How Tall are Space Marines? I'm gathering references

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**Crimson**

odinsgrandson wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Current Chaos Marine Codex says marines (and it is talking about normal. non-chaos marines) are seven feet. Studio has been really consistent with this over the years: Marines are about seven feet tall. Some BL books might sometimes portray them as larger, but even those tend to be pretty damn vague, just like Ashirya's quote earlier (anything that uses descriptions like 'hands as big as shovels' is not a mathematically accurate description.)

Thanks for the reference. Don't happen to have a page number as well, do you?

Page 36: "the Space Marines stand seven feet tall..."

**odinsgrandson**

Thanks

Keep wrote:

Also, what makes you think people in the imperium are as tall as people are today?

Well, Catachans...

But I see your point. I think the average male height in North America is 5'9" but it is much lower in South America.

I'd expect the "Average" person in the 40k universe to be similar to people from current Nottinghamshire.

**Wyzilla**

Ashiraya wrote:
Keep wrote:
Ashiraya wrote:
Pg 94 The Last Detail wrote:It’ll be dark soon,’ the boy’s father said. ‘We should perhaps stay here another night and then set off at dawn.’ ‘No time,’ the Astartes said. Now that he was upright he seemed even huger, half as tall again as the man in front of him, his hands as big as shovels, his chest as wide as a dining table. ‘I see in the dark. You can follow me.

I've always preferred to go with this book as its descriptions generally make the most sense.

In this case, the 'man before him' is just below 6 feet.

So the Marine, outside of armour, is just below 9'.

Armour won't add more than a few inches though. So at, or about, 9'.

So you say that a marine with hands as big as shovels has a bolter that fits in his hands (gigantic) but fires (in relation) only toothpick sized little bolts (0.75") is making sense ? No it doesnt make any sense and it contradicts several statements. 9" is wishfull thinking of fanboys/girls who think bigger = always better

And 7' is only the realm of IGhammer fanboys who hate the idea of anything more powerful than a stormtrooper, and do everything they can do mitigate those things.

Your brush is as wide as a Leman Russ.

Consider using something smaller to paint other people with.

No, 0,75 doesn't make all that much sense fwiw - seems like far too meek firepower to use for your buff supersoldiers.

But then, they should all use plasma guns really if their armaments did make sense. With flamers as backup weapons. It's not like they couldn't afford it when those weapons are given to darn guardsmen.

.75/20mm is more then enough for your supersoldiers. Just for an example, somebody trying to shoulder and fire a browning or one of those Cartel assault rifles that fire .50 would likely break their shoulder. The only way a human can even physically fire .75/20mm rounds is either with a mounted bipod dug into the ground, a pintle mounted turret, or holding it at the hip and dropping it when the recoil hits.

.75 caliber is an autocannon round in real life that does very, very nasty things to people trying to fire a bolt action rifle chambering such rounds. Let alone an automatic .75/20mm rifle. That would just destroy anything not made of muscle or wearing reinforced armor suits.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Keep wrote:
Ashiraya wrote:

But look at those soles, they are huge.
When you add the top of the helmet, he is not far above 6'.
Which is basically human average height, plus a couple of inches. Nothing special or out of the ordinary with that. Which contradicts every single statement about Space Marines that has ever been made and that does not involve numbers.

"just a couple of inches"... 12-18" if you assume a large human. And at least double if not triple their shoulder width and at least 4times the mass. Yeah, right, i'm not sure with who'm you hang out with, but that is not ordinary and outright massive.

In Space Marine I can kill thousands of Orks alone, outside of single player (so I'm only playing a standard assault marine), without dying. With no weapons other than chainsword and bolt pistol.

So what? This is in no way different to many BL novels.... also, gameplay has nothing to do with the art work. Games make it that easy so you feel powerfull and mighty... Not because they couldnt think of better ideas how to make your life harder.

Also, what makes you think people in the imperium are as tall as people are today? IoM is rhich with desease and famine. They dont have fast food around every corner where they can binge on fatty food and meat whenever they want. Lack of quality food (in particulary access to meat) reduces the maximum heigth people grow to. Japanese have been way smaller in their past. Now they are almost comparable to europeans in average heigth because they have easy access to meat. The same will happen in China as well. During a famine in romania the children during that period where way smaller then everybody the ones before and after them, because of lack of meat and other food.

And average human height is a fair bit less than six foot. Especially for females. And historically, the average height decreased significantly, during the middle ages, it was about five feet. I can imagine in the horrible conditions of the 40kiverse, they're not really breeding excellent physical specimens of humanity all that often...
exactly. Lack of meat, diseases, etc.

The Imperium doesn't suffer from famine. Though it's not pleasant, the common gruel is nutrient paste, and Guardsmen such as Cadians should be six foot tall uber-men similar to the modern American military. Bred the best, raised the best, fed the best. The only population you'd likely find to be consistently malnourished and short in stature are underhivers and other populations living in the very bottom tier of Imperial society.

**Bobthehero**

Even the Movie Marines are described as 7'

**the ancient**

Black Library had them at 8' in a line up not long ago.

A 6'6 marine only makes sense if you've spent all your time indoor's inventing war games. If you've played any type of contact sport, No, soccer doesn't count. Its kind of tiny for a super soldier.

I personally know a few squads worth of people that are bigger than marines.

What's dumber is making them wider than most doorway's in existence.

**kveldulf**

My estimation puts them at 7'6" average, with a variance of 6 inch either way - without armour. I don't recall exact references of what I've read, sorry; so my thought on height is probably more opinion.

In my mind, space marines are dramatically different than regular humans, both in proportion and height... I think its more consistent with warhammer sized methodology this way too. Here's an interesting photo on proportions, to put some perspective on what I'm talking about....

**odinsgrandson**

the ancient wrote:
Black Library had them at 8' in a line up not long ago.

Cool- is that still around? I'd love to add it to the citations.

**Darth Bob**

I've always pictured them from 7' to 8', with the majority resting somewhere in between those two. The fluff seems to paint that picture, because while it doesn't explicitly state their height all the time, it does go on and on about how they "tower over mortal men" and such. The Primarchs are described as being as tall to Space Marines as they are to humans (with the exception of outliers like Alpharius and Magnus). Considering most of them are at least 9 to 10 feet tall, some even moreso, I think 7 to 8 feet is probably reasonable.

**odinsgrandson**

Hey- do you have any references on those Primarch heights? I found one about how Leman Russ was pretty tall in comparison to other Space Wolves, but that's all the references I could find.

**Veteran Sergeant**

A 7'6" person definitely towers over most people. That's almost two feet taller than the average Chinese man, and more than a foot and a half taller than the average US or UK man.

I don't know how many times some of you have stood next to someone even six to eight inches taller than you, but a 7-7.5 footer with another half a person's width on them is a big, big dude.

**Great White**

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
A 7'6" person definitely towers over most people. That's almost two feet taller than the average Chinese man, and more than a foot and a half taller than the average US or UK man.

I don't know how many times some of you have stood next to someone even six to eight inches taller than you, but a 7-7.5 footer with another half a person's width on them is a big, big dude.

Itd be like standing next to a bear

**Wyzilla**

kveldulf wrote:
My estimation puts them at 7'6" average, with a variance of 6 inch either way - without armour. I don't recall exact references of what I've read, sorry; so my thought on height is probably more opinion.

In my mind, space marines are dramatically different than regular humans, both in proportion and height... I think its more consistent with warhammer sized methodology this way too. Here's an interesting photo on proportions, to put some perspective on what I'm talking about....

That pic is notorious for not making any damn sense because of how thin that makes the power armor. Astartes just look like buffed up tall human males, not freakishly thick elephant men.

**Grey Templar**

odinsgrandson wrote:
the ancient wrote:
Black Library had them at 8' in a line up not long ago.

Cool- is that still around? I'd love to add it to the citations.

It wasn't actually 8', the scale laughably started at 2'

**kveldulf**

Wyzilla wrote:
kveldulf wrote:
My estimation puts them at 7'6" average, with a variance of 6 inch either way - without armour. I don't recall exact references of what I've read, sorry; so my thought on height is probably more opinion.

In my mind, space marines are dramatically different than regular humans, both in proportion and height... I think its more consistent with warhammer sized methodology this way too. Here's an interesting photo on proportions, to put some perspective on what I'm talking about....

That pic is notorious for not making any damn sense because of how thin that makes the power armor. Astartes just look like buffed up tall human males, not freakishly thick elephant men.

I don't know how you get that its depicting 'thin' armour (or what you mean by thin). Much of the bulk from space marine armour does not come from the power armour (recalling some HH novels supporting that). The overall thickness of power armour seems like it shouldn't more than .25" thick, at most (including sub system doodads and standoff). - opinion mind you

Also, something to consider, there are a lot of extra bits that marines have implanted; the physiology required to suit it would need to change things like proportions, even if it is just a bit. Though things like a secondary heart are not a small thing to accommodate i wager.

**Wyzilla**

kveldulf wrote:
Wyzilla wrote:
kveldulf wrote:
My estimation puts them at 7'6" average, with a variance of 6 inch either way - without armour. I don't recall exact references of what I've read, sorry; so my thought on height is probably more opinion.

In my mind, space marines are dramatically different than regular humans, both in proportion and height... I think its more consistent with warhammer sized methodology this way too. Here's an interesting photo on proportions, to put some perspective on what I'm talking about....

That pic is notorious for not making any damn sense because of how thin that makes the power armor. Astartes just look like buffed up tall human males, not freakishly thick elephant men.

I don't know how you get that its depicting 'thin' armour (or what you mean by thin). Much of the bulk from space marine armour does not come from the power armour (recalling some HH novels supporting that). The overall thickness of power armour seems like it shouldn't more than .25" thick, at most (including sub system doodads and standoff). - opinion mind you

Also, something to consider, there are a lot of extra bits that marines have implanted; the physiology required to suit it would need to change things like proportions, even if it is just a bit. Though things like a secondary heart are not a small thing to accommodate i wager.

Power armor is made of a first layer of various medical equipment, including life support, stims, stored food, drugs, water, and feedback cables that plug into the Astartes' body. Around/above that is a set of synthetic muscles and nanotech guts that allow the suit to move in the first place. Then there's the soft armor that goes over some parts such as the joints and neck. Next is the armor player, which begins with a mixture of plasteel, durasteel, and sometimes adamantium, followed up by a final ablative layer of ceramite for heat absorption and protection from energy weapons.

It is incredibly thick. This has always been one of the few consistent things about Power Armor, dating all the way back to rogue trader. Thickness would probably be close to around MBT armor, at least two inches. Also, Sibbering's picture you posted is non-canon fanart made for Sibbering's alternate 40k fan verse that he works on. Or did you even bother to read the source?

This is power armor.

**kveldulf**

Wyzilla wrote:

Power armor is made of a first layer of various medical equipment, including life support, stims, stored food, drugs, water, and feedback cables that plug into the Astartes' body. Around/above that is a set of synthetic muscles and nanotech guts that allow the suit to move in the first place. Then there's the soft armor that goes over some parts such as the joints and neck. Next is the armor player, which begins with a mixture of plasteel, durasteel, and sometimes adamantium, followed up by a final ablative layer of ceramite for heat absorption and protection from energy weapons.

It is incredibly thick. This has always been one of the few consistent things about Power Armor, dating all the way back to rogue trader. Thickness would probably be close to around MBT armor, at least two inches. Also, Sibbering's picture you posted is non-canon fanart made for Sibbering's alternate 40k fan verse that he works on. Or did you even bother to read the source?

This is power armor.

You know looking at that diagram I again, and I wonder if its hovering close to the 2" mark. Regardless, I really don't see how you would need 2" inches to accommodate all of these things; sounds like too much of a modern perspective than 'futuristic' one (even warhammer size). To elaborate, I would argue that you are making these layers sound way bigger than they need to be. 'Synthetic muscles' surely wouldn't need so much space to operate. Medical systems could be nothing more than small capillaries...

I've been playing since the 90's and it would be news to me that power armour must be 2" thick (I guess I may have missed that). Maybe at the pauldrons where it is connected to second plate its much thicker, but the rest, in place like the smooth areas of the vambrace, rerebrace, cuisses then no, surely it would not. Even the couter wouldn't be composed so uniformly with each layer necessarily.

**Ashiraya**

Brothers of the Snake lists them as 8', I believe.

**the ancient**

Grey Templar wrote:
odinsgrandson wrote:
the ancient wrote:
Black Library had them at 8' in a line up not long ago.

Cool- is that still around? I'd love to add it to the citations.

It wasn't actually 8', the scale laughably started at 2'

Last years weekender email that did the rounds.

**Furyou Miko**

Grey Templar is a little confused, he's thinking of the Jes Goodwin height chart, which is even more misleading A) it starts at 1 instead of 0, and B) it has Jes sitting down to make the Marine look bigger.

As for Ashirayas' quote about the 9' tall Space Marine, that is from the perspective of a small child, whose angle of view will make the Marine look even taller than he really is when compared to a 6' tall man standing between the two.

**the ancient**

A strong wind looks big next to Jes in that pic.

Going by the competition they've got going, a Marine is the height of a offensive lineman, (which we all know was to limit what they give away) and twice as wide. In 10 years they will be bigger than a marine.

They're not feed growth hormone's, roid's and whatever since they were 10-12.

Wasn't there a space wolf that needed modified terminator armour to fit him?

I think of marine's at 7.5' average. A head and shoulders over mortal men. A primarch, a head and shoulders over a marine, putting them at 10' tall and plasma proof.

**Ashiraya**

Furyou Miko wrote:

As for Ashirayas' quote about the 9' tall Space Marine, that is from the perspective of a small child, whose angle of view will make the Marine look even taller than he really is when compared to a 6' tall man standing between the two.

No, it was from the perspective of an omniscient narrator.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's simple really. 7' is 16% taller than 6'. The man in the story was well-built and tall - no basketball player, but certainly in the 6' ballpark. 'Half again' is 50%. 50% is not 16%.

9' (ish, it could be 9'1" or 8'11" or something around there) is canon. Of course, 7' is also canon. But dismissing either as false is false in itself.

At 9' ish they would be this tall

Spoiler:

(Taking into account SM isn't standing straight)

Which makes perfect sense to me. Looks suitably heroic/mythic without going OTT. Let the QQ begin.

**Keep**

Wyzilla wrote:

.75/20mm is more then enough for your supersoldiers. Just for an example, somebody trying to shoulder and fire a browning or one of those Cartel assault rifles that fire .50 would likely break their shoulder. The only way a human can even physically fire .75/20mm rounds is either with a mounted bipod dug into the ground, a pintle mounted turret, or holding it at the hip and dropping it when the recoil hits.

.75 caliber is an autocannon round in real life that does very, very nasty things to people trying to fire a bolt action rifle chambering such rounds. Let alone an automatic .75/20mm rifle. That would just destroy anything not made of muscle or wearing reinforced armor suits.

.75 caliber is .75 caliber. It doesnt give away its power or recoil. I don't see them having problems with firing 25mm from their shoulder. And that's an ordinary round opposed to boltrounds that are selfpropelled projectiles. Bolt rounds are enough for mansized enemies, yes. But their guns would fire ridiculously small rounds for their size, if the marines that are holding them would be 9 feets tall.

9' (ish, it could be 9'1" or 8'11" or something around there) is canon

Source for 9' ? "The" book doesnt give an explicit number, you made that number up.

Which makes perfect sense to me. Looks suitably heroic/mythic without going OTT

So "looking heroic" is the only criterium you go by for a size to make sense for a supersoldier?

**Ashiraya**

Keep wrote:

Source for 9' ? "The" book doesnt give an explicit number, you made that number up.

Take 6'. Take half again that. Add it together. Is it really that difficult?

As said, it does not have to end up exactly 9'. It can be 8'11", it can be 9'1". But 50% is not 16% even if you and Crimson really really really want it to be.

I realise it may be tough, but you gotta understand that there's others than you here who can be right.

Sometimes, you'll have to make do with that.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Keep wrote:
So "looking heroic" is the only criterium you go by for a size to make sense for a supersoldier?

The entire setting runs on the rule of cool.

Are you going to start complaining on Titans not making sense next?

Hell, even at 12', Marines would make more sense than mountain-sized Warlord Titans.

**Keep**

The entire setting runs on the rule of cool.
Are you going to start complaining on Titans not making sense next?

No because titans dont operate in confined spaces that where build for smaller living beeings... Which Marines are supposed to do. How do they conduct boarding operations against eldar or TAU if they can't even duck through their bulkheads? You can't blow everything away. Beeing double the size not only means that they can't fit through tunnels, doors, etc, it also means they can be shot from extreme distance easier, they cant find cover easily, they are hard to conceal in case they need to conceal themself for surprise attacks. Their weight could easily crash them through buildings or destroy unstable environments (rocks/mountains) and render them unfit for combat, or deny them their objective.

Hell, even at 12', Marines would make more sense than mountain-sized Warlord Titans.

They are not as tall as the artwork. The largest are not taller then 50m.

**Ashiraya**

Keep wrote:
The entire setting runs on the rule of cool.
Are you going to start complaining on Titans not making sense next?

No because titans dont operate in confined spaces that where build for smaller living beeings... Which Marines are supposed to do. How do they conduct boarding operations against eldar or TAU if they can't even duck through their bulkheads? You can't blow everything away. Beeing double the size not only means that they can't fit through tunnels, doors, etc, it also means they can be shot from extreme distance easier, they cant find cover easily, they are hard to conceal in case they need to conceal themself for surprise attacks. Their weight could easily crash them through buildings or destroy unstable environments (rocks/mountains) and render them unfit for combat, or deny them their objective.

Hell, even at 12', Marines would make more sense than mountain-sized Warlord Titans.

They are not as tall as the artwork. The largest are not taller then 50m.

A shame, because the artwork is canon.

I am calling bogus on any argument that says Marines can't work in confined spaces (why are you sending them into confined spaces?) while the Imperium simultaneously employs vehicles that would break apart at the hip the moment they left the assembly line.

The Titan is a far far far worse design than any Marine, no matter which source size you use. There is a word for what you are doing and it is called 'cherrypicking'.

Cherrypicking is actually fine in 40k as it's what the setting is designed for, it's why there's contradictions all over the damn place, but don't pretend you're not doing it to assume some kind of moral high ground.

**Keep**

I am calling bogus on any argument that says Marines can't work in confined spaces (why are you sending them into confined spaces?) while the Imperium simultaneously employs vehicles that would break apart at the hip the moment they left the assembly line.

That a 2.7m tall at least 1.5m wide giant can't fit through spaces that are only 2m tall and 0.7-1m wide (average human doors), is bogus because what?
Because you have conducted a finite element analysis of titans hipjoints? Or what makes you think that titans must break apart if they would exist in real life? Your engineering degree?

why are you sending them into confined spaces?

Because... they are supposed to fight the enemy? What use is a super soldier if the only defense you need is tunnels/entries to fortifications/ship bridges/rooms no higher then 2.0m and 0.8m width. ? You dont even need doors in that case, the doorway is enough. If your infantry is unable to do the stuff that infantry is good for, it's useless as infantry and you need a replacement.

**Ashiraya**

Keep wrote:
Because you have conducted a finite element analysis of titans hipjoints? Or what makes you think that titans must break apart if they would exist in real life? Your engineering degree?

No, not my engineering degree. The square-cube law.

Because... they are supposed to fight the enemy? What use is a super soldier if the only defense you need is tunnels/entries to fortifications/ship bridges/rooms no higher then 2.0m and 0.8m width. ? You dont even need doors in that case, the doorway is enough. If your infantry is unable to do the stuff that infantry is good for, it's useless as infantry and you need a replacement.

You have Tempestus Scions for that.

You could make the same argument for Dreadnoughts, that they can't fit anywhere meaningful. But they're still used (instead of just using Devastators in their place).

Everything in 40K is so oversized so it's pretty much never going to be a problem to fit in even at 2,78m. Believe it or not, most corridors are not claustrophobic spaces where you can only walk one person in a row.

Spoiler:

**Keep**

Ashiraya wrote:
No, not my engineering degree. The square-cube law.

omg

this law describes the relation of somethings volume to its surface area when it is scaled up. This has nothing to do with forces or things breaking apart.

Everything in 40K is so oversized so it's pretty much never going to be a problem to fit in even at 2,78m. Believe it or not, most corridors are not claustrophobic spaces where you can only walk one person in a row.

That's a factory. It is not a bunker/fortification system, or the interior of a battleship. Now think hard about where marines will actually fight most likely most of the time, when you count interior battles only....

**odinsgrandson**

Ok, we aren't really talking about the practicality of creating giant robots, are we? Ok, I'm going to invoke the "Giant Robot Paradox." It goes like this:

"If you have the technology to create a giant combat robot, you can spend fewer resources to create a tank that is better than your giant robot."

We love titans, and indeed all kinds of mechs, because they're cool. But realistic, they aren't.

Ashiraya wrote:

9' (ish, it could be 9'1" or 8'11" or something around there) is canon. Of course, 7' is also canon. But dismissing either as false is false in itself.

This is the truth, here. Sure, we can argue whether Wolverine had bone claws, but in the end, the fluff is not consistently making the same statements.

I know a lot of people argue that the Black Library stuff isn't cannon, but it is at least official Warhammer 40,000. I find it funny that the Movie Marines put them at 7' tall, because the stated purpose behind those rules was to create a rules set that represented the Black Library books.

Ashiraya wrote:
Brothers of the Snake lists them as 8', I believe.

Ooh, can you find that reference so that I can add it to the list?

**Icculus**

Horus Rising description of Gavriel Loken, a Luna Wolf wrote:
His helm, with its lateral horsebrush crest, was off, hung at his waist. He was a giant, two and a half metres tall.

So this is Horus Rising, and this is Loken. So 30k. Maybe they were bigger then. But 2.5 meters is over 8 feet tall.