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 ImAGeek wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Yeah. It's the Cabal who tell them. Although, we don't know if 1. The Cabal were actually telling the truth, or 2. The AL belive them. They might be following their own agenda. We don't really know the goal of Alpharius, and Omegons looks to be different too.

Oh god why

Except that was in Legion, the first modern fluff for the AL. So the meme hadn't been played out then.

Also, you can't exactly blame the writers for how far the readers take something. I find the portrayals of the AL in the FW and BL fiction to be fine, it's people on here and other sites that are annoying about them.

Speaking of which, aside from Legion and a book on dickering up the RG, has there been any new AL fluff come down the pipeline?

The Serpent Beneath, a short story in the Primarchs, which is excellent; Seventh Serpent, a Novella by Graham McNeill which is eh, they feature in Scars, and I think they're in a story in Seditions Gate which I don't have. And their section in Extermination. They also appear briefly in Unremembered Empire.

Sadly, yes. Graham McNeill "surprised" everybody with a novella where the Alpha Legion are secretly Iron Hands. And Abnett surprised everybody with some Ultramarines who were secretly Alpha Legion. And there was a short story in Age of Darkness where a World Eater was secretly Alpha Legion, and then another short story where, not kidding, Alpha Legion were secretly Alpha Legion.

 Otto Weston wrote:
Whilst I never read or knew about the old Alpha Legion Fluff, I don't believe the new stuff is silly or a joke. How can you fight a Legion when you don't know where they are, what they've done or what they're capable of?

It's silly because the Alpha Legion are supposed to be Space Marines, but they don't do any Space Marine stuff. And everything they do do is ridiculous and not believable. Their fluff is a series of cheap plot hooks and amateur gak-show writing where everyone at the Black Library seems to be in an arms race to write the worst, most unrealistic, goofiest Alpha Legion story possible.

Have you read the FW fluff on them? It's excellent.

The Alpha Legion's greatest deception is making everyone think they are everywhere, when in fact they are barely anywhere.

Although if I wanted to be cool, I'd probably make something up about how the leader of my Goliath gang is secretly an Alpha Legion marine without his armor, and sporting a mohawk, secretly doing blah, blah...

TiamatRoar wrote:

 Shadowclaimer wrote:

Wasn't Alpharius told that in order for the Imperium to survive he had to join the traitors? If so that really justifies how during the Heresy why he acted "on Horus's side", but meanwhile was running his own sorties and missions that Horus didn't know/understand.

Alpharius eventually betrayed those guys who told him he had to join the traitors for the Imperium to survive (actually, NOT for the Imperium to survive. It was for Chaos to be destroyed, and humanity along with it).

So basically Alpharius right now is betraying EVERYONE. This continues in later stories where he's continually screwing with everyone, including himself.

Exactly!

Everyone seems to forget this!

I don't think the Alpha Legion believe everything the Cabal has told/shown them - but I believe they're in over their heads.

Too clever by half, and all that.

 Alpharius wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:

 Shadowclaimer wrote:

Wasn't Alpharius told that in order for the Imperium to survive he had to join the traitors? If so that really justifies how during the Heresy why he acted "on Horus's side", but meanwhile was running his own sorties and missions that Horus didn't know/understand.

Alpharius eventually betrayed those guys who told him he had to join the traitors for the Imperium to survive (actually, NOT for the Imperium to survive. It was for Chaos to be destroyed, and humanity along with it).

So basically Alpharius right now is betraying EVERYONE. This continues in later stories where he's continually screwing with everyone, including himself.

Exactly!

Everyone seems to forget this!

I don't think the Alpha Legion believe everything the Cabal has told/shown them - but I believe they're in over their heads.

Too clever by half, and all that.

Yeah, they aren't atupid. I don't think they just believed the Cabal like that. I think they have their own motives, but I think they're different depending who in the legion you ask...

I really, really wish the Alpha Legion would just return to their old Index Astartes background. The Cabal never made sense, and merely makes Alpharius (and/or Omegon) look slowed and incapable of critical thinking.

 Wyzilla wrote:
I really, really wish the Alpha Legion would just return to their old Index Astartes background. The Cabal never made sense, and merely makes Alpharius (and/or Omegon) look slowed and incapable of critical thinking.

Only if you assume they blindly went along with it.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
I really, really wish the Alpha Legion would just return to their old Index Astartes background. The Cabal never made sense, and merely makes Alpharius (and/or Omegon) look slowed and incapable of critical thinking.

Only if you assume they blindly went along with it.

Even entertaining the idea that the Cabal's council may have had truth to it is complete stupidity. They have no reason to tell the truth to Alpharius, not to mention if that was truly their plan, it backfired horribly considering the Eldar now stand on the brink of extinction in M41 should Cadia fall.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
I really, really wish the Alpha Legion would just return to their old Index Astartes background. The Cabal never made sense, and merely makes Alpharius (and/or Omegon) look slowed and incapable of critical thinking.

Only if you assume they blindly went along with it.

Even entertaining the idea that the Cabal's council may have had truth to it is complete stupidity. They have no reason to tell the truth to Alpharius, not to mention if that was truly their plan, it backfired horribly considering the Eldar now stand on the brink of extinction in M41 should Cadia fall.

The Cabal aren't Eldar. There's like one Eldar Autarch in there. I don't see why it's compete stupidity. Information is power, it's at least worth considering it, and they aren't stupid, they wouldn't just follow it as given. We don't even know if they believe it, we don't know anything.

Er, the whole point is that the Alpha Legion DON'T believe the Cabal.

In fact, they've already spaced one of the Cabal members, and are working to their own purpose now - whatever that is.

I actually like that they're canonically memetic.
40K is a fiction of extremes, and I love what the Alpha Legion embodies.

TiamatRoar wrote:

 Shadowclaimer wrote:

Wasn't Alpharius told that in order for the Imperium to survive he had to join the traitors? If so that really justifies how during the Heresy why he acted "on Horus's side", but meanwhile was running his own sorties and missions that Horus didn't know/understand.

Alpharius eventually betrayed those guys who told him he had to join the traitors for the Imperium to survive (actually, NOT for the Imperium to survive. It was for Chaos to be destroyed, and humanity along with it).

So basically Alpharius right now is betraying EVERYONE. This continues in later stories where he's continually screwing with everyone, including himself.

Of course, given that many normal Alpha Legionaires can pose as Alpharius and so can his brother Omegon, who also doesn't seem to be seeing eye-to-eye with him, one possible explanation for this is all these incidents of Alpharius betraying everyone are because it's all different Alphariuses doing it.

Which actually would make sense, as the Alpha Legion is just as Tzeentchian as the Thousand Sons, and would likely be quite vulnerable to Tzeentchian corruption. Probably, the Alpha Legion has splintered into thousands of different groups, all working towards different agendas, and by the end of the Horus Heresy, you had seven different Alphariuses all trying to achieve dominance of the Alpha Legion. Meanwhile, the real Alpharius is killed by Omegon over the path that they're heading in, and Omegon creates the Grey Knights.

If people can like space furries, why can't they like "all according to plan" marines?

 ImAGeek wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Yeah. It's the Cabal who tell them. Although, we don't know if 1. The Cabal were actually telling the truth, or 2. The AL belive them. They might be following their own agenda. We don't really know the goal of Alpharius, and Omegons looks to be different too.

Oh god why

Except that was in Legion, the first modern fluff for the AL. So the meme hadn't been played out then.

Also, you can't exactly blame the writers for how far the readers take something. I find the portrayals of the AL in the FW and BL fiction to be fine, it's people on here and other sites that are annoying about them.

Serpent Beneath and Seventh Serpent spoilers.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:
then make them tzeenchian and make that part of the fluff. This ambiguous are they, arent they, who are they, they are everyone... thing doesn't facilitate anything other than to just be annoying and further the caricature stereotype

Wait so, if they were Tzeenchian that would be fine, but because they aren't it isn't? I mean I can understand not liking them but that seems a bit if a double standard. AL actually have goals, we just don't know them. Tzeench has really arbitrary goals or just likes to mess things up for no reason. He can't have an end goal purely because that end goal couldn't last, because he'd have to change it. AL have an end goal, that's undisclosed.

My assertion was that if they were tzeenchian then the level of misdirection and mysterious crap would make more sense. It would still be ridiculous but at least it would be justified as to why they were like that, and it would make sense. Right now thier fluff seems on the one hand suggests a semi omniscient force that knows what to do when to do it to affect the outcome in their favor (sounds very tzeenchy to me). on the other hand, if we took the level of misdirection and convolution seriously, then the only realistic state that the AL could be in would be a disconnected group of Cells both dormant and active all over the galaxy. I that was the case, and the alpha legionaries were fine with eschewing the normal trappings of traitor marines and CSM in the modern 40k setting, then they would be like modern terrorist organization who operate on a similar structure. This is a perfectly logical and acceptable conclusion in my opinion, however, the disorganized status would mean that there is no one controller or one man pulling all of the strings so everything lines up. They are just lucky and the collective situation presented by these independent actions lends to the illusion of coherency ( which also sounds very tzeenchy) Both of these scenarios justifies and give credence to the over inflates sense of “Just as planned” that the legion has in 40k.
Asking us to believe that the legion is independent, not aligned with chaos, omniscient, can be everywhere at ones, and despite the best efforts of their opponents, they can only lose battles, but not have their schemes foiled or over turned is just insulating as a player and a fan of the fluff. That line of logic leads the reader to believe that the Alpha legion is operating on its own terms, for an unknowable and unaligned goal that is only known to the absolute head of the legion. This leader has the ability to see far reaching schemes and coordinate dozens of complex plans at one time. Such to the extent of this individuals tactical, logistical and strategic genius that should they actually put their talents to a more lasting end could create an empire to rival and surpass that of everything but the old ones of ancient lore.
That is why I would be ok with them being tzeench and why that detail changes everything. It isn’t a double standard as much as an acceptable justification In the fluff.

Your second scenario is exactly the case though. Particularly in 40k. The AL are a disconnected group of cells doing their own thing. And in 30k, they're already starting to fracture into that.

Clearly this thread is a ploy by Alpha Legion to throw people off their scent.

 Wyzilla wrote:
I really, really wish the Alpha Legion would just return to their old Index Astartes background. The Cabal never made sense, and merely makes Alpharius (and/or Omegon) look slowed and incapable of critical thinking.

I thought it made him more considerate of a bigger picture. To me, Alpharius and his legion always looked like petty spies sneaking for the sake of looking clever. The Cabal line actually made me respect them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:
The Serpent Beneath, a short story in the Primarchs, which is excellent; Seventh Serpent, a Novella by Graham McNeill which is eh, they feature in Scars, and I think they're in a story in Seditions Gate which I don't have. And their section in Extermination. They also appear briefly in Unremembered Empire.

Thanks! Other than cameos, are any of those specifically AL stories?

Yep, Serpent Beneath and the Extermination stuff. Seventh Serpent has them as the antagonists. And the one in Seditions Gate is about them I assume. Scars they feature as antagonists fairly briefly and Unremembered Empire is basically a cameo.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Yep, Serpent Beneath and the Extermination stuff. Seventh Serpent has them as the antagonists. And the one in Seditions Gate is about them I assume. Scars they feature as antagonists fairly briefly and Unremembered Empire is basically a cameo.

Serpent Beneath looks to be a damn fine read. The others seem to be cameos or generic "red shirt" enemies who are there just to appear threatening and die. Is Extermination part of a larger volume? I'm having trouble finding it.

 Alpharius wrote:
Er, the whole point is that the Alpha Legion DON'T believe the Cabal.

In fact, they've already spaced one of the Cabal members, and are working to their own purpose now - whatever that is.

Doesn't that mean they've spent so much time with their convoluted plots they've basically forgotten why they were plotting the stuff in the first place? Would fit with their pre-Heresy disposition and their now apparent fall to Chaos. They already liked to overcomplicate things from the beginning.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Er, the whole point is that the Alpha Legion DON'T believe the Cabal.

In fact, they've already spaced one of the Cabal members, and are working to their own purpose now - whatever that is.

Doesn't that mean they've spent so much time with their convoluted plots they've basically forgotten why they were plotting the stuff in the first place? Would fit with their pre-Heresy disposition and their now apparent fall to Chaos. They already liked to overcomplicate things from the beginning.

I'd say it's likely they've schemed themselves into distant corners and forgotten their original purpose set forth when Alpharius and Omegon sided with Horus.

That said, they seem to still stick to dickering with both the Imperium and Chaos.

 Shidank wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Yep, Serpent Beneath and the Extermination stuff. Seventh Serpent has them as the antagonists. And the one in Seditions Gate is about them I assume. Scars they feature as antagonists fairly briefly and Unremembered Empire is basically a cameo.

Serpent Beneath looks to be a damn fine read. The others seem to be cameos or generic "red shirt" enemies who are there just to appear threatening and die. Is Extermination part of a larger volume? I'm having trouble finding it.

Yeah sorry, Extermination is the third FW HH book, and it has their coverage of the AL in it. Serpent Beneath is very good yeah


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shidank wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Er, the whole point is that the Alpha Legion DON'T believe the Cabal.

In fact, they've already spaced one of the Cabal members, and are working to their own purpose now - whatever that is.

Doesn't that mean they've spent so much time with their convoluted plots they've basically forgotten why they were plotting the stuff in the first place? Would fit with their pre-Heresy disposition and their now apparent fall to Chaos. They already liked to overcomplicate things from the beginning.

I'd say it's likely they've schemed themselves into distant corners and forgotten their original purpose set forth when Alpharius and Omegon sided with Horus.

That said, they seem to still stick to dickering with both the Imperium and Chaos.

I think everyone has forgotten their original purpose yeah, and they've just splintered into groups doing their own thing. It already seems to be starting in the 30k stuff. It's the trouble with a legion that values independence and free thinking, and their ways of warfare, deception, lies etc. probably quite easy to lose sight of an overall aim in a legion like that. Too clever for their own good I think.

 Shidank wrote:
I'd say it's likely they've schemed themselves into distant corners and forgotten their original purpose set forth when Alpharius and Omegon sided with Horus.

That said, they seem to still stick to dickering with both the Imperium and Chaos.

They seem to harass the Imperium a lot more often though. They're even helping Abbaddon with his 13th Black Crusade if I recall correctly. They also have mutations and such so I think it's more likely they've been wholly corrupted at this point and any notion of fighting for Imperium is probably self-delusion. Plus they like to use imperial battle cries such as "For the Emperor!" in a mocking and ironic fashion.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I think everyone has forgotten their original purpose yeah, and they've just splintered into groups doing their own thing. It already seems to be starting in the 30k stuff. It's the trouble with a legion that values independence and free thinking, and their ways of warfare, deception, lies etc. probably quite easy to lose sight of an overall aim in a legion like that. Too clever for their own good I think.

Yea that would make sense given their fluff. Plus they have two Primarchs. How does the Hydra decide what its goals are with that many heads?

Yeah with everyone pulling in different directions it's gonna splinter at some point. Alpharius and Omegon aren't even on the same page, let alone the rest of the legion haha.

 Shidank wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
The Serpent Beneath, a short story in the Primarchs, which is excellent; Seventh Serpent, a Novella by Graham McNeill which is eh, they feature in Scars, and I think they're in a story in Seditions Gate which I don't have. And their section in Extermination. They also appear briefly in Unremembered Empire.

Thanks! Other than cameos, are any of those specifically AL stories?

Nothing really happens in Sedition's Gate, some insight into what a Harrowing is. That's about it.

 Shidank wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Yep, Serpent Beneath and the Extermination stuff. Seventh Serpent has them as the antagonists. And the one in Seditions Gate is about them I assume. Scars they feature as antagonists fairly briefly and Unremembered Empire is basically a cameo.

Serpent Beneath looks to be a damn fine read. The others seem to be cameos or generic "red shirt" enemies who are there just to appear threatening and die. Is Extermination part of a larger volume? I'm having trouble finding it.

Serpent Beneath is the best 40k story.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Your second scenario is exactly the case though. Particularly in 40k. The AL are a disconnected group of cells doing their own thing. And in 30k, they're already starting to fracture into that.

I am totally cool with that, because it makes sense. my problem arises when assertions that the alpha legion are unified and there is a grand puppet master pulling all of the strings. Like alpherius is some sort of shadow emperor and is secretly controlling an empire of terrorist cells. Despite the fact that that might be the most bad ass sentence I have ever written, it is still absurd. and as far as motivation goes, the only real presented one is he does this because Guiliman said he couldn't or was bad at being a leader. which is just petulant.

 GKTiberius wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Your second scenario is exactly the case though. Particularly in 40k. The AL are a disconnected group of cells doing their own thing. And in 30k, they're already starting to fracture into that.

I am totally cool with that, because it makes sense. my problem arises when assertions that the alpha legion are unified and there is a grand puppet master pulling all of the strings. Like alpherius is some sort of shadow emperor and is secretly controlling an empire of terrorist cells. Despite the fact that that might be the most bad ass sentence I have ever written, it is still absurd. and as far as motivation goes, the only real presented one is he does this because Guiliman said he couldn't or was bad at being a leader. which is just petulant.

The Alpha Legion withdrew to the Galactic East during the HH, where they disappeared. One theory is that Alpharius/Omegon reigns over an Empire outside the range of the Astronomican further east than the Galactic East.