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 Talys wrote:
Yes, there is no issue at all with selling over the internet as long as you don't display prices or list items for sale. It is a contractual obligation, because GW doesn't want to have brick and mortar stores that are FLGS where people play at and see product have their sales cannibalized and commoditized by online sellers who pay less overhead.

Although I love the convenience and low prices of the Internet, I get it. Computer stores and bookstores have been driven out of business because people go there to look at product, and then go to Amazon to buy it cheaper. I'm just as guilty as the next guy who checks the price on Amazon while I'm in Costco or Chapters.

So, in short: I have no problem (and I support) GW keeping my local, gaming stores in business.

That would be a legitimate reason if GW themselves didn't do exactly what they prohibit others from doing. Even if you have a B&M store, you still can't have an online shopping cart for ease of sales... unless you're GW. If the real reason was to protect physical stores, they shouldn't be following a "do as we say not as we do" policy combined with them purposely moving half the line to direct only which absolutely kills online sales a few weeks post release. With the lower discount to retailers, there isn't any meat on the bone to offer direct only stuff online at the typical discount of 20% because that leaves nothing for the physical or online stores.

 Talys wrote:
Yes, there is no issue at all with selling over the internet as long as you don't display prices or list items for sale. It is a contractual obligation, because GW doesn't want to have brick and mortar stores that are FLGS where people play at and see product have their sales cannibalized and commoditized by online sellers who pay less overhead.

Although I love the convenience and low prices of the Internet, I get it. Computer stores and bookstores have been driven out of business because people go there to look at product, and then go to Amazon to buy it cheaper. I'm just as guilty as the next guy who checks the price on Amazon while I'm in Costco or Chapters.

So, in short: I have no problem (and I support) GW keeping my local, gaming stores in business.

I don't mean to be rude, but i'm going to sound like that anyway so oh well. Are you really THAT naive, considering GW's history with third parties? Seriously?

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 Accolade wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 obsidianaura wrote:
It seems pretty clear what GW is up to in my opinion .

They don't want to run their own stores, they'd much rather close all their own shops. They see them as an expense they don't want to pay for.

We've seen them cut the shops down to one man stores to save money but they still have to pay rent on shops.

They've set up their reseller discounts in such a way that it favours the Bricks and Mortar store, they want LGS to replace their own shops and foot the bill.

An online only store is not what GW wants and would rather see out of business.

They themselves look like they want to be suppliers only.

I disagree with that sentiment. I believe that GW still strongly believes in their storefronts as being the preferred sales vehicle (next to their online store) for their product, at least here in the US. The web is replete with FLGSs complaining about unfavorable trade agreements with brick and mortar stores up to and including the complaints that the OP has voiced here. If nothing else, the number of "direct only" types of products is a strong indicator that GW prefers to be the only method of sale for GW-branded products.

Yeah, GW seems to think they're Apple. They want you go only go to GW stores for purchase of their goods and for these goods to be virtually non-purchasable outside of their direct channels. Only problem is GW products have little to no ubiquity the same way a phone or computer does, they're just plastic miniatures. There is only so much shoe-horning that people will put up with before they just quit. It's really the same thing in my mind to GW's attempts to squander bits sales. There are no companies (well, many less now) selling bits. So do you just shrug and buy the whole kit so you can get the bits you want, or do you just not make a purchase?

I think it's going to be a whole lot of people just not making purchases.

I already went to an Apple Store and told them to feth themselves for gakky business practices. Haven't gone to GW to do that yet (just venting on forums).

Your post makes absolutely no sense when read a possible response to the discussion; are you drunk posting or just trying to be contrary and pick a fight?

I responded to the post about GW thinking their Apple. Would it have helped if I cut out the full quote except for the one line I was responding to? I've actually gone in to an Apple Store and told them how awful they are for customer service. I haven't done that with GW. My response was about how I don't see GW as being quite as bad as Apple yet. Not a drunk text, nor picking a fight.

On topic though, I do feel for the Aussies, this is an even worse move for GW than the previous embargos. Does not create good will.

The difference here is that upper management at GW has attempted to compare themselves with Apple on several occasions through official communication channels (mostly remarks made by Kirby).

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Why do you think I was looking for a fight, unless of course you work for Apple: in which case I'll tell you your company is a piece of crap, and even GW isn't as bad as yours yet. The "geniuses" lie to customers and have actually told me, to my face, "Our product is perfect. The fault is yours." This being said after I researched the problem I faced and discussed with providers who sell Apple product.

Eh? The comment came off as knee-jerk and pithy to be honest, apologies if it wasn't meant in that spirit. No arguments from me about Apple, it's a highly overrated company whose employees often do think highly of themselves and the organization that they work for.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warboss wrote:

 Talys wrote:
Yes, there is no issue at all with selling over the internet as long as you don't display prices or list items for sale. It is a contractual obligation, because GW doesn't want to have brick and mortar stores that are FLGS where people play at and see product have their sales cannibalized and commoditized by online sellers who pay less overhead.

Although I love the convenience and low prices of the Internet, I get it. Computer stores and bookstores have been driven out of business because people go there to look at product, and then go to Amazon to buy it cheaper. I'm just as guilty as the next guy who checks the price on Amazon while I'm in Costco or Chapters.

So, in short: I have no problem (and I support) GW keeping my local, gaming stores in business.

That would be a legitimate reason if GW themselves didn't do exactly what they prohibit others from doing. Even if you have a B&M store, you still can't have an online shopping cart for ease of sales... unless you're GW. If the real reason was to protect physical stores, they shouldn't be following a "do as we say not as we do" policy combined with them purposely moving half the line to direct only which absolutely kills online sales a few weeks post release. With the lower discount to retailers, there isn't any meat on the bone to offer direct only stuff online at the typical discount of 20% because that leaves nothing for the physical or online stores.

Because they want to be the only ones responsible for the demise of FLGs?

No worries. Were YOU drunk responding? heheh

 agnosto wrote:
Miniature Market, a large brick and mortar as well as a large online store, here in the US stopped carrying GW products last year due to being fed-up with their shenanigans.

The thing is that GW wants to be the only source of sales for GW products and they see LGSs as a necessary evil in that, especially in the US, their storefronts don't and can't possibly reach everywhere.

The biggest problem I see with GW's antagonistic approach to outside sales (outside the company) is that it severely curtails market exposure and retards growth potential. Apple can get away with it because they're Apple but even they sell their products in every store that will carry it. I make this comparison because Kirby often likes to compare himself to Steve Jobs and GW to Apple (the whole premium-priced boutique image thing). This, I believe, has been one of the major contributing factors to the gradual decline in sales volume that GW has experienced and will likely continue to experience as management seems unwilling to change current marketing practices but instead double-down on the same losing strategy.

I went into the nearest GW store to me. I casually wondered why there wasn't one closer to the city center and they told me that they had closed in Seattle because "the minimum wage laws made it hard for them." I'm pretty sure this was a single-person store that might have cost a few hundred dollars extra to run a month. If they start antagonizing the other stores that still sell their stuff in places where I don't have to spend half an hour in my car to get to, that could be the thing that makes me quit. Though quite frankly, there are now so many things that could be the final thing that makes me quit, that this is not saying much.

 Talys wrote:
So, in short: I have no problem (and I support) GW keeping my local, gaming stores in business.

I might believe that if it weren't for the fact *several* stores have said how much of a pain in the arse GW is to work with as a distributor from stores which are online, brick and mortar and stores that have both online and brick and mortar (like TCC).

Also since we're talking about Australia, GW give local stores an extra kick in the balls for setting the wholesale price absurdly high.

It seems to have been the case for 20+ years that GW will treat third party stores well right up until it thinks it can replace them with a more direct source, then they start to screw them over.

Time for Operation Adopt an Aussie! Americans can buy at retail and ship to Oz and their Aussie brother will still save money.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Talys wrote:
So, in short: I have no problem (and I support) GW keeping my local, gaming stores in business.

I might believe that if it weren't for the fact *several* stores have said how much of a pain in the arse GW is to work with as a distributor from stores which are online, brick and mortar and stores that have both online and brick and mortar (like TCC).

Several?
Try all.

And these days GW are absolutely not keeping places like TCC in business, they reported GW product had fallen to about 10-15% of their revenue and blamed GWs own business practices for it when they (and many others, all saying the same thing) tried to stop this getting through the ACCC.

GW want your local gaming stores dead.

 warboss wrote:


That would be a legitimate reason if GW themselves didn't do exactly what they prohibit others from doing. Even if you have a B&M store, you still can't have an online shopping cart for ease of sales... unless you're GW. If the real reason was to protect physical stores, they shouldn't be following a "do as we say not as we do" policy combined with them purposely moving half the line to direct only which absolutely kills online sales a few weeks post release. With the lower discount to retailers, there isn't any meat on the bone to offer direct only stuff online at the typical discount of 20% because that leaves nothing for the physical or online stores.

FLGS get their standard 40% trade discount on direct only orders. The difference is two-fold: the items may not ship from locally, and the FLGS gets 1 free shipping order per month. This makes small direct only orders unprofitable; on the other hand, they can also be unprofitable for GW (free shipping on a small order). Also, instead of ordering from their local rep, they order online.

GW only sells online at full retail. Most FLGS will give some discount, which GW is cool with.

A luxury product should not be relegated to a commodity; I don't think this is helpful to any local store.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Talys wrote:
So, in short: I have no problem (and I support) GW keeping my local, gaming stores in business.

I might believe that if it weren't for the fact *several* stores have said how much of a pain in the arse GW is to work with as a distributor from stores which are online, brick and mortar and stores that have both online and brick and mortar (like TCC).

Also since we're talking about Australia, GW give local stores an extra kick in the balls for setting the wholesale price absurdly high.

It seems to have been the case for 20+ years that GW will treat third party stores well right up until it thinks it can replace them with a more direct source, then they start to screw them over.

I confess I know nothing about Australian GW trade practices. Is the discount lower than everywhere else --40% of MSRP?

SolentSanguine wrote:
It's a business practise not confined to GW. I was looking last year into starting up an online wargaming business as a sideline in case I was made redundant from my day job. Thinking if it did well I could open a store and expand.

All the wholesalers/importers I talked to would only supply bricks and mortar shops. No online only businesses.

I owned an airsoft store not too long ago, and all of the airsoft distributors did the same thing. Reason being is that a tax ID for a sole prop business is not hard at all to come by, and airsoft teams (eg: gaming clubs) would go in on one together and get a wholesale discount on products. Makes sense from the distributor end.

Mavnas wrote:

I went into the nearest GW store to me. I casually wondered why there wasn't one closer to the city center and they told me that they had closed in Seattle because "the minimum wage laws made it hard for them." I'm pretty sure this was a single-person store that might have cost a few hundred dollars extra to run a month. If they start antagonizing the other stores that still sell their stuff in places where I don't have to spend half an hour in my car to get to, that could be the thing that makes me quit. Though quite frankly, there are now so many things that could be the final thing that makes me quit, that this is not saying much.

Well, that's a bizarre thing for someone to say. The minimum wage for Washington State is USD $9.47 -- regardless of where in the state

You should not complain in Seattle, though, man. You have a whole bunch of gaming stores in the general area (with better discounts than the 0% GW discount!!) and IIRC you have at least two GW stores in the neighboring towns -- Lynwood and Kent? And maybe one more, nearby too? In same way, in the Vancouver, BC area, there is 1 GW store in the Burnaby. But nobody that I know goes there to actually, you know, BUY stuff, because we're just not really interested in spending 15%+ more

OTOH -- the GW store in Burnaby is a nicely set up store, with lots of stock, quite a few gaming tables, and a nice, painted, Sector Imperialis board.

Not to derail the conversation, but the city of Seattle itself passed a fairly substantial minimum wage hike. Outside Seattle, Washington State's minimum wage is $9.47, but in Seattle itself it's a good bit higher (not sure what it is exactly and CBA to look right now because the specifics aren't terribly relevant. Also considering Seattle's minimum wage is not relevant to GW's business practices in Australia, I have my fingers crossed that this won't turn into a political slapfight over the merits vs the drawbacks of higher or lower minimum wage).

When GW stops online stores here they will likely go after the US next

ToxicBox wrote:
When GW stops online stores here they will likely go after the US next

Too late, it's already happened. Some places hung on for a while but they're eventually dying off; only diehards like the Warstore are really still carrying GW product and you have to act like you're buying drugs to order anything (call/email, as for a quote, send the money, etc.)

You'd think a company interested in making money would want their product spread far and wide but GW continues to make it more and more difficult to buy their goods. There is one GW store in my entire state and if they get much more restrictive, that may be the only place that will be carrying anything. The end result is that fewer retailers care to toe their growing list of restrictions and just choose to stop carrying their product which means fewer people buy it...etc.

 agnosto wrote:

ToxicBox wrote:
When GW stops online stores here they will likely go after the US next

Too late, it's already happened. Some places hung on for a while but they're eventually dying off; only diehards like the Warstore are really still carrying GW product and you have to act like you're buying drugs to order anything (call/email, as for a quote, send the money, etc.)

You'd think a company interested in making money would want their product spread far and wide but GW continues to make it more and more difficult to buy their goods. There is one GW store in my entire state and if they get much more restrictive, that may be the only place that will be carrying anything. The end result is that fewer retailers care to toe their growing list of restrictions and just choose to stop carrying their product which means fewer people buy it...etc.

I wonder if it's to force people into buying at full retail and if their next move would be to force B&M stores to ONLY sell at retail price

ToxicBox wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

ToxicBox wrote:
When GW stops online stores here they will likely go after the US next

Too late, it's already happened. Some places hung on for a while but they're eventually dying off; only diehards like the Warstore are really still carrying GW product and you have to act like you're buying drugs to order anything (call/email, as for a quote, send the money, etc.)

You'd think a company interested in making money would want their product spread far and wide but GW continues to make it more and more difficult to buy their goods. There is one GW store in my entire state and if they get much more restrictive, that may be the only place that will be carrying anything. The end result is that fewer retailers care to toe their growing list of restrictions and just choose to stop carrying their product which means fewer people buy it...etc.

I wonder if it's to force people into buying at full retail and if their next move would be to force B&M stores to ONLY sell at retail price

Don't be shocked when they end trade sales altogether and only sell through their own official stores and website. I'm betting it'll happen in two years, three at the most.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

ToxicBox wrote:
I would be surprised if there was more then 20 GW stores country wide.

I count 6 in/around Melbourne, 8 for Sydney, 3 Brisbane, 3 Adelaide, 4 Perth, 2 Tasmania, 1 Darwin. There might be more in smaller cities, but that's 27. The GW annual report says 40 stores for "Australia" but I wonder if that includes NZ..

The storefinder on the GW site brings up 34 in total across all of the capital cities. It's possible there are a couple more in outlying suburbs that I missed.

 Guildsman wrote:
Don't be shocked when they end trade sales altogether and only sell through their own official stores and website. I'm betting it'll happen in two years, three at the most.

If GW does something that stupid they'll be dead by the next financial report. Outside of the UK they don't have enough stores to go direct-only without losing the majority of their customers (who aren't going to drive an hour or more to get to a store). Existing customers might buy online for a while to finish their armies, but in-store gaming would be crippled and GW's ability to recruit new players would disappear almost entirely.

 Talys wrote:
Although I love the convenience and low prices of the Internet, I get it. Computer stores and bookstores have been driven out of business because people go there to look at product, and then go to Amazon to buy it cheaper. I'm just as guilty as the next guy who checks the price on Amazon while I'm in Costco or Chapters.

I can't speak for computer stores, but the issue generally attributed with the demise of the bookstore was actually the rise of companies like Borders pushing everyone out of business with aggressive sales tactics, rather than the internet.

The thing is, though, that even if it is the internet to blame, that genie isn't going back in the bottle. GW can stick their fingers in their ears and insist that it's still the '90s all they want, the internet is here to stay, and the smart business adapts to that rather than trying to pretend it doesn't exist, or that you can somehow apply artificial borders to it.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talys wrote:
I confess I know nothing about Australian GW trade practices. Is the discount lower than everywhere else --40% of MSRP?

Not sure about currently, but it was 30% back when I was stocking GW stuff (which is some time ago now).

Australian wholesale price is currently higher than retail in some other countries. There are several Australian independants who are currently buying their stock at retail from the UK rather than directly from GW here in Oz. Which is absurd.


And it's going to get even more absurd, since the other part of the new trade rules that they've just managed to slip past the ACCC is that they can apply discriminatory pricing levels to stores that they don't feel are offering a sufficiently appropriate 'experience' for their customers. So the company that just removed the gaming space from most of their own stores can now set their wholesale prices based on how much gaming space your independant store has.

That was my initial thought. Although, When Kirby retires (Or hopefully fired?) We will get a new CEO who sees this gak storm for what it is and makes an attempt to fix it. We have seen that some of the designers/rule makers are unhappy with the direction the company is going though my fear is that they will quit and someone else will come along and just ruin the models.

ToxicBox wrote:
That was my initial thought. Although, When Kirby retires (Or hopefully fired?) We will get a new CEO who sees this gak storm for what it is and makes an attempt to fix it. We have seen that some of the designers/rule makers are unhappy with the direction the company is going though my fear is that they will quit and someone else will come along and just ruin the models.

Kirby stepped down as CEO at the start of the year. He is still head of the board and the new CEO is, by all accounts, just a yes man Kirby hand picked from within the company. Nothing has changed.

 jonolikespie wrote:

ToxicBox wrote:
That was my initial thought. Although, When Kirby retires (Or hopefully fired?) We will get a new CEO who sees this gak storm for what it is and makes an attempt to fix it. We have seen that some of the designers/rule makers are unhappy with the direction the company is going though my fear is that they will quit and someone else will come along and just ruin the models.

Kirby stepped down as CEO at the start of the year. He is still head of the board and the new CEO is, by all accounts, just a yes man Kirby hand picked from within the company. Nothing has changed.

...I don't even have words to express my disapointment.

Problem is that Kirby hasn't been the CEO since last November or so, Kevin Rountree has. Though given that Kirby's still chairman, and what's generally known and assumed about the board, it's a bit like the time Medvedev 'took over' from Putin.

Edit: ninja'd. Jono is denying content to my online outlet...

If anyone in the US or UK who can ship volume down here (ignore the flag, I really am in Australia), let me know - even if we split the difference between your cost and AU retail, buyers here will be happy and it should cover shipping/profit easily...

kb_lock wrote:
If anyone in the US or UK who can ship volume down here (ignore the flag, I really am in Australia), let me know - even if we split the difference between your cost and AU retail, buyers here will be happy and it should cover shipping/profit easily...

http://ozhammer.webs.com/

I had an internet only store and wanted to sell GW, and was told they do not trade with online stores without a B&M storefront, that was over 8 years ago.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Haemonculus wrote:

kb_lock wrote:
If anyone in the US or UK who can ship volume down here (ignore the flag, I really am in Australia), let me know - even if we split the difference between your cost and AU retail, buyers here will be happy and it should cover shipping/profit easily...

http://ozhammer.webs.com/

The prices are great but add shipping and it is cheaper to buy full retail in Aus.

 Achaylus72 wrote:
I had an internet only store and wanted to sell GW, and was told they do not trade with online stores without a B&M storefront, that was over 8 years ago.
.

Yeah, that used to be the policy. It was changed at some point in the last decade (I believe due to the questionable legality of it under Oz trade laws at the time), and a handful of internet stores sprang up as result, but this new ruling by the ACCC allows them to discriminate against independant stores based on whatever criteria they decide to devise..


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 Achaylus72 wrote:
The prices are great but add shipping and it is cheaper to buy full retail in Aus.

Not actually true.

I didn't realise Ozhammer were still around, I was trying to build a website for that dude when I had 2 months off work (must have been about a year ago) and lost contact with him somehow - figured he'd given up on it

E: and as pointed out, shipping can get a bit painful

I was hoping to find some kind of regular thing to get stock here to feed out

 insaniak wrote:

 Achaylus72 wrote:
I had an internet only store and wanted to sell GW, and was told they do not trade with online stores without a B&M storefront, that was over 8 years ago.
.

Yeah, that used to be the policy. It was changed at some point in the last decade (I believe due to the questionable legality of it under Oz trade laws at the time), and a handful of internet stores sprang up as result, but this new ruling by the ACCC allows them to discriminate against independant stores based on whatever criteria they decide to devise..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Achaylus72 wrote:
The prices are great but add shipping and it is cheaper to buy full retail in Aus.

Not actually true.

My fault, not always the case admit and it can be a few dollars cheaper, but sometime it can be the other way as well more expensive than Australian.

On some of the newer kits, the price disparity has been considerably reduced, so yes, on those cases shipping may push it over. Older kits where the pricing hasn't been adjusted yet would get a better result.