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The title says all. I know that there are better weapons for the HW slot, but why is there so much disdain for the heavy bolter?

My 2c:

S5 is too weak for an advanced weapon. At least S6 to deal with everything
AP4 isn't that much to speak for. AP3 is the sweet spot for advanced weapons
Heavy 3 is okay
36"... coud hit farther to be safe

It's not strong enough to sacrifice moving for, and it is highly ineffective if you have to snap shoot it.

 Vector Strike wrote:
My 2c:

S5 is too weak for an advanced weapon. At least S6 to deal with everything
AP4 isn't that much to speak for. AP3 is the sweet spot for advanced weapons
Heavy 3 is okay
36"... coud hit farther to be safe

Yep. For 5 points more, a ML is 48", S8 AP 4, or S4 but a Blast, and a PC is S7 AP2 small Blast. The ML can also get Skyfire. As it is, the Heavy Bolter is overpriced. Were it the same cost as a Flamer, I think it would be better, but as is, it can't compete. I think even giving it Rending at its current cost would make it a better choice.

If you are going to use a squad or team to sit back and shoot, there are much better options. I would take a ML or PC any day if I am building a back field objective holder. Tac marines need to be riding to objectives or storming enemy positions to soak overwatch fire for the real assault infantry.

Now alternatively speaking, they have a place in 30k lists in heavy support squads where they can put out withering amounts of anti-infantry fire relatively cheaply. Don't Imperial Fists get bonuses when using bolters and heavy bolters?

what about it being used as an anti-infantry defensive weapon? Like being on your objective holders, or a tac. gun line?
Mind you, I am not ignoring the better weapons, just thinking of a place for it. Against a guardsmen spam, green tide, or eldar infantry, it definitely has its uses. Admittedly, it wont stop MEQs, but a higher strength than frag missiles, and less risky to the marine than plasma guns, Thats a good side, isnt it?

I don't know what I hate more - naked marines or marines with heavy bolters.

All I can say for the heavy bolter is that is lets you outshoot DA. Kinda.

The only way I run heavy bolters is 2+ in a devastator squad. And even then, it's only effective against a handful of troops choices.... unless I'm up against massed howling banshees or something I'd rather take missile/plasma. It's mainly for fluff that I like to run the things.

If it's on a tac squad, they're going to be charging ahead the first few turns, towards an obective. That's 2 or more turns that you're going to be snap firing.... better to not have any heavy weapon in that case.

 Azreal13 wrote:
It's not strong enough to sacrifice moving for, and it is highly ineffective if you have to snap shoot it.

This right here. I'd rather save the 5 points and remain mobile with a Bolter.

I'd rather take one of the AP2 guns. Massed heavy bolters will force a lot of saves, but I would rather have mobility and some AP 2 and anti armor.
That said, some of the newer Tyranid stuff is a bit weak against AP 4. It might have some usefulness there.

Things to change when you use Imperial Fist/Sentinels of Tara.
With the re-rolls it increased your chances to hit.

It also depends on what the rest of your army is tolled up for. If you already have buckets of anti-tank weapons and you are fighting something like Orks or Nids an extra Missie launcher might not do you any good, but tree shots that should wound on 2+ will.

Too bad heavy bolters don't wound Orks on 2+.

Heavy bolters ought to be changed to salvo 2/3 and cost 5 points, honestly that's the only thing I think should be changed about them.

They did see a lot of use when Sisters had them for 5 ppm.

How much of that that's because the alternative was Heavy Flamers at 20 ppm or because they were Rending may depend on the meta.

 Zewrath wrote:
Heavy bolters ought to be changed to salvo 2/3 and cost 5 points, honestly that's the only thing I think should be changed about them.

I'll second that!

I'd rather have S6 and make it a cheapo assault cannon.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
My 2c:

S5 is too weak for an advanced weapon. At least S6 to deal with everything
AP4 isn't that much to speak for. AP3 is the sweet spot for advanced weapons
Heavy 3 is okay
36"... coud hit farther to be safe

Yep. For 5 points more, a ML is 48", S8 AP 4, or S4 but a Blast, and a PC is S7 AP2 small Blast. The ML can also get Skyfire. As it is, the Heavy Bolter is overpriced. Were it the same cost as a Flamer, I think it would be better, but as is, it can't compete. I think even giving it Rending at its current cost would make it a better choice.

Krak Missile is AP3 not AP4.

Brennonjw wrote:The title says all. I know that there are better weapons for the HW slot, but why is there so much disdain for the heavy bolter?

Because they were invented in a day when AV12+ vehicles were rare, and basically nobody took monstrous creatures (which were limited to Sv4+ with no ++). They didn't have to deal with superheavies either.

Back when 40k was a game of infantry tactics with a few bits of exotic support units thrown in there, the heavy bolter had a lot of work on its hands. Now that we're in a game where you see how many riptides or wave serpents or russes you can cram into a list, well... they just have a lot less they're good against, and you'd rather not waste weapon slots on stuff that can't handle those heavy targets.

Heavy Bolters have been largely meh forever. It has always suffered in comparison to other weapons offered as alternatives.

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:
Heavy bolters ought to be changed to salvo 2/3 and cost 5 points, honestly that's the only thing I think should be changed about them.

I'll second that!

it'd definatly be a popular gun then.

Oh, also, there's the other side of it. While the number of things the heavy bolter isn't strong against have increased extremely rapidly, the number of things the heavy bolter is strong against has died off.

In 4th edition, you needed to take at least a few heavy bolters because you wouldn't be able to handle hordes without them. Now nobody brings hordes anymore, for good reason.

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
It's not strong enough to sacrifice moving for, and it is highly ineffective if you have to snap shoot it.

This right here. I'd rather save the 5 points and remain mobile with a Bolter.

They're 10 points, so even more of a pain


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Opera wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
My 2c:

S5 is too weak for an advanced weapon. At least S6 to deal with everything
AP4 isn't that much to speak for. AP3 is the sweet spot for advanced weapons
Heavy 3 is okay
36"... coud hit farther to be safe

Yep. For 5 points more, a ML is 48", S8 AP 4, or S4 but a Blast, and a PC is S7 AP2 small Blast. The ML can also get Skyfire. As it is, the Heavy Bolter is overpriced. Were it the same cost as a Flamer, I think it would be better, but as is, it can't compete. I think even giving it Rending at its current cost would make it a better choice.

Krak Missile is AP3 not AP4.

Ah, thank you. I couldn't recall if it was 3 or 4. Thus making the Heavy Bolter even worse


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:
Oh, also, there's the other side of it. While the number of things the heavy bolter isn't strong against have increased extremely rapidly, the number of things the heavy bolter is strong against has died off.

In 4th edition, you needed to take at least a few heavy bolters because you wouldn't be able to handle hordes without them. Now nobody brings hordes anymore, for good reason.

The only hordes I really see anymore are some Nid spam, in which taking out the high value targets is your best bet or lots of flamers that ignore cover saves, are some green tide hordes, but even those are rare.

jreilly89 wrote:The only hordes I really see anymore are some Nid spam, in which taking out the high value targets is your best bet or lots of flamers that ignore cover saves, are some green tide hordes, but even those are rare.

Yeah, and thinking back to 4th edition, before every codex gave you as many transports as you wanted, I saw plenty of hordes. Does anybody remember footdar? or WWP DE? Or when marine players used to actually bring scouts? And yeah, green tides, blob guard, and terevigon+gribblies nids were plenty common all the way through 5th.

There used to be a LOT to shoot your heavy bolters at.

I always take a unit of 4 Heavy Bolters with my Soroitas Heavy Weapons squads (Retributors) and feel they are worth it. Granted, Retributors do get make them Rending twice a game and their only other options are Heavy Flamers or Multi-Meltas.

If HB were assault 4, they'd be worth it.

 Lobukia wrote:
If HB were assault 4, they'd be worth it.

Heck, if they were just assault anything I'd be happy! I do see it as a bit silly though (considering heavy is in the name), so compromising with salvo would be great.

Then again, HEAVY flamer is assault, and ASSAULT cannon is heavy.....

 Ailaros wrote:

Brennonjw wrote:The title says all. I know that there are better weapons for the HW slot, but why is there so much disdain for the heavy bolter?

Because they were invented in a day when AV12+ vehicles were rare, and basically nobody took monstrous creatures (which were limited to Sv4+ with no ++). They didn't have to deal with superheavies either.

Back when 40k was a game of infantry tactics with a few bits of exotic support units thrown in there, the heavy bolter had a lot of work on its hands. Now that we're in a game where you see how many riptides or wave serpents or russes you can cram into a list, well... they just have a lot less they're good against, and you'd rather not waste weapon slots on stuff that can't handle those heavy targets.

Don't kid yourself. The Heavy Bolter wasn't worth anything back then, and definitely isn't worth anything now. The stats are much worse for handling hordes compared to other options like Flamers and Frag Missiles.

 kingbobbito wrote:
Heck, if they were just assault anything I'd be happy! I do see it as a bit silly though (considering heavy is in the name), so compromising with salvo would be great.

Then again, HEAVY flamer is assault, and ASSAULT cannon is heavy.....

Imagine boltguns as Assault 2. Tacs would rule the world...

 Tigramans wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:
Heck, if they were just assault anything I'd be happy! I do see it as a bit silly though (considering heavy is in the name), so compromising with salvo would be great.

Then again, HEAVY flamer is assault, and ASSAULT cannon is heavy.....

Imagine boltguns as Assault 2. Tacs would rule the world...

Can we make storm bolters Assault 4 so my termies don't suck so bad?