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 Manchu wrote:
Good point, that was what the scene was supposed to tell us. This is the point where Luke resolves to go fight in contrast to his earlier statement that he hates the Empire (like everyone) but can't do anything about it.

Agreed.

I think it's pretty clear that in the context of Star Wars films, the Empire is Evil and the Rebellion is Good. I mean, the movies are a modern fable or fairytale, and those types of stories have a pretty clear good/evil dynamic to them.

Yeah, guys like Piett don't really have an opportunity for moral decisions in the movies. I mean, I guess he could have objected to Vader murdering Ozzell but him keeping quiet just then was eminently reasonable. OTOH, there's a room full of Imperial brass in ANH and nobody there pipes up in opposition to blowing up entire planets either as a concept or as a practice. Similarly, nobody on the Death Star is seen to refuse the order to murder all those Alderaaneans.

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
Before the destruction of Alderaan, we're treated to the cold blooded murders of Owen and Beru Lars (and the Jawas before them) for no other reason than being casually associated with rebel assets.

That's what settled the Empire as "evil" for me. It is not some stylized, space-operatic act of evil, but a low, dirty, all too human one. The kind of act we've seen commited by terrorist groups, death squads and occupying armies throughout our history.

But this is like taking one example of real-world police brutality in the US and claiming that the whole US government is evil. And we never get an opportunity to see what the rebellion would do in similar situations. Would they take the moral high ground and leave witnesses alive because murdering them would be wrong, or would they be just as ruthless as the Empire but for a different side? How many innocents died along with the Bothan spies who stole the death star plans? Did the rebels feel much guilt over sending Ewoks armed with bows and spears to be slaughtered as a distraction? Etc.

 Manchu wrote:
Good point, that was what the scene was supposed to tell us. This is the point where Luke resolves to go fight in contrast to his earlier statement that he hates the Empire (like everyone) but can't do anything about it.

True, but it doesn't really show that the Empire was exceptionally evil. Luke doesn't decide to join the rebellion over an abstract philosophical debate about the use of military force, he joins to get revenge on the people who hurt him. You could just as easily have a scene of a TIE pilot joining the Empire to avenge the loss of her parents, who were civilian employees on the first death star.

 Peregrine wrote:
Luke doesn't decide to join the rebellion over an abstract philosophical debate about the use of military force, he joins to get revenge on the people who hurt him.

I think Luke's feelings at that point have a lot more to do with justice than revenge (they are different). Remember Luke has already said he abstractly hates the Empire (like everyone). Wonder why? The Empire's brutality is no secret. But it isn't real for Luke until he finds his adoptive parents' charred corpses.

 Peregrine wrote:
You could just as easily have a scene of a TIE pilot joining the Empire to avenge the loss of her parents, who were civilian employees on the first death star.

Disagree. Said TIE pilot would need to deal with the fact that her parents were complicit with/materially contributed to mass murder on an unimaginable scale. And if these hypothetical parents were forced to be their by the Empire then all the less reason to be angry at the Rebellion.

 Manchu wrote:
I think Luke's feelings at that point have a lot more to do with justice than revenge (they are different).

Not really. Note what he says: "there's nothing left for me now", not "now I get it, the Empire really is evil". His family is dead, his old life is destroyed, so now he might as well go kill the people who hurt him.

Remember Luke has already said he abstractly hates the Empire (like everyone). Wonder why?

Because he's a whiny teenager carrying on the whiny teenager tradition of complaining about how much the government sucks? "The Empire is so evil, I'd love to go fight against it just as soon as I finish all of my chores and go join the Imperial Academy to complete my dream of being a starship pilot". Even when he gets the droids and suddenly gets the opportunity to do something to fight back against the evil government he's more concerned about his uncle being mad about him wasting time or losing an expensive piece of farm equipment.

Disagree. Said TIE pilot would need to deal with the fact that her parents were complicit with/materially contributed to mass murder on an unimaginable scale. And if these hypothetical parents were forced to be their by the Empire then all the less reason to be angry at the Rebellion.

Why? Luke didn't answer any moral questions in his quest for vengeance. Sure, his family was innocent (except for that pesky little detail of hiding Luke from the Empire), but he sure didn't seem to have any problems about hiring a space-mafia drug smuggler when it was convenient. So why should the hypothetical TIE pilot have to answer a bunch of tough questions before being blinded with rage and going off to kill the people who hurt her?

 Peregrine wrote:

The Empire enslaves non humans (note this is the reason they walk around Death Star with Chewie)

Slavery was legal under the previous government as well. Remember how Anakin was a slave before he became Vader? Also, Chewbacca was disguised as a prisoner on the death star, not a slave.

Actually not true... Yes, Anakin/ mom were slaves on Tatooine in Ep.1, however they do make the remark/question (was is Padme who asks about slavery?) that while Slavery is outlawed in the Republic, Tatooine is, for all intents and purposes, NOT in the republic. I think that, at best you could consider them independent, at "worst" part of a galactic "Hutt Empire" if such a thing were to exist.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Actually not true... Yes, Anakin/ mom were slaves on Tatooine in Ep.1, however they do make the remark/question (was is Padme who asks about slavery?) that while Slavery is outlawed in the Republic, Tatooine is, for all intents and purposes, NOT in the republic. I think that, at best you could consider them independent, at "worst" part of a galactic "Hutt Empire" if such a thing were to exist.

It might be illegal on paper, but the Republic doesn't make any effort to get rid of it. Where's the Republic fleet arriving in orbit with orders to liberate the oppressed victims of the Hutt criminals? There isn't one, because nobody cares.

 Peregrine wrote:
Not really. Note what he says: "there's nothing left for me now", not "now I get it, the Empire really is evil". His family is dead, his old life is destroyed, so now he might as well go kill the people who hurt him.

The line cited in no way supports your conclusion. You also forgot the rest of the line: "I want to learn the ways of the Force and become a Jedi, like my father." .. harkening back to Ben's line "... before the dark times, before the Empire."

 Peregrine wrote:
Luke didn't answer any moral questions in his quest for vengeance.

Luke didn't go on a quest for vengeance.

You have fundamentally misunderstood the character and the plot of the movie. But that does explain your TIE pilot analogy. If all the TIE pilot cares about is vengeance, then we have a great story about the dark side. Perfect for an Imperial character.

 Manchu wrote:
The line cited in no way supports your conclusion. You also forgot the rest of the line: "I want to learn the ways of the Force and become a Jedi, like my father." .. harkening back to Ben's line "... before the dark times, before the Empire."

Now pay attention to the anger and pain in his voice as he says it. He doesn't want to become a jedi because he suddenly realized that the jedi ideology is superior to the sith, he wants to become a jedi because he's desperately clinging to the myth of his father as his last remaining family.

You have fundamentally misunderstood the character and the plot of the movie.

No, that would be you. It's pretty clear that Luke is NOT a perfect jedi hero at first. That's the whole point of the cave scene when he's training with Yoda, he still has too much anger and wants to use the force as a weapon and he's vulnerable to falling to the dark side. He doesn't set aside that personal anger and become a noble jedi hero until much later in the story.

But that does explain your TIE pilot analogy. If all the TIE pilot cares about is vengeance, then we have a great story about the dark side. Perfect for an Imperial character.

Except the whole dark side vs. light side thing only applies to jedi vs. sith, not our hypothetical TIE pilot. Nor is it as straightforward as Empire = dark, rebels = light. Remember that one of the heroes of the rebellion is a space-mafia drug smuggler who never has to answer for all the crimes he committed before joining the rebellion. Who cares how many people had their lives destroyed by the drugs Han was carrying, now he's shooting the right people so he's a hero!

Ben told Luke his father was murdered. His father therefore cannot be, as you suggest, Luke's "last remaining family" (and I don't think you can back up your myth angle, either). The scene in question is set up with Ben talking to Luke about the wider world. When Luke sees the corpses of Owen and Beru and their burnt out farm, he decides to step into that wider world. Just as Ben says. There is no hint then or ever after that Luke is motivated by a desire to get revenge on the Empire for murdering his adoptive parents and destroying his childhood home. You have 100% made that up and it demonstrates that you do not understand the movies.

I did not argue that Luke was a perfect Jedi hero at first. I only argued that Luke did not set out on a quest to get revenge. Are you trying to get through a lifetime supply of hay or something? Seriously, you are the king of strawman arguments.

The dark and light sides of the Force apply to the whole SW setting, not just Jedi and Sith. This is the point of Han's character arc, as set up by his verbal sparring with Obi-Wan en route to Alderaan. Han walks away from a life motivated by greed and moral indifference.

 Manchu wrote:
Ben told Luke his father was murdered. His father therefore cannot be, as you suggest, Luke's "last remaining family" (and I don't think you can back up your myth angle, either).

That's why I said the myth of his father, not his living father. The only life Luke has ever known has just been destroyed, so what can he find to replace it? The idealized myth of his father. He doesn't really know anything about the larger jedi vs. sith conflict, he just knows that his father was some kind of noble hero. So he can't possibly be making an ideological decision to join the light side.

The scene in question is set up with Ben talking to Luke about the wider world. When Luke sees the corpses of Owen and Beru and their burnt out farm, he decides to step into that wider world. Just as Ben says. There is no hint then or ever after that Luke is motivated by a desire to get revenge on the Empire for murdering his adoptive parents and destroying his childhood home. You have 100% made that up and it demonstrates that you do not understand the movies.

Did you really watch the same movie as the rest of us? Luke might not have been screaming "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD" as he slaughtered every stormtrooper in his path, but his reaction immediately following the shot of his murdered family is very clearly anger and grief. And later we see Luke struggling with anger issues and having to learn control before he can become a jedi. What exactly is the purpose of the cave scene in ESB if he's not giving in to his desire for vengeance on Vader?

I did not argue that Luke was a perfect Jedi hero at first. I only argued that Luke did not set out on a quest to get revenge. Are you trying to get through a lifetime supply of hay or something? Seriously, you are the king of strawman arguments.

That's exactly what you argued. Maybe "perfect" is exaggerating a bit, but you very clearly argued that Luke was already a jedi hero. In your version he's motivated by a noble desire to fight injustice, which is the ideal he's supposed to meet later in the story. The only way to make his fight with the dark side work is if Luke is initially motivated by personal reasons (grief, anger, etc), struggles to overcome his emotional investment in the fight and the lure of easy vengeance with the dark side, and doesn't reach enlightenment until the final moments of the fight in ROTJ.

The dark and light sides of the Force apply to the whole SW setting, not just Jedi and Sith. This is the point of Han's character arc, as set up by his verbal sparring with Obi-Wan en route to Alderaan. Han walks away from a life motivated by greed and moral indifference.

But that isn't light vs. dark. Remember that whole "knowledge and defense, never for attack" thing? Light vs. dark is not just good vs. evil or heroes vs. villains. Han walks away from a life of crime and joins the army, but there's no suggestion at all that he gives up on things like shooting first when he has to or embraces the jedi ideology of complete emotional detachment and rejection of love. The ending of ROTJ with Han and Leia becoming a couple pretty clearly demonstrates that Han is not following the path of the light side.

 Peregrine wrote:
It might be illegal on paper, but the Republic doesn't make any effort to get rid of it. Where's the Republic fleet arriving in orbit with orders to liberate the oppressed victims of the Hutt criminals? There isn't one, because nobody cares.

Or, just as in real life, they can't go fighting every outlier that isn't part of the Republic to force them to join. Tatooine is not part of the Republic, and they aren't the only one, and neither is the Hutt Syndicate, which actually is quite powerful and ancient. It isn't that people don't care, it is that there isn't much that can be done. I see you posting here and not off fighting to free every slave either, which I guess means you don't care either.

 Peregrine wrote:
What exactly is the purpose of the cave scene in ESB if he's not giving in to his desire for vengeance on Vader?

I'm glad you asked as this is clearly the fulcrum of your confusion.

Ben told Luke that Vader is an evil murderer and Luke's own experiences soon confirm this. At this point in Luke's life, good and evil are very simple and clear. Luke's reaction to the specter of vader in the cave is therefore completely reasonable. Being good is about fighting bad, simple as that. His whole worldview is therefore challenged when the mask explodes, revealing Luke's own face beneath. What if there is good inside of what appears to be evil? He puts this question on the back burner to save his friends but ends up confronting Vader who spills the beans about being his dad. Unable to deal with this, Luke attempts suicide (although, importantly, not a suicidal attack on Vader motivated by hateful revenge). By RotJ, Luke has begun to make sense out of his vision on the cave and his feelings about his father. Despite the protests of Obi-Wan and Yoda, who insist that Vader is evil and that Luke must kill him (i.e., how Luke behaved toward the specter of Vader in the cave), Luke ultimately puts his faith CORRECTLY in his father's remaining goodness.

It is precisely because Luke is not motivated by revenge that all of this unfolds.

In his own way, Han "turns to the light side" throughout the OT. It has nothing to do with him becoming a Jedi or whatever you are arguing. Also, that whole Jedi detachment BS is not the light side. It's the arrogant myopia of the dying Jedi Order and the reason they lost their connection to the Force.

A fine post in the grand internet tradition of judging something before its released.

 Manchu wrote:
Ben told Luke that Vader is an evil murderer and Luke's own experiences soon confirm this. At this point in Luke's life, good and evil are very simple and clear.

Sure, and they're largely related to who has personally hurt him. The stores of how evil the Empire is can't even motivate him to care more about the message in R2-D2 than his uncle being mad at him for losing a piece of valuable farm equipment, but once the Empire hurts him personally it's time to fight. When Obi-Wan is killed on the death star Luke immediately goes into a screaming rage and starts wildly blasting everything in sight. Those are the reactions of a person who is flailing back out of anger and grief, not someone making a calm and rational decision that the jedi religion is better than the Empire.

Being good is about fighting bad, simple as that. His whole worldview is therefore challenged when the mask explodes, revealing Luke's own face beneath. What if there is good inside of what appears to be evil?

I don't think that's the message at all. The point was that if Luke tries to use the force as a weapon (whether to seek revenge or simply to kill evil) to fight Vader he risks becoming Vader. That's why it's Luke himself in the mask, and that's why Yoda is disappointed at Luke's failure instead of being satisfied that Luke got the message.

Unable to deal with this, Luke attempts suicide (although, importantly, not a suicidal attack on Vader motivated by hateful revenge).

It's not suicide IMO. He drops right into a convenient shaft that stops his fall without suffering even minor injuries, and Vader goes right to his shuttle to pursue Luke instead of assuming that he's dead. His decision to jump make a lot more sense as an attempt to escape and come back to fight another day.

And how exactly is Luke supposed to attack at that point? He has no weapon, and he's just suffered a serious and painful injury. Even people who are motivated entirely by revenge can understand that impaling themselves on their enemy's sword isn't going to accomplish anything.

Despite the protests of Obi-Wan and Yoda, who insist that Vader is evil and that Luke must kill him (i.e., how Luke behaved toward the specter of Vader in the cave), Luke ultimately puts his faith CORRECTLY in his father's remaining goodness.

I disagree. Pay close attention to what Yoda says: Luke must confront Vader, not Luke must kill Vader. Vader and the emperor are already going to die, and they're certainly going to die if Luke's presence doesn't alert Vader that the shuttle is suspicious and an attack is about to happen. And even if they don't die at Endor a military attack on Vader's fleet probably has a better chance of success than sending a barely-trained Luke against a veteran of lots of lightsaber duels.

The actual point of sending Luke is that he has to resolve his unfinished business before he can pass the last test and become a jedi instead of just a random guy with a lightsaber and some force powers. He doesn't become a jedi until the final moment of the duel with Vader, when he looks at his own robot hand next to his father's and realizes that he's just been trying to kill Vader out of hate and anger and becoming Vader. When he finally accepts that lesson and throws away his weapon he has passed the final test.

In his own way, Han "turns to the light side" throughout the OT. It has nothing to do with him becoming a Jedi or whatever you are arguing. Also, that whole Jedi detachment BS is not the light side. It's the arrogant myopia of the dying Jedi Order and the reason they lost their connection to the Force.

No, you're just missing the point here. Light vs. dark is a matter of rival religions, not just straightforward good vs. evil. That's why you can fall to the dark side despite having good intentions (and even good outcomes). Han becomes a good person in some ways, but he never accepts the jedi religion.

The people in here who think that a massive, galaxy spanning political and military organization is just going to roll over and play dead because of a serious military defeat and an assassination of it's dictator are delusional. Hell in the EU/Legends canon, the Empire Remanent in various forms was around 100YBY+. Warlords like Thrawn, Zsinj, Dalla and of course Ysanne Isard engaged in massive conflicts with the Rebel Alliance ne New Republic, and it was still made clear that they didn't have the full backing of large chunks of the Imperial Remnant.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
That ending is absolutely clear that the EMpire has fallen.

Which ending? The original ending that just shows the Alliance celebrating a victorious battle or the one created twenty years after the movie was originally released showing several worlds celebrating?


Not to mention that in the EU, the citizens of Coruscant were convinced that the Death Stars were REBEL creations, not Imperial, and that the Emperor died sacrificing himself to destroy the second one.

Y'know, If the mouse goes back to the original cut for their cannon, that is a good thing.

Han Shot First!

 Grey Templar wrote:
The Empire is most certainly a nation state.

Besides, the EU was a steaming pile of crap that needed to be tossed. Doesn't matter there were some Crunch bars in it, it all needed to go.

This, so much this.

There were some good bits, a few truly amazing bits, but most of it was complete garbage, and much of it doesn't make sense anyway in light of Eps 1-3 (however awful they were).

Kicking it out and starting over works for me. Same with Star Trek.

Cannot be worse than the train wreck that lucas made in the recent 3 movies. Unless they make into a musical like "into the woods"

Luke's initial reaction to Leia's message is the desire to learn more and help her. Later on, when Obi-Wan suddenly suggests that Luke accompany him to Alderaan, Luke the hayseed farmboy is naturally taken aback. The point is merely that Luke is reluctant to step into the wider world; it has nothing to do with the Empire not being sufficiently evil (which would be a severe misreading of the movie). When he finds out that the Empire has murdered Owen and Beru, Luke realizes that he has to get involved. There is no hint whatsoever throughout any of the movies that their murder has inspired Luke to seek revenge. That must be in the Peregrine Edition.

About the cave vision, Yoda tells Luke he will find inside whatever he brings with him. Yoda has already mentioned that anger, fear, and aggression lead to the dark side. Luke is experiencing all of these things as he struggles with his training. More than anything, he is afraid -- which is why he takes his weapons when Yoda says he will not need them. Unsurprisingly, Luke's fear manifests as Vader. The true horror, however, is not Vader's power but the bizarre vision of Luke's face behind Vader's mask.

Yoda says Luke failed at the cave. But Yoda's opinions are at best suspect. Even your argument that Ben and Yoda are on different pages, and Yoda means something less than kill by "confront," does not change the fact that Yoda was wrong about Luke and Vader. Luke did not fall to the dark side on Bespin. Trying to rescue his friends did not destroy everything they worked for. That's not even mentioning how Yoda bears a huge responsibility for the fall of the Republic, the demise of the Jedi Order, and the ascent of the Sith.

What was Luke supposed to learn at the cave? That the Force should not be used as a weapon? That's BS. A weapon is morally neutral. Hence lightsabers. Regardless of whatever Yoda wanted Luke to see, what Luke actually saw was the deep connection between him an Vader. But because he lacked the conscious knowledge to understand this, he could not truly grasp the meaning of the vision. Of course, Yoda could have helped out here. But instead he tried to frighten Luke with BS about destroying everything his friends had worked for.

Luke finally does understand his vision in the cave much later on, in the Emperor's throne room on the second Death Star, when he has overpowered his father through rage and is a moment away from murdering him. He sees the wires protruding from Vader's stump and the wires in his own wrist. In this moment, he not only realizes that he could fall to the dark side, as the Emperor wishes and hopes, but that his connection with his father means that there is still good in his father, which Obi-Wan explicitly denies earlier.

Light and darkness are not merely a matter of "religion" in the SW setting. In SW, reality has an objective moral dimension embodied by the Force.

P.S. -- Luke did not know he would fall into a shaft on Bespin and not to his death. The novelization from the time even explains this by saying Vader used the Force to guide Luke into the shaft and save him. And in the movie, Vader gets into the shuttle to return to his Star Destroyer. Even if he did not use the Force to save Luke as per the novelization, he definitely would be able to sense that Luke survives.

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
That ending is absolutely clear that the EMpire has fallen.

Which ending? The original ending that just shows the Alliance celebrating a victorious battle or the one created twenty years after the movie was originally released showing several worlds celebrating?


Not to mention that in the EU, the citizens of Coruscant were convinced that the Death Stars were REBEL creations, not Imperial, and that the Emperor died sacrificing himself to destroy the second one.

Y'know, If the mouse goes back to the original cut for their cannon, that is a good thing.

Han Shot First!

Unfortunately, that isn't likely going to happen.

20th Century Fox still owns distribution rights to the original films, as well as full rights of A New Hope, and of course there is Lucas' feelings on the matter... (spoiler alert: he's not a fan of the idea)

All the stars and planets in the universe would have to align before Fox, Disney, and Lucas would be able to agree with a way to release the original cuts of the first three movies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
Luke's initial reaction to Leia's message is the desire to learn more and help her. Later on, when Obi-Wan suddenly suggests that Luke accompany him to Alderaan, Luke the hayseed farmboy is naturally taken aback. The point is merely that Luke is reluctant to step into the wider world; it has nothing to do with the Empire not being sufficiently evil (which would be a severe misreading of the movie). When he finds out that the Empire has murdered Owen and Beru, Luke realizes that he has to get involved. There is no hint whatsoever throughout any of the movies that their murder has inspired Luke to seek revenge. That must be in the Peregrine Edition.

About the cave vision, Yoda tells Luke he will find inside whatever he brings with him. Yoda has already mentioned that anger, fear, and aggression lead to the dark side. Luke is experiencing all of these things as he struggles with his training. More than anything, he is afraid -- which is why he takes his weapons when Yoda says he will not need them. Unsurprisingly, Luke's fear manifests as Vader. The true horror, however, is not Vader's power but the bizarre vision of Luke's face behind Vader's mask.

Yoda says Luke failed at the cave. But Yoda's opinions are at best suspect. Even your argument that Ben and Yoda are on different pages, and Yoda means something less than kill by "confront," does not change the fact that Yoda was wrong about Luke and Vader. Luke did not fall to the dark side on Bespin. Trying to rescue his friends did not destroy everything they worked for. That's not even mentioning how Yoda bears a huge responsibility for the fall of the Republic, the demise of the Jedi Order, and the ascent of the Sith.

What was Luke supposed to learn at the cave? That the Force should not be used as a weapon? That's BS. A weapon is morally neutral. Hence lightsabers. Regardless of whatever Yoda wanted Luke to see, what Luke actually saw was the deep connection between him an Vader. But because he lacked the conscious knowledge to understand this, he could not truly grasp the meaning of the vision. Of course, Yoda could have helped out here. But instead he tried to frighten Luke with BS about destroying everything his friends had worked for.

Luke finally does understand his vision in the cave much later on, in the Emperor's throne room on the second Death Star, when he has overpowered his father through rage and is a moment away from murdering him. He see's the wires protruding from Vader's stump and the wires in his own wrist. In this moment, he not only realizes that he could fall to the dark side, as the Emperor wishes and hopes, but that his connection with his father means that there is still good in his father, which Obi-Wan explicitly denies earlier.

Light and darkness are not merely a matter of "religion" in the SW setting. In SW, reality has an objective moral dimension embodied by the Force.

P.S. -- Luke did not know he would fall into a shaft on Bespin and not to his death. The novelization from the time even explains this by saying Vader used the Force to guide Luke into the shaft and save him.

Very well said. That perfectly sums up Luke's arc in the Original Trilogy.

However, I cannot wait for Peregrine to pick this apart line by line and tell you how distressingly wrong you are on all accounts.

I grew up thinking of Yoda as the symbol of wisdom. Came as quite a shock when I figured out he's actually a total feth up.

Excellent points there, Manchu.

Light and darkness are not merely a matter of "religion" in the SW setting. In SW, reality has an objective moral dimension embodied by the Force.

I wouldn't say religions, but rather sides, organizations, cliques... you name it. Jedis were an elitist group of faith-based power brokers. The Republic was a corrupt, uncaring bureaucracy that plunged the entire galaxy in war for some petty nonsense over the taxation of trade routes. I even think Peregrine is right in some sense: Maybe the Empire is not so evil after all (I've just remembered the stormtroopers tried to cover up the attacks on the crawler and on the Lars' homestead - that alone hints that terror tactics weren't always in the Empire's agenda) and though it's not shown on screen, nothing tells us the Rebellion doesn't have a couple skeletons in its closet. None of the characters, groups and ideologies on this story are 100% free of blame. Not even Luke in the beginning, but he learns to be good over the course of the movies.

Morality, I think, is the real crux of Star Wars, even more than starship dogfights and seedy cantinas. Few EU works really get it, and that's why I prefer stories that walk around the Force mythos instead of expanding on it (and why I don't trust Abrams and his mates to put Star Wars' sometimes overburdening morals over the public's demands for badassitude).

 Manchu wrote:
Luke's initial reaction to Leia's message is the desire to learn more and help her.

Yeah, because she's hot and he's a 20-something year old man. That superficial desire is less important than his concern about his uncle being mad at him for wasting time or losing a valuable piece of farm equipment.

There is no hint whatsoever throughout any of the movies that their murder has inspired Luke to seek revenge.

I guess you missed the part where Luke is clearly angry about his family being murdered, and that anger combined with the realization that his entire life has just been destroyed is what motivates him to join Obi-Wan for more than taxi service to the nearest bus stop? Let's look at the novelization version, which makes it clear:

“I share your sorrow, Luke,” he finally ventured softly. “There was nothing you could have done. Had you been there, you’d be dead now, too, and the ’droids would be in the hands of the Imperials. Not even the force—”

“Damn your force!” Luke snarled with sudden violence. Now he turned and glared at Kenobi. There was a set to his jaw that belonged on a much older face.

“I’ll take you to the spaceport at Mos Eisley, Ben. I want to go with you—to Alderaan. There’s nothing left for me here now.” His eyes turned to look out across the desert, to focus on something beyond sand and rock and canyon walls. “I want to learn to be a Jedi, like my father. I want …” He paused, the words backing up like a logjam in his throat.

That's anger, not calm realization that the Empire is evil and fighting it is necessary.

The true horror, however, is not Vader's power but the bizarre vision of Luke's face behind Vader's mask.

Exactly. Luke sees himself in the mask of the person he hates and fears most. The message here is very obvious: Luke's current path (as represented by him taking his weapons with him and immediately trying to use them) is taking him dangerously close to the dark side. And if he gives in to his anger and uses the force as a weapon he will become Vader.

Yoda says Luke failed at the cave.

He doesn't just say it, he shows it. Remember the part where he slumps down in disappointment after Luke fails the test? Luke isn't around to watch it, so it can't be Yoda trying to manipulate him by pretending to be disappointed.

But Yoda's opinions are at best suspect. Even your argument that Ben and Yoda are on different pages, and Yoda means something less than kill by "confront," does not change the fact that Yoda was wrong about Luke and Vader. Luke did not fall to the dark side on Bespin. Trying to rescue his friends did not destroy everything they worked for.

No, Yoda was entirely correct about Luke going off to rescue his friends. He survived, but only by sheer luck. One failed grab at an antenna and Luke is dead. One slight difference in a lightsaber swing and Luke loses his head instead of his hand. Etc. The point was not that Luke was inevitably going to die or fall to the dark side, it was that leaving impulsively like that was dangerously irresponsible. Instead of worrying about the greater responsibilities of becoming a jedi Luke gave in to his emotions and ran off to go "help". He walked right into Vader's trap and barely escaped. If things go just slightly different Luke is dead or a prisoner and the last chance of restoring the jedi is gone.

This just proves what I was saying earlier: Luke is not looking at the big picture, he's looking at his friends vs. his enemies. His friends are good, so off he goes to rescue them. If he was really looking at big picture morality he would have realized that sometimes people die in a war, and it's not worth risking the overall goal of defeating the Empire to possibly save his friends. But Luke isn't willing to make that sacrifice, just like fighting the Empire was only more important than getting his chores done when he had a murdered family to make it personal.

What was Luke supposed to learn at the cave? That the Force should not be used as a weapon? That's BS. A weapon is morally neutral. Hence lightsabers.

Nonsense. The whole point of the story is that the force isn't morally neutral. There is a light side (knowledge and defense) and a dark side (anger and attack), and how you use the force defines who you are. This was the point of the cave lesson: that Luke was dangerously close to becoming what he was trying to fight against because he was using the force for the dark side reasons.

Regardless of whatever Yoda wanted Luke to see, what Luke actually saw was the deep connection between him an Vader. But because he lacked the conscious knowledge to understand this, he could not truly grasp the meaning of the vision.

The "deep connection" was that Luke was about to become Vader. As long as he viewed the force as a weapon and focused on killing Vader the best he could hope to accomplish was to kill Vader and take his place beside the emperor. Your speculation that the vision suggests that Luke has any other connection just isn't supported by the movie. Luke shows no sign of seeing it that way or reluctance to kill Vader until after the "I am your father" revelation.

Luke finally does understand his vision in the cave much later on, in the Emperor's throne room on the second Death Star, when he has overpowered his father through rage and is a moment away from murdering him. He sees the wires protruding from Vader's stump and the wires in his own wrist. In this moment, he not only realizes that he could fall to the dark side, as the Emperor wishes and hopes, but that his connection with his father means that there is still good in his father, which Obi-Wan explicitly denies earlier.

And I think you're missing the point there too. Luke finally understands his vision, but it's the lure and danger of the dark side he understands, not the possible good in Vader. Vader isn't still somehow like Luke, Luke is becoming more like Vader. If he finishes off Vader as he lies wounded on the floor (after Luke just gave in to his anger to get the strength to beat him) then he has become Vader. One sith dies, and another rises to replace him. But instead he throws away his weapon and chooses his principles over winning, and at that moment he becomes a jedi. It doesn't matter if Vader still has good in him or not, Luke still has to show him mercy and take the moral high ground.

Light and darkness are not merely a matter of "religion" in the SW setting. In SW, reality has an objective moral dimension embodied by the Force.

I don't think you understand what "objective" means. There's never any objective quality shown in the force or its effects, only the moral judgements of the people who use it.

Agent Tremelo, You necessarily have to look outside of the movies to find anything that casts the Rebellion as morally gray. But the EU had a fair number of plots along those lines. This comes back to the point SPJr and I were talking about in the trailer thread: do you take SW as a Hollywood-produced fairy tale with archetypal villains and heroes or do you take SW as an alternate reality? If the latter, then you can ask questions like Peregrine did about Han: how many lives were ruined by the drugs he smuggled for Jabba? How far would the Rebellion go to defeat the Empire? Is there really any difference between them?

Well, that last one is a bit angsty teenager. There is certainly a bright line between the Rebellion and the Empire, even for those who prefer to enjoy SW as a kind of gritty, organic alternate reality. And that line is not as simple as who destroys billions of sentient beings at a stroke just to prove a political point. That atrocity reflects the real difference: unlike the Alliance, the Empire shows no interest in governing (which is different from merely dominating others with brutal force).

Peregrine, Yoda was not correct. Looking back on that scene with the benefit of the prequels, we can see the whole long pattern of Yoda's mistake. Perhaps it is unfair to blame Yoda alone. Perhaps the Order was the same 800 years or more before and he was taught to be blind just as he taught many generations of Jedi to be blind. But I definitely suspect centuries of his leadership played a massive role in what happened. In any case, the Jedi Order dismissed personal relationships for this sterile concept of the greater good. This and nothing more complicated spelled their doom. The inability to understand others, even at a very simple level, brought them low. In any case, Yoda is still stuck in this mindset after decades of exile. Advising Luke to abandon his friends ... and as it turns out his sister ... to Vader is just the same as when he inadvertently advised Anakin to give up on Padme. Qui-Gon Jinn tried to teach Obi-Wan about the Living Force but Obi-Wan was unfortunately too conventional to question the cracked wisdom of the Council as his master did.

If you insist on looking at the big picture morality, then ask yourself: who failed to detect the Sith Lord after decades in close proximity? who cooperated with the mobilization of what was to become the Imperial army? who stood by as Palpatine subverted democracy in the Senate? who then failed to stop Palpatine? who did nothing for decades afterward until Palpatine had amassed the power to murder a whole world at the press of a button? And even then, too late ...

As it turned out, Luke's presence on Bespin saved his friends. One cannot imagine Vader letting the Falcon slip away without Luke distracting Vader, considering the whole movie is pretty much about finding that ship and the people on it.

As far as the vision in the cave -- you've only got half of it. As I already explained to you, Luke's full realization comes later on at the end of RotJ. The beauty of Luke's arc, and the innermost heart of the morality of SW, is that "I am your father" necessarily means "you are my son" and "you are my father" necessarily means "I am your son." This is the mystery of the cave fully untangled, the arc of redemption, the wisdom that eluded the Jedi Order to their deadly peril but that saved Luke and Vader and defeated evil.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
The people in here who think that a massive, galaxy spanning political and military organization is just going to roll over and play dead because of a serious military defeat and an assassination of it's dictator are delusional. Hell in the EU/Legends canon, the Empire Remanent in various forms was around 100YBY+. Warlords like Thrawn, Zsinj, Dalla and of course Ysanne Isard engaged in massive conflicts with the Rebel Alliance ne New Republic, and it was still made clear that they didn't have the full backing of large chunks of the Imperial Remnant.

I think this can be further evidenced by the fact that the "Imperial" logo in the second trailer for Force Awakens is kind of a mish mash of the Empire's emblem and Ogre Kingdoms "ring of teeth" thing.


@Manchu I think that there isnt much way to look at the story as a whole, when even Obi Wan (paragon of virtue that he is) makes a comment in Ep. 3 about clone trooper pilots dying... Remember Anakin wants to go off and dog fight the droids, saying that they were killing off all the Republic's clone pilots. Obi Wan shoots back with, "That's what theyre there for!!" IMO, that's pretty morally grey, plus as we all know, he "lied" to Luke about Vader/Anakin (from a certain point of view)

Of course, there are other movies out there that would/could address the "do clones have rights as "natural" humans do?" issue better than star wars, but I still think it shows the Republic/Rebellion to not be the perfectly shining example they are supposed to be.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
@Manchu I think that there isnt much way to look at the story as a whole, when even Obi Wan (paragon of virtue that he is) makes a comment in Ep. 3 about clone trooper pilots dying... Remember Anakin wants to go off and dog fight the droids, saying that they were killing off all the Republic's clone pilots. Obi Wan shoots back with, "That's what theyre there for!!" IMO, that's pretty morally grey, plus as we all know, he "lied" to Luke about Vader/Anakin (from a certain point of view)

Of course, there are other movies out there that would/could address the "do clones have rights as "natural" humans do?" issue better than star wars, but I still think it shows the Republic/Rebellion to not be the perfectly shining example they are supposed to be.

The Clone Army has nothing to do with the Rebellion. As for the way Jedi treat clones ... yeah, I think this is yet more evidence that the Jedi failed. They are so focused on the Big Picture that they don't understand the value of a sentient life. The Clones become just another resource for them ... ironically in a pointless war. As it turned out, their Big Picture was just an illusion. Even more ironically, it seems like Anakin is the only person (maybe also Asoka) who treats the clones as real people. I have posted on Dakka before that I don't think the clones turning on the Jedi is only a matter of Order 66. The Jedi had oftentimes treated the clones very close to droids, which they resented. Meanwhile, Anakin's clones become his trusted personal unit of storm troopers.

 Manchu wrote:
That atrocity reflects the real difference: unlike the Alliance, the Empire shows no interest in governing (which is different from merely dominating others with brutal force).

How so? We don't see the Empire's everyday governing in any real detail, and we certainly don't see the rebellion do any governing (until the non-canon EU at least).

Peregrine, Yoda was not correct.

How wasn't he? I pointed out some of the times where Luke could easily have died on Bespin, and his friends were already on their way out by the time he arrived. It was an incredibly stupid risk to take, and demonstrated that Luke wasn't responsible enough to become a jedi at that point.

As it turned out, Luke's presence on Bespin saved his friends. One cannot imagine Vader letting the Falcon slip away without Luke distracting Vader, considering the whole movie is pretty much about finding that ship and the people on it.

Luke didn't save anyone. His friends had already escaped thanks to Lando finally discovering his spine and his conscience, and Vader had no chance of stopping their escape once they pressed the "turn the hyperdrive back on" button. The only thing Luke contributed was bringing R2-D2 back so he could press the button. If Luke had just sent R2-D2 back in his x-wing it would have accomplished the same end result.

As far as the vision in the cave -- you've only got half of it. As I already explained to you, Luke's full realization comes later on at the end of RotJ. The beauty of Luke's arc, and the innermost heart of the morality of SW, is that "I am your father" necessarily means "you are my son" and "you are my father" necessarily means "I am your son." This is the mystery of the cave fully untangled, the arc of redemption, the wisdom that eluded the Jedi Order to their deadly peril but that saved Luke and Vader and defeated evil.

1) The vision in the cave is a separate incident. Luke doesn't show any sign of thinking about it again later, or interpreting it as "Vader is like me". It's nothing more than a warning about the lure of the dark side and how close Luke is to falling.

2) The whole point of Luke's final enlightenment is that it doesn't matter if Vader still has good in him or can be saved. Luke still realizes that he needs to turn his back on his anger and stand by his principles. If Vader just watches him die then he has still died as a jedi. The fact that Vader does finally put family above his loyalty to the emperor doesn't change this decision.


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 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Remember Anakin wants to go off and dog fight the droids, saying that they were killing off all the Republic's clone pilots. Obi Wan shoots back with, "That's what theyre there for!!"

Of course you could say the same thing about other fights involving human pilots. The wingmen in the death star trench are just there to die as an extra set of shields to buy the leader a few more seconds to make the torpedo shot, Luke/Wedge/Biggs abandon their squadron leader to die so they won't be delayed in starting their own attack, etc. It's less about the value of clones and more about the need to accept that people die in a war and not let personal feelings get in the way of winning (a lesson Luke has to learn the hard way at Bespin).

 Peregrine wrote:

Of course you could say the same thing about other fights involving human pilots. The wingmen in the death star trench are just there to die as an extra set of shields to buy the leader a few more seconds to make the torpedo shot, Luke/Wedge/Biggs abandon their squadron leader to die so they won't be delayed in starting their own attack, etc. It's less about the value of clones and more about the need to accept that people die in a war and not let personal feelings get in the way of winning (a lesson Luke has to learn the hard way at Bespin).

I think the difference there is that you had "natural beings" making the conscious decisions that were made. Im sure we are to presume that the "leader" being protected by the extra shields was the "best shot" of that squadron. I mean, nothing in "protect squadron leader so he can take the shot" means "stay in formation at all costs" Though honestly, I'd say the worst actions of the rebellion depicted in the movie is probably on Hoth... what happened to all the guys who were freezing their bums off outside in the snow while the AT-ATs walked up and allowed the space ships and command elements to get airborne?

The Empire's idea of everyday governing is siphoning massive amounts of resources from systems, including slave labor, to build a giant gun to point at their heads to get more resources.

I'm not sure why we are arguing about Luke being irresponsible. In fact, I know that we aren't because I have never claimed it was responsible. My point is, Yoda was incorrect that Luke's departure would destroy everything they worked for. That was fear-mongering, which I guess if we believe Yoda is the same thing as dark side baiting.

At no point in ESB is Luke close to falling to the dark side so that cannot possibly be the point of the cave vision. The actual point is, just in terms of story telling, is to foreshadow the full revelation of the connection between Vader and Luke. RotJ invokes this in reverse to have son identify with father, realizing that he will not kill his own father in whom he knows there is still goodness even as he recognizes there is darkness in himself.