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I don't believe the game designers and many other parts of GW actually believe that they're targeting "miniature collectors" no matter what a clueless person in management is saying. It's also impossible for the people working at GW to be unaware of their competition and their products. I'm fairly certain there's a lot of wargamers involved, and people who have tried or even actively play the competitors games. This is realistic more than it is unlikely.

Majority of GW's customers do not just collect miniatures, they play. It's quite obvious and aside from someone as ignorant as Kirby, everyone aware of it by default.

An official statement is an official statement, and nothing more. I think folks who now think GW will not be publishing any more rules or updating them and instead only releasing miniatures are quite sorely mistaken.

A question:

Why is an official statement of not doing market research taken as gospel, while an official statement of the company having negative profitability due to investments is agreed to be bullgak? While the way both these examples are generally received do make sense, it's still paradoxical and quite much so.

GW isn't one person and doesn't share one persons views, opinions, actions and ways to go about things in their head, even if they cannot publicly display that. Their work is not directly affected by the statements of upper management - the people designing new codices for example might easily take inspiration from another wargame and do their best to write balanced rules for the players of warhammer 40,000 rather than "miniature collectors" no matter what a chairman has said. Or does someone imagine Kirby busting into the rules design studio at regular intervals to make sure the new Blood Angels codex has nothing to do with gaming but instead the collecting of miniatures on a serious level?

 RunicFIN wrote:
Majority of GW's customers do not just collect miniatures, they play.

While I don't disagree GW need to improve their game, I don't think there's any way of proving your statement that the majority of GW customers play. I could totally believe there's as many or more GW customers who buy armies they don't play with or indeed that more money is spent on models that aren't gamed with or maybe only see 1 or 2 games than money is spent on models that actually see a table.

There's probably tons of people who buy GW miniatures and intend to play with them but instead proceed to playing once a year ( and still talk on the forums like they actively play and have any concretical, credible experience on the games at that ) That is quite common. I find it quite rare for someone to have no intention whatsoever to play and buy armies and armies of GW miniatures.

Personally I've noticed a clear shift in how GW does things, for the better. The new codices aside from the Necron Wraith ****up have been quite balanced against eachother, and updated at a pace never seen before. Free rules for units are back, and an army can once again receive something new between codices like in the older days. I hope their new CEO will atleast point the ship in the right direction.

The rules and balance are still badly written and the game almost requires you to hire an accountant, if they can fix that in within the next few years then that would be quite cool. Someone said before they feel they started the hobby at a bad time - I think this is one of the best times to start the hobby when it comes to 40K atleast. Also some cool releases rumoured to be coming up.

 RunicFIN wrote:
I don't believe the game designers and many other parts of GW actually believe that they're targeting "miniature collectors" no matter what a clueless person in management is saying. It's also impossible for the people working at GW to be unaware of their competition and their products. I'm fairly certain there's a lot of wargamers involved, and people who have tried or even actively play the competitors games.

One of the pieces of evidence Rick cited as showing GW has moved to a collector-focused stance, was the Chapterhouse case.

of course, in that context, GW would say that, wouldn't they?

They wanted to assert theirs were unique, collectable pieces of art that people collected. Because that helped their case. If someone had ripped off their rules, rather than their models, they'd be arguing the opposite.

Yeah, it's pretty common to underline the value of the very thing you are "defending" in court when it comes to a copyright claim rather than something else. Infact it's blatantly obvious.

Regarding that, GW acted way too harsh afaic and could've settled the matter better. They lost quite a bit of face but atleast that's settled now. I understand both sides. According to laws in the US and many other countries a creator might lose their "hold" on their IP and have it loosened if they do not fight for it furiously. It is basically required.

I agree with RunicFIN

 Azreal13 wrote:
Just to offer a third party perspective, the "indoctrination" jab seemed to clearly be good natured teasing. If you choose to take it as an insult, well, that's on you...

i did say no worries, accepted the apology, and made it clear i have no hard feelings...

is it wrong to want to make it clear that i am not a blind follower???
i don't use Citadel paints (i use P3), buy every single mini or box released, anything Finecast, the limited edition Codex that comes out for each army, the dice, the cards, LE Black Library novellas, or any of the other collector's items that are GW's big focus right now...

like i said before, i fall on the side that says GW has always been a gaming company, and am sad to see so many players feeling marginalized by the road GW has chosen to take over the last few years...
a happy player base makes for more potential commission clients for me...
i don't want to see the games die...
i enjoy getting paid to paint Space Marines...

cheers
jah

 the clone wrote:
I agree with RunicFIN

I might agree with him more if the person in charge of defending GW's IP knew what the Hell he was doing.

Merrett did not know the difference between Copyright and Trademark.

You do not need to defend Copyright.

And, sorry, but most of their claims against Chapterhouse were specious - they did not own a claim to what they were defending.

They were not trying to defend their IP, they were trying to force a competitor out of business.

Worse, going by the laws of the UK - they own even less of their IP than what they were left with at the end of the farce that they had created. (As toys... they are long out of legal protection.)

Remember - the Chapterhouse case was supposed to be the first of many - instead GW spent more than what the entirety of Chapterhouse was worth, and lost most of their claims - after removing a majority even before trial began..

If Chapterhouse had the resources to last through the appeals, GW would have lost most of the remainder.

There is a difference between a guard dog and a rabid Chihuahua - GW was much closer to the latter.

The Auld Grump, small, vicious beyond it's ability to fight, and toxic....

Its strange. About a year or so, GWs homepage was changed.
One menue button was Gaming. It has been replaced by Painting and Collecting. In German Malen und Basteln instead of Spielen.

I noticed that to, the gaming page used to be quite good (not saying the painting and modelling isn't good) but even though i do consider myself more of a collector ii still feel gaming is the most important part of 40k

 wuestenfux wrote:
Its strange. About a year or so, GWs homepage was changed.
One menue button was Gaming. It has been replaced by Painting and Collecting. In German Malen und Basteln instead of Spielen.

They been spooked.

This whole re-branding thing is almost entirely motivated by irrational fear, in my view at least. This is highly ironic, but perfectly understandable. People who mistreat others expect to be mistreated. GW management is looking at the writing on the wall and is terrified that someone is going to exploit what they themselves perceive to be a weak position.

Now, GW is in a vulnerable position at the moment, but that's not what this re-branding is about. It isn't about redressing a declining customer base and a toxic brand. GW is frantically trying to shore up its "intellectual property," and is going about it in ways that are actually devaluing the company's intellectual property rather than protecting it.

weeble1000 wrote:

Now, GW is in a vulnerable position at the moment, but that's not what this re-branding is about. It isn't about redressing a declining customer base and a toxic brand. GW is frantically trying to shore up its "intellectual property," and is going about it in ways that are actually devaluing the company's intellectual property rather than protecting it.

Well, technically, if you raise it to the ground and make it so worthless nobody will care about it, you have protected it, in some perverted way.

I guess.

I assume now they've pushing the 'collectors' angle so hard in the CHS case so they can hold design rights on their models, it would look mighty odd for them to argue they're a games company if someone starts to tread on their rules publications. How much can someone flip flop in courts before it raises questions about what they really are?

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
I assume now they've pushing the 'collectors' angle so hard in the CHS case so they can hold design rights on their models, it would look mighty odd for them to argue they're a games company if someone starts to tread on their rules publications. How much can someone flip flop in courts before it raises questions about what they really are?

If they do push themselves as "collectible models" rather than gaming pieces, how would this affect the secondary bits makers in the future? Would they still be able to make and sell optional or alternative parts for GW models?

 RunicFIN wrote:
There's probably tons of people who buy GW miniatures and intend to play with them but instead proceed to playing once a year ( and still talk on the forums like they actively play and have any concretical, credible experience on the games at that ) That is quite common. I find it quite rare for someone to have no intention whatsoever to play and buy armies and armies of GW miniatures.

I don't really consider people who buy models with only a slight intention of playing but never actually play with them as "gamers". They are closer to collectors than players in GW's eyes.

But either way, you say you find it quite rare but have you actually polled anyone? There's heaps of people who walk in to the store and buy stuff and then walk out and you never encounter again, it's very hard to say with any confidence what they are doing with their models. Obviously the people who hang around to play games and chat about the games are the types more likely to be playing the game, the people who aren't playing the game aren't likely to be the ones you actually directly engage with.

After seeing the new bloodthirster I demand that Games Workshop do whatever it takes to preserve their current design methods. Gone are the days of Wraithknights and Maulerfiends! I'd rather have good models and a bad game than vice-versa at this point seeing as how house rules and previous editions are a thing. But yeah, outsourcing the rules to FFG is something I'd be on board with.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
I assume now they've pushing the 'collectors' angle so hard in the CHS case so they can hold design rights on their models, it would look mighty odd for them to argue they're a games company if someone starts to tread on their rules publications. How much can someone flip flop in courts before it raises questions about what they really are?

Just to clarify a technical point: GW wants to have copyright to its models. Design right is the thing GW doesn't want, because it provides far less protection and most of GW's miniatures, especially the Space Marines, would be beyond protection at this point.

I can't believe people are still using the tired argument that GW has more revenue than any of their competitors. Would you rather have a company that has a $1 billion annual revenue but posts a 10% loss or a company that has a $100 million annual revenue at 10% profit and growth increasing yearly? Being the largest company ever to go bankrupt isn't exactly an accomplishment. The TTWG market has grown by leaps and bounds while GW has continued to shrink year on year since the end of LOTR boom. If you can't see why that's a bad thing, and that their revenue compared to PP is essentially meaningless when PP is growing and GW is shrinking (and 12-18 months from operating in the red at the current pace), you might have a white suit of armor with a GW logo on it in your closet...

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:
There's probably tons of people who buy GW miniatures and intend to play with them but instead proceed to playing once a year ( and still talk on the forums like they actively play and have any concretical, credible experience on the games at that ) That is quite common. I find it quite rare for someone to have no intention whatsoever to play and buy armies and armies of GW miniatures.

I don't really consider people who buy models with only a slight intention of playing but never actually play with them as "gamers". They are closer to collectors than players in GW's eyes.

I don't think that's a good definition of gamer Vs collector. I think a fairer one is "do the rules factor into the purchase?" i.e. would the purchase still be made if there were no rules? If yes, then collector, if no, then gamer.


I buy and fit out my units mostly for their game ability, but I haven't played a game of 40K in ~2 years, does that make me a collector now?

One thing i do not get is that if they are saying they are trying to attract the collector why do they still have the out of date assault space marine set? i have bout 3 of them and they really need a re vamp

 the clone wrote:
One thing i do not get is that if they are saying they are trying to attract the collector why do they still have the out of date assault space marine set? i have bout 3 of them and they really need a re vamp

The same reason they still have the out of date anything. They're trying to expand their range and update it at the same time. The going is slow.

Herzlos wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:
There's probably tons of people who buy GW miniatures and intend to play with them but instead proceed to playing once a year ( and still talk on the forums like they actively play and have any concretical, credible experience on the games at that ) That is quite common. I find it quite rare for someone to have no intention whatsoever to play and buy armies and armies of GW miniatures.

I don't really consider people who buy models with only a slight intention of playing but never actually play with them as "gamers". They are closer to collectors than players in GW's eyes.

I don't think that's a good definition of gamer Vs collector. I think a fairer one is "do the rules factor into the purchase?" i.e. would the purchase still be made if there were no rules? If yes, then collector, if no, then gamer.


I buy and fit out my units mostly for their game ability, but I haven't played a game of 40K in ~2 years, does that make me a collector now?

I buy stuff for my army because of the rules, I also buy stuff just to paint because I like painting, what am I? What am I?! I'm a monster! Don't look at me! The bells! The bells! And so on.

 Quarterdime wrote:

 the clone wrote:
One thing i do not get is that if they are saying they are trying to attract the collector why do they still have the out of date assault space marine set? i have bout 3 of them and they really need a re vamp

The same reason they still have the out of date anything. They're trying to expand their range and update it at the same time. The going is slow.

They seem to have a lot of stuff on hold, being trickled out when a release wave comes along.
That'd explain why the 'C' mark on the Harlequin Death Jester is dated 2013.

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Quarterdime wrote:

 the clone wrote:
One thing i do not get is that if they are saying they are trying to attract the collector why do they still have the out of date assault space marine set? i have bout 3 of them and they really need a re vamp

The same reason they still have the out of date anything. They're trying to expand their range and update it at the same time. The going is slow.

They seem to have a lot of stuff on hold, being trickled out when a release wave comes along.
That'd explain why the 'C' mark on the Harlequin Death Jester is dated 2013.

2 years? Do you really think they had it lying around for that long just so that they could release it once they found some reason to? I certainly hope that isn't the case, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me.

 Quarterdime wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Quarterdime wrote:

 the clone wrote:
One thing i do not get is that if they are saying they are trying to attract the collector why do they still have the out of date assault space marine set? i have bout 3 of them and they really need a re vamp

The same reason they still have the out of date anything. They're trying to expand their range and update it at the same time. The going is slow.

They seem to have a lot of stuff on hold, being trickled out when a release wave comes along.
That'd explain why the 'C' mark on the Harlequin Death Jester is dated 2013.

2 years? Do you really think they had it lying around for that long just so that they could release it once they found some reason to? I certainly hope that isn't the case, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me.

Things are sometimes developed 18 months before releasing, sometimes longer, it's very plausible. Especially as we have no way of knowing what goes on in the "who decides what's released and when department"

What I can not believe I have seen in this thread are the GW white knight's, sorry, GWombies actually insulting Rick Priestley. Do you people even know whom this man is? He is the man whom founded Warhammer and Warhammer40K . He is the one whom invented this wonderful universe that you love. He is one of the major influential people responsible for the blooming of the modern TTWG culture that we have today. He is one of the reasons that you have WHFB, 40K, Bolt Action, Warmachine and Hordes and all the other games that have sprung up in recent years.
He is not just some has been griping about the good old days, he is the one of the founding fathers of GW and he has more right to comment on GW's self destructive methods than any of us.

On the subject of GWombies, a good friend of mine whom is also my regular opponent is showing GWombie behaviour, although not to such an extent as some. He only plays 40K and refuses to get into anything else (I am trying though) and he has a huge SM army (over 1.5 companies worth plus supporting elements at the last count). He is also aiming at purchasing all the Primarchs (He currently has 5), three Reaver class Titans and several super heavy tanks. However he does complain about the prices and he does think they are a bit much for what you get (He buys at a 10% discount from our FLGS).
That said he plays SM's and is constantly trying to get me to take less (preferably no) tanks in my IG. I think (and this is just a theory based on playing against him) that he refuses to play anything else because his grasp of tactics is not enough for him to have much of a chance without the IWIN button the SM's provide (And even then he takes huge losses - a reinforced company against a platoon of IG (dont ask - it was an agreement for a small fair game and he brought almost everything he had) and he took over 25% casualties despite deep striking in and negating my long range fire). Whilst I am trying to get him into these more tactically in-depth games it is difficult and first I am working on basic tactics. However, one of the things I have noticed is that his excuse for not wanting to start a new game is the cost. Despite the cost of GW products he seems to have some in-built fear of leaving them, some belief that all games cost huge amounts to start up (My explanation that for the cost of one Primarch you could get a Warmahordes or Darkage starter box and a few blisters to go with them is apparently lost). This seems to be what GW is trying to drill into there customers.

Anyway, I got out of 40K and I only play because my friend does. And even then I use third party miniatures these days. After all, why pay £36.50 for a tnk when I can get one that looks far better for £18? Or a platoon of 25 Infantry for £24.00? Or a Heavy weapons squad and two officers for £17.00?

 Quarterdime wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Quarterdime wrote:

 the clone wrote:
One thing i do not get is that if they are saying they are trying to attract the collector why do they still have the out of date assault space marine set? i have bout 3 of them and they really need a re vamp

The same reason they still have the out of date anything. They're trying to expand their range and update it at the same time. The going is slow.

They seem to have a lot of stuff on hold, being trickled out when a release wave comes along.
That'd explain why the 'C' mark on the Harlequin Death Jester is dated 2013.

2 years? Do you really think they had it lying around for that long just so that they could release it once they found some reason to? I certainly hope that isn't the case, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me.

I expect that a person, or group of people, is tasked with getting a range of models created or updated. The codex gets written sometime around the same time, either beforehand or afterwards.
Then, when they're finished, the range gets slotted into the release schedule.
That process might take years, are projects get put aside or rushed through.
This would explain why, before the Chapterhouse thing happened, an army might be 5+ years between codex updates. Now though, they're releasing a codex every couple of months.

Seriously, folks, can we stop with the cute nametags for people with a different opinion to your own?

 master of ordinance wrote:
What I can not believe I have seen in this thread are the GW white knight's, sorry, GWombies actually insulting Rick Priestley. Do you people even know whom this man is? He is the man whom founded Warhammer and Warhammer40K . He is the one whom invented this wonderful universe that you love. He is one of the major influential people responsible for the blooming of the modern TTWG culture that we have today. He is one of the reasons that you have WHFB, 40K, Bolt Action, Warmachine and Hordes and all the other games that have sprung up in recent years.
He is not just some has been griping about the good old days, he is the one of the founding fathers of GW and he has more right to comment on GW's self destructive methods than any of us.

On the subject of GWombies, a good friend of mine whom is also my regular opponent is showing GWombie behaviour, although not to such an extent as some. He only plays 40K and refuses to get into anything else (I am trying though) and he has a huge SM army (over 1.5 companies worth plus supporting elements at the last count). He is also aiming at purchasing all the Primarchs (He currently has 5), three Reaver class Titans and several super heavy tanks. However he does complain about the prices and he does think they are a bit much for what you get (He buys at a 10% discount from our FLGS).
That said he plays SM's and is constantly trying to get me to take less (preferably no) tanks in my IG. I think (and this is just a theory based on playing against him) that he refuses to play anything else because his grasp of tactics is not enough for him to have much of a chance without the IWIN button the SM's provide (And even then he takes huge losses - a reinforced company against a platoon of IG (dont ask - it was an agreement for a small fair game and he brought almost everything he had) and he took over 25% casualties despite deep striking in and negating my long range fire). Whilst I am trying to get him into these more tactically in-depth games it is difficult and first I am working on basic tactics. However, one of the things I have noticed is that his excuse for not wanting to start a new game is the cost. Despite the cost of GW products he seems to have some in-built fear of leaving them, some belief that all games cost huge amounts to start up (My explanation that for the cost of one Primarch you could get a Warmahordes or Darkage starter box and a few blisters to go with them is apparently lost). This seems to be what GW is trying to drill into there customers.

Anyway, I got out of 40K and I only play because my friend does. And even then I use third party miniatures these days. After all, why pay £36.50 for a tnk when I can get one that looks far better for £18? Or a platoon of 25 Infantry for £24.00? Or a Heavy weapons squad and two officers for £17.00?

How dare he enjoy playing and collecting Space Marines. What arrogance! And the fact he does not buy the miniatures that you find more esthetically pleasing! I am appalled.

'GWombies'. Oh dear.