of AP3 shooting and are more durable against most types of shooting.

But, against an opponent who can't deal with AV13, it's basically invincible, and it's actually useful in combat, so you get a tradeoff.

Grimgold wrote:whip coils are relevant when the opponent has str D, and can remove two or three wraiths a turn before stomps, which is in the context of how to deal with a wraithknight. They also matter against int 4 units that can hurt them (wulfen, berserkers, most bike stars). Outside of that Wraiths already have a better way of dealing with TEQ rending and a metric ton of attacks. If I could get both, I'd think about it, but until then Int is the undisputed of melee stats.

Remember that the Necron FAQ says that even with Whip Coils, you go at I1 when charging through cover. So... a lot of the time.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:I literally LOL'd at the fact Berserker Marines were listed as a unit capable of hurting Wraiths.

Khorne berserkers have a few issues, no AP, overcost, but if they get the charge, it's 4 attacks at str 5 per berserker (except for the champion who has 5 attacks at str 5), hitting on threes, wounding on fours. 41 attacks on a charge 14 wounds, 4 wounds make it thru and we have 2 dead wraiths. So yes they are a threat, and I mention them because I've had my wraiths roflstomped by them. Add in traitors hate for things like red rain and turn one charges, and you can see that while not a great unit berserkers can get work done even against an unarguably better unit like wraiths.

col_impact wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
whip coils are relevant when the opponent has str D, and can remove two or three wraiths a turn before stomps, which is in the context of how to deal with a wraithknight. They also matter against int 4 units that can hurt them (wulfen, berserkers, most bike stars). Outside of that Wraiths already have a better way of dealing with TEQ rending and a metric ton of attacks. If I could get both, I'd think about it, but until then Int is the undisputed of melee stats.

Beamers attack at Initiative 11.

Also, not sure how you are doing your math but 4 attacks from a D weapon only translates to 0.63 dead Wraiths on average (due to 50% attacks hitting, D chart only auto-killing on a 6 and flubbing on a 1, and 3++ save active against the rest of the D chart which is only threatening lethal amount of wounds 66% of the time), so killing 2 Wraiths on turn 1 is not very likely at all.


Even if you disagree with me on Beamers, I hope you are beginning to see the waste of running whipcoils.

If everything was turn one your math might check out, but the flaw in your thinking is that you only get to shoot your beamers once and then you are in CC, where as whip coils affect every round of combat. Lets just walk thru this:

1st round, beamer wraiths beam have a 63% chance of getting two wounds thru, so it's pretty far from reliable, but for the sake of argument we'll say they get it. they then charge getting four attacks apiece, hitting on fours wounding on sixes. The wraith knight drops the D and gets a wraith (also 63%), so far up two wound down 4 attacks. The wraiths hit back, hitting on fours wounding on sixes, and get 1.3 wounds thru. Stomps come he gets another wraith. Down to four.

2nd round, Wraith knight gets another at I5 (He gets 2 out of 3 so he'll miss his third), so we are now down 7 attacks up two wounds compared to whip coil wraiths, 9 attacks back getting one wound thru (.78 actually), assuming he can only stomp two models and gets an average of two stomps, stomp only has a slightly better than 50-50 of removing a model a turn, but in addition it gets a wound a round thru, so on round three he stomp the life out of two wraiths, but this round he gets none with stomps.

3rd round, wraith knight whiffs, the wraiths attack getting one more wound, stomps get two wraiths.

4th round, wraith knight kills another another at I5, so we are now down ten attacks up 2 wounds, the single remaining wraith can't get a wound thru, and he'll survive stomp, just to die at the next I5 pass, leaving the final score down 13 attacks up two wounds. so how does this compare to whipcoils 13 attacks is 1.04 wounds, so in a best case scenario for the beamer it ends up 1 wound ahead for 42 points. If you are fighting something like wulfen, berserkers, bikestars (things your normal attacks work well against) you could end up a dozen wounds behind the curve fairly easily by taking the beamer over whipcoils, and you get to pay out the nose for the privilege of comparatively sucking.

Initiative is the king of melee stats, internalize that, grok it, roll it around in your noggin, because that understanding will help you win fights.

This is all pretty true, though I would urge oduble Avenger Gatling Cannons instead of the RFBC. Large Blast AP3 seems good but numerically is worse on most targets, and without ITC rulings is useless against Invis.

The Knight is pretty cool and can put out serious damage, but WILL get focused down and killed first. Stormsurge D Missiles, Eldar D weapons, drop pod meltas, T1 charge shenanigans, etc. In a tournament setting, I think I've had mine survive past Turn 3 maybe once or twice, and only in games that I would have won anyway. It's a big ol bullseye. Destroyers bring a similar amount of AP3 shooting and are more durable against most types of shooting.

But, against an opponent who can't deal with AV13, it's basically invincible, and it's actually useful in combat, so you get a tradeoff.

Indeed, an IK is a big target for the enemy as he will fear him and his ability to do serious damage.
But I guess you're right about the Destroyers. They bring more bang for the bucks to bear.

 Grimgold wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:I literally LOL'd at the fact Berserker Marines were listed as a unit capable of hurting Wraiths.

Khorne berserkers have a few issues, no AP, overcost, but if they get the charge, it's 4 attacks at str 5 per berserker (except for the champion who has 5 attacks at str 5), hitting on threes, wounding on fours. 41 attacks on a charge 14 wounds, 4 wounds make it thru and we have 2 dead wraiths. So yes they are a threat, and I mention them because I've had my wraiths roflstomped by them. Add in traitors hate for things like red rain and turn one charges, and you can see that while not a great unit berserkers can get work done even against an unarguably better unit like wraiths.

col_impact wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
whip coils are relevant when the opponent has str D, and can remove two or three wraiths a turn before stomps, which is in the context of how to deal with a wraithknight. They also matter against int 4 units that can hurt them (wulfen, berserkers, most bike stars). Outside of that Wraiths already have a better way of dealing with TEQ rending and a metric ton of attacks. If I could get both, I'd think about it, but until then Int is the undisputed of melee stats.

Beamers attack at Initiative 11.

Also, not sure how you are doing your math but 4 attacks from a D weapon only translates to 0.63 dead Wraiths on average (due to 50% attacks hitting, D chart only auto-killing on a 6 and flubbing on a 1, and 3++ save active against the rest of the D chart which is only threatening lethal amount of wounds 66% of the time), so killing 2 Wraiths on turn 1 is not very likely at all.


Even if you disagree with me on Beamers, I hope you are beginning to see the waste of running whipcoils.

If everything was turn one your math might check out, but the flaw in your thinking is that you only get to shoot your beamers once and then you are in CC, where as whip coils affect every round of combat. Lets just walk thru this:

1st round, beamer wraiths beam have a 63% chance of getting two wounds thru, so it's pretty far from reliable, but for the sake of argument we'll say they get it. they then charge getting four attacks apiece, hitting on fours wounding on sixes. The wraith knight drops the D and gets a wraith (also 63%), so far up two wound down 4 attacks. The wraiths hit back, hitting on fours wounding on sixes, and get 1.3 wounds thru. Stomps come he gets another wraith. Down to four.

2nd round, Wraith knight gets another at I5 (He gets 2 out of 3 so he'll miss his third), so we are now down 7 attacks up two wounds compared to whip coil wraiths, 9 attacks back getting one wound thru (.78 actually), assuming he can only stomp two models and gets an average of two stomps, stomp only has a slightly better than 50-50 of removing a model a turn, but in addition it gets a wound a round thru, so on round three he stomp the life out of two wraiths, but this round he gets none with stomps.

3rd round, wraith knight whiffs, the wraiths attack getting one more wound, stomps get two wraiths.

4th round, wraith knight kills another another at I5, so we are now down ten attacks up 2 wounds, the single remaining wraith can't get a wound thru, and he'll survive stomp, just to die at the next I5 pass, leaving the final score down 13 attacks up two wounds. so how does this compare to whipcoils 13 attacks is 1.04 wounds, so in a best case scenario for the beamer it ends up 1 wound ahead for 42 points. If you are fighting something like wulfen, berserkers, bikestars (things your normal attacks work well against) you could end up a dozen wounds behind the curve fairly easily by taking the beamer over whipcoils, and you get to pay out the nose for the privilege of comparatively sucking.

Initiative is the king of melee stats, internalize that, grok it, roll it around in your noggin, because that understanding will help you win fights.

You're not serious are you?
Berserker Marines will never get the charge on Wraiths unless you are braindead. I'm pretty sure you didn't include things like the RP probably being active in that calculation.

Berserker Marines were, if anything, made worse with the TL supplement because regular Marines will do the same job for a much lower cost.

 Grimgold wrote:


If everything was turn one your math might check out, but the flaw in your thinking is that you only get to shoot your beamers once and then you are in CC, where as whip coils affect every round of combat. Lets just walk thru this:

1st round, beamer wraiths beam have a 63% chance of getting two wounds thru, so it's pretty far from reliable, but for the sake of argument we'll say they get it. they then charge getting four attacks apiece, hitting on fours wounding on sixes. The wraith knight drops the D and gets a wraith (also 63%), so far up two wound down 4 attacks. The wraiths hit back, hitting on fours wounding on sixes, and get 1.3 wounds thru. Stomps come he gets another wraith. Down to four.

2nd round, Wraith knight gets another at I5 (He gets 2 out of 3 so he'll miss his third), so we are now down 7 attacks up two wounds compared to whip coil wraiths, 9 attacks back getting one wound thru (.78 actually), assuming he can only stomp two models and gets an average of two stomps, stomp only has a slightly better than 50-50 of removing a model a turn, but in addition it gets a wound a round thru, so on round three he stomp the life out of two wraiths, but this round he gets none with stomps.

3rd round, wraith knight whiffs, the wraiths attack getting one more wound, stomps get two wraiths.

4th round, wraith knight kills another another at I5, so we are now down ten attacks up 2 wounds, the single remaining wraith can't get a wound thru, and he'll survive stomp, just to die at the next I5 pass, leaving the final score down 13 attacks up two wounds. so how does this compare to whipcoils 13 attacks is 1.04 wounds, so in a best case scenario for the beamer it ends up 1 wound ahead for 42 points. If you are fighting something like wulfen, berserkers, bikestars (things your normal attacks work well against) you could end up a dozen wounds behind the curve fairly easily by taking the beamer over whipcoils, and you get to pay out the nose for the privilege of comparatively sucking.

Initiative is the king of melee stats, internalize that, grok it, roll it around in your noggin, because that understanding will help you win fights.

First, your math is wrong.

The D weapon is removing 0.63 Wraiths on average per turn and to resolve statistically you accumulate that number and count a kill or a wound upon crossing the threshold of a whole number.

Consider the example of a coin toss (0.50) for heads. Toss 1 (0.50) = 0 heads. Toss 2 (1.0) = 1 head total. Toss 3 (1.5) = 1 head total. Toss 4 (2) = 2 heads total. Etc.

So phase 1 [0.63] = 0 Wraiths. Phase 2 [1.26] = 1 Wraith total killed. Phase 3 [1.89] = 1 Wraith total killed. Phase 4 [2.52] = 2 Wraiths total killed. Phase 5 [3.15] = 3 Wraiths total killed. Etcetera.



Stomps fair a little better. Every 3 turns the Stomps are putting out 2 auto-kills and 0.89 wounds after 3++ and 4+++ or 1.78 wounds if the Spyder has been killed.


Second, I wasn't advocating putting Beamers on Wraiths tasked with tarpitting, but rather on Wraiths acting as Wraithstars.

The longer a combat drags on the more the initial boost of damage from the Beamers is diluted. Conversely, a combat that quickly resolves in your favor opens up more volleys of the Beamers.

So we really need to factor in Orikan (re-roll 1s on saves), Zandrekh (Zealot), a Destroyer Lord (PE, WS, 4++, Veil), an OLord (VR, 4++), and a Lord (Solar Staff).

Orikan means that only Destroyer or Stomp results of 6 will be effective. Zealot means the first assault phase will pack a punch. PE boosts that initial volley from Beamers and the 2 staves. WS and VR also speed up the demise of the WK.


Shooting Phase
Beamers = 4.666 hits = 0.8 x 2 = 1.6 wounds = 1.07 unsaved wounds (circumvents FNP)
Staves =2.33 hits+ 2.92 = 5.25 hits = 0.9 wounds = 0.4 unsaved wounds

Assault Phase 1 (Zealot active)

VR = 3.55 hits = 2.96 Wounds = 1.32 unsaved wounds
WS = 3 hits = 1 wound = 0.44 unsaved wounds
Wraiths = 24 attacks = 18 hits = 3.5 wounds = 1.56 unsaved wounds (or 1.3 if Wraith is killed I5)
Lord = 1.75 hits = 0.3 wounds = 0.07 unsaved wounds
Zandrekh = 3.55 hits = 0.59 wounds = 0.13 unsaved wounds

Result: Phase 1 = 5 wounds on WK (or 4.74 if Wraith dies on I5)

[If your Destroyers have softened up the WK by a couple of wounds you are looking at 1 dead WK before Stomps.]


Assault Phase 2 Death of WK is imminent and happens before Stomps.

Next Necron turn the Wraithstar shoots at and assaults the next biggest threat.

I'm not sure whats stuck in your craw about this, but Khorne berserkers are perfectly capable of getting the drop on wraiths. Since wraiths are up front, it's not bad positioning that puts them at risk, it's their job to intercept incoming melee units. Beyond that, if you got first turn what are you going to do hold your wraiths back for fear they might get charged? There is also the chance you failed a charge, or you wiped out the unit you were fighting on your turn, or you were stuck in combat with a different unit altogether, there are lots of ways a savvy chaos player can get the drop on wraiths. The reason I left out formations benefits out is because khorne berserkers gain so much more from the formations in traitor's hate than wraiths do from a harvest, +3" to any charge, fleet, red rain (which is get two assault phases in one turn), Adamantium will (not so useful against us but not useless), reroll failed charges, get 2d6" inch move after deployment but before movement. There are also warlord traits that allow charges in your opponent's turn, rolling 3d6 and choosing the best two for charge range, they get a lot of special rules. I don't know if they are worth their points, but they are much improved compared to how they were prior to traitors hate. Wraiths are good units, but they are far from invincible, and when you catch up to the current meta you'll realize that they are perfectly capable of hurting wraiths.

Plus, you know, if the Wraiths are already in combat with something else and the Berserkers just wander over to join in. That is a very likely scenario and would definitely not go well for the Wraiths.

 Grimgold wrote:
I'm not sure whats stuck in your craw about this, but Khorne berserkers are perfectly capable of getting the drop on wraiths. Since wraiths are up front, it's not bad positioning that puts them at risk, it's their job to intercept incoming melee units. Beyond that, if you got first turn what are you going to do hold your wraiths back for fear they might get charged? There is also the chance you failed a charge, or you wiped out the unit you were fighting on your turn, or you were stuck in combat with a different unit altogether, there are lots of ways a savvy chaos player can get the drop on wraiths. The reason I left out formations benefits out is because khorne berserkers gain so much more from the formations in traitor's hate than wraiths do from a harvest, +3" to any charge, fleet, red rain (which is get two assault phases in one turn), Adamantium will (not so useful against us but not useless), reroll failed charges, get 2d6" inch move after deployment but before movement. There are also warlord traits that allow charges in your opponent's turn, rolling 3d6 and choosing the best two for charge range, they get a lot of special rules. I don't know if they are worth their points, but they are much improved compared to how they were prior to traitors hate. Wraiths are good units, but they are far from invincible, and when you catch up to the current meta you'll realize that they are perfectly capable of hurting wraiths.

You can talk to me and everyone else in the CSM tactic thread as to why Berserker Marines are useless. The only thing they have over regular marines is WS5 and the option to buy a Chainaxe. That's literally it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skoffs wrote:
Plus, you know, if the Wraiths are already in combat with something else and the Berserkers just wander over to join in. That is a very likely scenario and would definitely not go well for the Wraiths.

Anything can charge them at that point. That doesn't make Berserker Marines dangerous.

col_impact wrote:


First, your math is wrong.

The D weapon is removing 0.63 Wraiths on average per turn and to resolve statistically you accumulate that number and count a kill or a wound upon crossing the threshold of a whole number.

Consider the example of a coin toss (0.50) for heads. Toss 1 (0.50) = 0 heads. Toss 2 (1.0) = 1 head total. Toss 3 (1.5) = 1 head total. Toss 4 (2) = 2 heads total. Etc.

So phase 1 [0.63] = 0 Wraiths. Phase 2 [1.26] = 1 Wraith total killed. Phase 3 [1.89] = 1 Wraith total killed. Phase 4 [2.52] = 2 Wraiths total killed. Phase 5 [3.15] = 3 Wraiths total killed. Etcetera.



Stomps fair a little better. Every 3 turns the Stomps are putting out 2 auto-kills and 0.89 wounds after 3++ and 4+++ or 1.78 wounds if the Spyder has been killed.


Second, I wasn't advocating putting Beamers on Wraiths tasked with tarpitting, but rather on Wraiths acting as Wraithstars.

The longer a combat drags on the more the initial boost of damage from the Beamers is diluted. Conversely, a combat that quickly resolves in your favor opens up more volleys of the Beamers.

So we really need to factor in Orikan (re-roll 1s on saves), Zandrekh (Zealot), a Destroyer Lord (PE, WS, 4++, Veil), an OLord (VR, 4++), and a Lord (Solar Staff).

Orikan means that only Destroyer or Stomp results of 6 will be effective. Zealot means the first assault phase will pack a punch. PE boosts that initial volley from Beamers and the 2 staves. WS and VR also speed up the demise of the WK.


Shooting Phase
Beamers = 4.666 hits = 0.8 x 2 = 1.6 wounds = 1.07 unsaved wounds (circumvents FNP)
Staves =2.33 hits+ 2.92 = 5.25 hits = 0.9 wounds = 0.4 unsaved wounds

Assault Phase 1 (Zealot active)

VR = 3.55 hits = 2.96 Wounds = 1.32 unsaved wounds
WS = 3 hits = 1 wound = 0.44 unsaved wounds
Wraiths = 24 attacks = 18 hits = 3.5 wounds = 1.56 unsaved wounds (or 1.3 if Wraith is killed I5)
Lord = 1.75 hits = 0.3 wounds = 0.07 unsaved wounds
Zandrekh = 3.55 hits = 0.59 wounds = 0.13 unsaved wounds

Result: Phase 1 = 5 wounds on WK (or 4.74 if Wraith dies on I5)

[If your Destroyers have softened up the WK by a couple of wounds you are looking at 1 dead WK before Stomps.]


Assault Phase 2 Death of WK is imminent and happens before Stomps.

Next Necron turn the Wraithstar shoots at and assaults the next biggest threat.

Can you find me a single battle report where wraiths killed a wraith knight in two turns, hell where a wraithstar kitted out as you suggested killed a wraith knight in two turns? If we are adding HQ, one farseer and your plan falls apart, we have no counter to invis, so you could add an entire army to that CC and the results would still be an eldar win. You are also talking about throwing 700+ points at a 295 point target, which is a silly way to try and make a point. You should isolate variables to see which ones matter, not throw everything and the kitchen sink at the problem until you get the outcome you want and then claim it was the variable you want it to be.

Here is the crux of my argument, striking simo or ahead of your target gets you more attacks/and or less attack back, because people killed prior to their initiative phase don't make CC attacks (at least not usually). This vastly outweighs the benefit provided by the beamer for combats against opponents that have a good chance of killing wraiths. In the khorne berserker example, the wraiths with whip coils will take about 12 less attacks than a unit armed with beamers and get three more attacks in return. With Wulfen who are I5, you are still going to lose wraiths but at least those wraiths got to attack back before they die. This isn't rocket science, and if you disagree with me on the point, then it's super easy to prove me wrong, just show me a match up against a good CC unit of approximately equal cost where the beamers function better. I've shown you one, the wraithknight, but that's an edge case because wraiths are usually wounding opponents much easier than that. Outside of that, maybe units that strike at initiative 1 won't care if you have whipcoils (except if they have concussive then having whip coils matters immensely, since swift strike and concussive cancel out allowing wraiths to hit at their base initiative which is 2). For the vast majority of fights, whip coils are the better selection.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You can talk to me and everyone else in the CSM tactic thread as to why Berserker Marines are useless. The only thing they have over regular marines is WS5 and the option to buy a Chainaxe. That's literally it.

I'm not terribly interested in joining the pity party you guys are rocking in that thread, and you haven't brought one quantifiable fact forward that shows I'm wrong. Khorne berserkers are probably not worth their points (it's iffy with all of the benefits from traitors hate) but they can be dangerous on the charge, due to number and quality of attacks. I'm not saying KBs are better than wraiths, wraiths are under cost and KBs are not, which more or less settles the matter. What I am saying is that KBs are dangerous on the charge to wraiths, and that danger is lessened by having whip coils. Are either parts of that false?

 Grimgold wrote:

col_impact wrote:


First, your math is wrong.

The D weapon is removing 0.63 Wraiths on average per turn and to resolve statistically you accumulate that number and count a kill or a wound upon crossing the threshold of a whole number.

Consider the example of a coin toss (0.50) for heads. Toss 1 (0.50) = 0 heads. Toss 2 (1.0) = 1 head total. Toss 3 (1.5) = 1 head total. Toss 4 (2) = 2 heads total. Etc.

So phase 1 [0.63] = 0 Wraiths. Phase 2 [1.26] = 1 Wraith total killed. Phase 3 [1.89] = 1 Wraith total killed. Phase 4 [2.52] = 2 Wraiths total killed. Phase 5 [3.15] = 3 Wraiths total killed. Etcetera.



Stomps fair a little better. Every 3 turns the Stomps are putting out 2 auto-kills and 0.89 wounds after 3++ and 4+++ or 1.78 wounds if the Spyder has been killed.


Second, I wasn't advocating putting Beamers on Wraiths tasked with tarpitting, but rather on Wraiths acting as Wraithstars.

The longer a combat drags on the more the initial boost of damage from the Beamers is diluted. Conversely, a combat that quickly resolves in your favor opens up more volleys of the Beamers.

So we really need to factor in Orikan (re-roll 1s on saves), Zandrekh (Zealot), a Destroyer Lord (PE, WS, 4++, Veil), an OLord (VR, 4++), and a Lord (Solar Staff).

Orikan means that only Destroyer or Stomp results of 6 will be effective. Zealot means the first assault phase will pack a punch. PE boosts that initial volley from Beamers and the 2 staves. WS and VR also speed up the demise of the WK.


Shooting Phase
Beamers = 4.666 hits = 0.8 x 2 = 1.6 wounds = 1.07 unsaved wounds (circumvents FNP)
Staves =2.33 hits+ 2.92 = 5.25 hits = 0.9 wounds = 0.4 unsaved wounds

Assault Phase 1 (Zealot active)

VR = 3.55 hits = 2.96 Wounds = 1.32 unsaved wounds
WS = 3 hits = 1 wound = 0.44 unsaved wounds
Wraiths = 24 attacks = 18 hits = 3.5 wounds = 1.56 unsaved wounds (or 1.3 if Wraith is killed I5)
Lord = 1.75 hits = 0.3 wounds = 0.07 unsaved wounds
Zandrekh = 3.55 hits = 0.59 wounds = 0.13 unsaved wounds

Result: Phase 1 = 5 wounds on WK (or 4.74 if Wraith dies on I5)

[If your Destroyers have softened up the WK by a couple of wounds you are looking at 1 dead WK before Stomps.]


Assault Phase 2 Death of WK is imminent and happens before Stomps.

Next Necron turn the Wraithstar shoots at and assaults the next biggest threat.

Can you find me a single battle report where wraiths killed a wraith knight in two turns, hell where a wraithstar kitted out as you suggested killed a wraith knight in two turns? If we are adding HQ, one farseer and your plan falls apart, we have no counter to invis, so you could add an entire army to that CC and the results would still be an eldar win. You are also talking about throwing 700+ points at a 295 point target, which is a silly way to try and make a point. You should isolate variables to see which ones matter, not throw everything and the kitchen sink at the problem until you get the outcome you want and then claim it was the variable you want it to be.

Here is the crux of my argument, striking simo or ahead of your target gets you more attacks/and or less attack back, because people killed prior to their initiative phase don't make CC attacks (at least not usually). This vastly outweighs the benefit provided by the beamer for combats against opponents that have a good chance of killing wraiths. In the khorne berserker example, the wraiths with whip coils will take about 12 less attacks than a unit armed with beamers and get three more attacks in return. With Wulfen who are I5, you are still going to lose wraiths but at least those wraiths got to attack back before they die. This isn't rocket science, and if you disagree with me on the point, then it's super easy to prove me wrong, just show me a match up against a good CC unit of approximately equal cost where the beamers function better. I've shown you one, the wraithknight, but that's an edge case because wraiths are usually wounding opponents much easier than that. Outside of that, maybe units that strike at initiative 1 won't care if you have whipcoils (except if they have concussive then having whip coils matters immensely, since swift strike and concussive cancel out allowing wraiths to hit at their base initiative which is 2). For the vast majority of fights, whip coils are the better selection.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You can talk to me and everyone else in the CSM tactic thread as to why Berserker Marines are useless. The only thing they have over regular marines is WS5 and the option to buy a Chainaxe. That's literally it.

I'm not terribly interested in joining the pity party you guys are rocking in that thread, and you haven't brought one quantifiable fact forward that shows I'm wrong. Khorne berserkers are probably not worth their points (it's iffy with all of the benefits from traitors hate) but they can be dangerous on the charge, due to number and quality of attacks. I'm not saying KBs are better than wraiths, wraiths are under cost and KBs are not, which more or less settles the matter. What I am saying is that KBs are dangerous on the charge to wraiths, and that danger is lessened by having whip coils. Are either parts of that false?

It isn't a pity party; we are trying to use the tools that the new supplement has given us, and many will agree Berserker Marines are trash. From the supplement, all they get is AW and then gimmicky formations for them. For comparison:
10 Berserker Marines is 200 points
10 MoK Marines with extra CCW's and two Melta Guns is 198 points
The only thing they have is WS5 and the option to buy a Chainaxe. Any other advantage they use to have (Furious Charge) is standard for World Eater Marines.

So are you right in that Whip Coils can lessen danger. However, you are wrong in them being dangerous if they charge. It takes a minimum of 18 attacks average to inflict 2 wounds. That takes more points in Berserker Marines than Wraiths. So please quit touting them as though they were a danger because they aren't.

 Grimgold wrote:


Can you find me a single battle report where wraiths killed a wraith knight in two turns, hell where a wraithstar kitted out as you suggested killed a wraith knight in two turns? If we are adding HQ, one farseer and your plan falls apart, we have no counter to invis, so you could add an entire army to that CC and the results would still be an eldar win. You are also talking about throwing 700+ points at a 295 point target, which is a silly way to try and make a point. You should isolate variables to see which ones matter, not throw everything and the kitchen sink at the problem until you get the outcome you want and then claim it was the variable you want it to be.

Here is the crux of my argument, striking simo or ahead of your target gets you more attacks/and or less attack back, because people killed prior to their initiative phase don't make CC attacks (at least not usually). This vastly outweighs the benefit provided by the beamer for combats against opponents that have a good chance of killing wraiths. In the khorne berserker example, the wraiths with whip coils will take about 12 less attacks than a unit armed with beamers and get three more attacks in return. With Wulfen who are I5, you are still going to lose wraiths but at least those wraiths got to attack back before they die. This isn't rocket science, and if you disagree with me on the point, then it's super easy to prove me wrong, just show me a match up against a good CC unit of approximately equal cost where the beamers function better. I've shown you one, the wraithknight, but that's an edge case because wraiths are usually wounding opponents much easier than that. Outside of that, maybe units that strike at initiative 1 won't care if you have whipcoils (except if they have concussive then having whip coils matters immensely, since swift strike and concussive cancel out allowing wraiths to hit at their base initiative which is 2). For the vast majority of fights, whip coils are the better selection.

I understand what you are saying. I think you are failing to understand that there are two top Necron lists in the ITC right now: Wraithstar and Pylonstar.

My example of Wraithstar is entirely on point for competitive play. Let's stick to examples that are relevant for competitive play.

Beamers have a definite place in a Wraithstar list since you are adding a buff to a buffed up unit that is designed to mulch through targets. Wraithstar lists are my favorite lists to run and they mulch through WKs and Knights because they are designed to do just that. Beamers are a 60 point upgrade that frontloads a chunk of damage onto the enemy unit which is exactly what you want to do with a Wraithstar list. A Wraithstar isn't a tarpit. You want to break the enemy unit in two assault phases or less. You have a Veil to pop out of a combat that is grinding on. And you don' want a combat with a Stomper to grind on since you have ICs in the Wraithstar.

Invisibility isn't that game-wrecking in ITC since you are still hitting on 5+ in combat. If you can, you take out the Farseer first and go after the targets that aren't invisible before engaging the WK. Eldar is the top list in the ITC so you need to play tight and play the 'tricks' in your Wraithstar to maximum advantage.

The only list that gives my Wraithstar list serious problems is Dogstar and only if that list does really well for itself while rolling Psychic powers. Even so I can often grind out wins against Dogstar even when it gets all the psychic goods since a Wraithstar can take 4 solid turns for it chomp through. Meanwhile the rest of my list has been rocketing ahead on the Secondary and can often block the Dogstar from winning even though it has late game superior numbers.

Whether or not I equip my Wraithstar with Beamers is entirely a meta choice. If I expect a field of juicy targets for the AP2 and/or the ID then I run it. If I don't, I run more TBs.

Ok Pop quiz, how many other 200 point units can kill two wraiths on a charge? My wager paid for in affirmations is less than 5. Also you are way underselling WS 5; for example against WS 4 (which is almost everyone they will fight) that means a 24% increase in the number of hits. When you are slinging 41 attacks it's about 7 extra hits. They are quantifiably gak after the charge, but on the charge they are a top ten melee threat.

So Math says you are wrong, could we please stop this senseless bickering. I proved I was right like two post ago, I'm not even sure why we are still doing this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok so blood of kittens time,

5th at LVO
No pylons, wraith star for sure, whipcoils.

7th overall at LVO
No wraiths or pylons

13th at adepticon
Lychstar, no pylons or wraiths

1st wetcoast
Whip coils no pylons

1st overall dbm brawl
Hey we found pylons finally, but it's more of a chaos zombie list with pylons as fire support. Lychguard no wraiths.

Please believe me when I say that I am data obsessed, it's my job, and it's my hobby. I am very familiar with the current necron meta, and you are wrong, Demonstrably so.

"Oh, you think math is your ally. But you merely adopted the the min maxing; I was born in it, moulded by it. I didn't see a fluffy list until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but BLINDING! The math betrays you, because they belong to me!" or something like that.

Requizen wrote:

Oberron wrote:

 necr0n wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 necr0n wrote:
I struggle to understand the point about the Deathmarks, however. How would 40 sniper shots bring down a Gargantuan Creatuce that did not deepstrike that turn?( I mean, I don't see a Wraithknight ever wanting to deepstrike) They would cause 2 wounds max, the way I see it.

... you do know what makes Deathmarks so special, right?

I was under the impression, they were not allowed the 2+ rule because of the Gargantuan Creature rule.

They get the 2+ to wound when the deathmarks deepstrike. The gargantuan creature rule applies to the sniper rule. Here is the average damage to a wraith knight with a unit of 10 deathmarks+ D.lord in the group (assuming rapid fire range).

On average
20 shots hitting on 3+ re-rolling 1s
2/3 of 20 is 13.2 with 6.8 misses 3.4 being 1s with re-roll is 2.24 more hits after re-roll
15.44 hits wounding on 2+ with re-roll 1s
5/6 of 15.44 is 12.8152 with 2.62 misses 1.31 being 1s with re-roll is 1.09 more wounds after re-roll.
14.13 wounds with 1/6 of them being ap 2 is 2.26 that go through armor.
Wraithknights have a 3+ armor save so 2/3 of 11.87 is 7.83, 4.04 wounds get through armor + 2.26 = 6.3 unsaved wounds
FNP turns 6.3 into 4.22 wounds
Staff of light might get an extra wound
This won't kill it on average but it is very close to bringing it down in a single round for less points.

I find it amusing that you think a large unit with no scatter reduction can be relied on. Expecting a 10 man squad with a big DLord base to land in rapid fire range any amount of time is an exercise in frustration, in my experience.
.

The math hammer checks out and an 11 man squad isn't that hard to deeps trike in even with the dlord base being one of them. And you don't use the dlord as the deep strike marker model you use one of the deathmarks, you can place the dlord at any time when you deepstrike. Ideally you set your mark roughly 8 inches away from the wraithknight, you now have greater than 50% chance of being in rapid fire range terrain permitting. On average you will scatter roughly 6 inches, any arrow direction forward 180 degrees and you have all the death marks in rapid-fire range, as well as a decent amount for going to either side to still be in rapid range I'll need to do the measurements again but I think only the exact rear 65 degree cone is the largest section where if you scatter around average you won't be in rapid fire. And then of course if you land perfectly you are in rapidfire.

But aside from that point, how often do you deepstrike 25mm based units? It sounds like you have bad rolls or bad placement or worse case situations.

 Grimgold wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:I literally LOL'd at the fact Berserker Marines were listed as a unit capable of hurting Wraiths.

Khorne berserkers have a few issues, no AP, overcost, but if they get the charge, it's 4 attacks at str 5 per berserker (except for the champion who has 5 attacks at str 5), hitting on threes, wounding on fours. 41 attacks on a charge 14 wounds, 4 wounds make it thru and we have 2 dead wraiths. So yes they are a threat, and I mention them because I've had my wraiths roflstomped by them. Add in traitors hate for things like red rain and turn one charges, and you can see that while not a great unit berserkers can get work done even against an unarguably better unit like wraiths.

Your math doesn't factor in RP. 2.333 wounds make it to the Wraiths and you assign 1 wound to 1 Wraith in b2b and another wound to another Wraith in b2b. No dead wraiths on the charge.

Also, you are smoking a pipe if you think you can get the charge off on a unit with Wraithflight.

 Grimgold wrote:
Ok Pop quiz, how many other 200 point units can kill two wraiths on a charge? My wager paid for in affirmations is less than 5. Also you are way underselling WS 5; for example against WS 4 (which is almost everyone they will fight) that means a 24% increase in the number of hits. When you are slinging 41 attacks it's about 7 extra hits. They are quantifiably gak after the charge, but on the charge they are a top ten melee threat.

So Math says you are wrong, could we please stop this senseless bickering. I proved I was right like two post ago, I'm not even sure why we are still doing this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok so blood of kittens time,

5th at LVO
No pylons, wraith star for sure, whipcoils.

7th overall at LVO
No wraiths or pylons

13th at adepticon
Lychstar, no pylons or wraiths

1st wetcoast
Whip coils no pylons

1st overall dbm brawl
Hey we found pylons finally, but it's more of a chaos zombie list with pylons as fire support. Lychguard no wraiths.

Please believe me when I say that I am data obsessed, it's my job, and it's my hobby. I am very familiar with the current necron meta, and you are wrong, Demonstrably so.

"Oh, you think math is your ally. But you merely adopted the the min maxing; I was born in it, moulded by it. I didn't see a fluffy list until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but BLINDING! The math betrays you, because they belong to me!" or something like that.

...They're definitely not part of the top 10 most dangerous units on the charge. You're not actually serious are you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Like, I showed the math...

Ok care to name 10 units that get more and better attacks on the charge, I can think of TWC, Wulfen, wraiths(-ish), bikestars and then I'm struggling. Certainly if we restrict it to the 200 point range I can't think of much.

Oberron wrote:


The math hammer checks out and an 11 man squad isn't that hard to deeps trike in even with the doors base being one of them. And you don't use the door as the deep strike marker model you use one of the deathmarks, you can place the doors at any time when you deepstrike. Ideally you set your mark roughly 8 inches away from the wraithknight, you now have greater than 50% chance of being in rapid fire range terrain permitting. On average you will scatter roughly 6 inches, any arrow direction forward 180 degrees and you have all the death marks in rapid-fire range, as well as a decent amount for going to either side to still be in rapid range I'll need to do the measurements again but I think only the exact rear 65 degree cone is the largest section where if you scatter around average you won't be in rapid fire. And then of course if you land perfectly you are in rapidfire.

But aside from that point, how often do you deepstrike 25mm based units? It sounds like you have bad rolls or bad placement or worse case situations.

I deep strike aggressively. You want to be within 1.25" of the WK if you don't scatter. The bell curve works in your favor. If you scatter directly toward the WK, chances are you will wind up landing comfortably behind the WK. This way, you wind up in rapidfire range almost always. If you mishap, you can go back and arrive via Deep Strike next turn on a roll of a 4-6.

It's the best way to deep strike. If you have never done it, definitely try it out!

 Grimgold wrote:
Ok care to name 10 units that get more and better attacks on the charge, I can think of TWC, Wulfen, wraiths(-ish), bikestars and then I'm struggling. Certainly if we restrict it to the 200 point range I can't think of much.

Most Genestealer Cult units have plenty of attacks on the charge.

Another option could be Necron Flayed Ones.

Ork boys? they have a lot of attacks for cheap.

Also Murderhorde Flesh Hounds

 Grimgold wrote:
Ok care to name 10 units that get more and better attacks on the charge, I can think of TWC, Wulfen, wraiths(-ish), bikestars and then I'm struggling. Certainly if we restrict it to the 200 point range I can't think of much.

Either loadouts of Lychguard, Flayed Ones, Flesh Hounds, Praetorians (though iffy), Honour Guard (though it'll depend on the Chapter Tactics used but the Banner is more important), Chaos Terminators definitely (depending on the Legion, it gets VERY gruesome), Black and deathwing Knights (I don't know how the latter is getting the charge but you wanted name dropping), and the new and improved Vanguard.

Trust me when I say I'm not afraid of Berserker Marines, and if anything I feel more comfortable when they're around.

Ork slugga boys are great on the charge.

200 points gets you 29 slugga boys and a nob boss with a bosspole and a big Choppa.

They have furious charge on the charge.

29 X 4 = 116 attacks at str 4. 58 hits. 19.33 wounds 3.22 unsaved wounds (3++ and RP).
5 attacks at str 7 = 2.5 hits. = 2.08 wounds = 0.347 wounds

ork boys = 3.57 unsaved wounds

bezerkers = 2.33 unsaved wounds

orks win!

col_impact wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:I literally LOL'd at the fact Berserker Marines were listed as a unit capable of hurting Wraiths.

Khorne berserkers have a few issues, no AP, overcost, but if they get the charge, it's 4 attacks at str 5 per berserker (except for the champion who has 5 attacks at str 5), hitting on threes, wounding on fours. 41 attacks on a charge 14 wounds, 4 wounds make it thru and we have 2 dead wraiths. So yes they are a threat, and I mention them because I've had my wraiths roflstomped by them. Add in traitors hate for things like red rain and turn one charges, and you can see that while not a great unit berserkers can get work done even against an unarguably better unit like wraiths.

Your math doesn't factor in RP. 2.333 wounds make it to the Wraiths and you assign 1 wound to 1 Wraith in b2b and another wound to another Wraith in b2b. No dead wraiths on the charge.

Also, you are smoking a pipe if you think you can get the charge off on a unit with Wraithflight.

FYI, page 446 states you have to keep assigning wounds to the same model (assuming it's in b2b with the same attacking model).

sieGermans wrote:


FYI, page 446 states you have to keep assigning wounds to the same model (assuming it's in b2b with the same attacking model).

My mistake. You can assign wounds to a different model in b2b contact when it becomes a different wound pool. But that is not the case being described. Thanks for the correction.

Q: Do Canoptek Wraiths and C’tan suffer the Initiative penalty
when charging through terrain, despite their special rules which
allow them to treat other models and terrain as if they were open
ground when moving?
A: No.
Q: Do the Wraithflight and Immune to Natural Law rules work
only in the movement phase or do they work during any kind of
movement, such as Run, charge and Consolidation moves?
A: The Wraithflight and Immune to Natural Law rules
take effect any time the model moves in any phase.

Turns out Whip Coils are pretty king.

Good, I'm glad they reverted that.

Other things of note:

-You can't reembark in a Night Scythe once on the board. This was always sorta in contention, just glad to have it cleared up.

-Obelisk does not force Dangerous Terrain on FMCs. So, making it more useless.

-Deathmarks 2+ against GMC is official now, so that's not bad.

-Tesla Spheres on the Obelisk have 180 degree firing arcs, which is actually quite good despite my earlier remark.

-Retribution Phalanx cannot charge when it comes back. The answer also says "use the rules for deep strike when they come back" (paraphrased), so do they need to cluster in a ball as Deep Strikers normally do?

-Still didn't answer if Praetorians can start in their own Night Scythes since they're Jump. But at least the Scythes get access to the Judicator Battalion's rerolls.