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Hello dakka. The release of the Eldar book has everybody a little fired up and I'm not sure if this type of thread has been made already, if so then thats my bad. But I had this interesting discussion at my FLGS not to long ago about what GW would have to do with the Wraithknight, rules wise, to bring it down to a level where it is at least approachable. We had many different idea, I personally jumped on board when one guy suggested that they make it take warp charges to activate the knight, as in shooting 1 gun of the wraith knight was a 3 warp charge power. You would throw dice towards it and once activated then the wraith knight would be able to move or shoot in the shooting phase, or assault but we could possibly make this more warp charge points to make a more subtle cost to the knight. This would open the option for different kinds of counter play, like snipers taking out psykers or using your own deny the witch dice to try and counter the activation to the wraith knight. So my question is to dakka do you think this is a good idea, could it possibly bring the knight down to a reasonable level or would this dumb so much on the knight that they wouldn't be used any more and all we would see is scatter bikes? Also, what would you do to bring the knight down without totally nuttering it?

I have argued before that without the jump rule, it would be fine. If you are keeping jump, then make the thing 355 points.

The jump rule doesn't make that much of a difference. Gargantuan Creature move 12" normally.

My solution would be to start the WK at 5 wounds instead of 6. That effectively makes it 16-17% less survivable, making it more price appropriate

Make ranged D rolls of 6 count as 5, and give it 5 wounds total. BAM! Fixed.

Leaving it as it is, enforcing a 0-1 LOW limitation across all detachments.

 Lord Commissar wrote:
Leaving it as it is, enforcing a 0-1 LOW limitation across all detachments.

This is what a lot of people suggested, simply smacking the "Unique" label on it and only allowing for one ever to be present, but GW would never do such a thing, hurts sales. And all those poor people who already own 2. I feel like GW either needs to tone down the initial power or do something where it has hidden weaknesses such as I suggested in the beginning. Thought on this?

 Galef wrote:
The jump rule doesn't make that much of a difference. Gargantuan Creature move 12" normally.

My solution would be to start the WK at 5 wounds instead of 6. That effectively makes it 16-17% less survivable, making it more price appropriate

Jump makes all the difference in the world! It can simply leap over impassable terrain (or onto it) makeing it impossible to chase down, or utilize the normal movement in the movement phase to allow it to reroll for charge distance. Not to mention the ability to deep strike it for a very hard to kill beta strike. Jump means a lot more than 12" movement in the way the game is played.

The main reason the wraithknight seems undercosted is it is the only low level superheavy/gargantuan that is a specialist available currently. When the imperial knight book comes out, don't be surprised if the melee only and shooting only imperial knights are much closer to the wraithknight's point total.

Wraithcannons back to Distort. -1 on stomp table. S: D axe strikes at ini1. Price increased to 340 pt.

I mean, look at thirsters.

I vote for the mallet-fix. Every WK that gets taken out in the game gets hit with a mallet.

 Galef wrote:
The jump rule doesn't make that much of a difference. Gargantuan Creature move 12" normally.

My solution would be to start the WK at 5 wounds instead of 6. That effectively makes it 16-17% less survivable, making it more price appropriate

Actually... as a JUMP Gargantuan Creature, you can move 12" in the movement phase (not ignoring intervening models/terrain), then save your JUMP move for the Assault Phase to reroll your charge distance.

Yup.

(Takes cover when people now hear how the Wraithknight's even better.)

The imperial knight gallant is 325 points. That means that games workshop believes the ability to throw monstrous creatures/vehicles as a 12" range large blast and a heavy stubber are worth 30 points.

Therefor, my assertion stands. The wraithknight (minus the "jump" ability) is appropriately costed.

Edit: cause grammar are bad

Drop it and the other wraith units and Distort weapons back to what they were in the prior codex.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
The imperial knight gallant is 325 points. That means that games workshop believes the ability to throw monstrous creatures/vehicles as a 12" range large blast and a heavy stubber are worth 30 points.

Therefor, my assertion stands. The wraithknight (minus the "jump" ability) is appropriately costed.

Edit: cause grammar are bad

Dude stop making stuff up. Your numbers are just bogus.
Gw clearly gave us the price of the gauntlet since it's the same exact cost as the reaver sword on every model.
Your hyperbole of costs is just made up.
The fact is regardless of what rules you believe it should or shouldn't have the wroathknight is significantly undercosted.
We went over this in the other thread the wraith knight rules as written with a scatterlaser at worst should cost as much as the knight lancer which is 400 points. Do you honestly believe jump is worth ~90 points?

I'm going to make this simple to show you by comparing the knight lancer who is designed to kill garagantuan creatures vs the wraithknight since they are near identical and show you not only how undercosted the wraithknight is but how much more durable it is. First there is no range str d in the game outside of elder or insanely expensive both in price and points forgeworld lord of war models. The cheapest non elder one comes in at 455 points for a baneblade varient. So facing any range str d is basically non exsistant unless you face other eldar players. But you are Comparing the Knights vs wraithknights so let's do that.
The wraith knight is 3+, 5++ all around in melee and shooting with blind to all enemy units (including walkers) within 6inches and a 5+ fnp, compared to 4++ on one side but never on the rear and 5++ in melee. Which is better? statistically at range a 5+ with 5+ is the same as a 4+ So everything else the wraithknight has is just better then the lancer.
The lancer has the ability to run Further (3d6) if it chooses however it can never shoot in that turn furthermore the wraithknight is a Jump monstrous creature, able to deepstrike, move 12in, ignore all intervening terrain and models and reroll charge distances and has hammer of wraith.
The lancer has a 6 shot str 7 ap2 gun with an 18in range vs the wraithknights 4 str 6 ap6 36in range gun.
The lancer gives a -1 to hit on superheavies and garagatuans ONLY while the wraith knight shields blinds all enemy units within 6 inches and makes them all ws1/bs1.
the wraithknight gets its int5 atk all the time whereas the lancer is only on the charge.
On top of all this the lancer has to deal with melta, armourbane, haywire, ordinance, lance, tank hunters, where the wraithknight only deals with fleshbane(extremely rare), monster hunter, and shred. Poison and sniper only working on 6s as well.
While psychic shriek works on garagatuans there are several other powers that specifically effect only vehicles that does not effect gargantuan creatures.
On top of this the lancer deals with all penetrating hits causing an additional d3 hull damage on a 6+(which is modifiable). Whereas the wraithknight takes d3 hit from Insta death or force weapons only.
On top of this the lancer deals with barrage ignoring the shield because of the way ion shield works.
The only weakness the wraithknight has compared to the lancer is its able to get hurt by str5 weapons on a 6+. However the wraithknights 3+ armour, 5+ fnp tends to not really care about any str 5 hits anyone has because there are no str5 ap3 weapons In game.
The two units are directly comparable they both have he same role, the same type of setup except the wraithknight is better in every category and the lancer costs almost 100points more then the wraithknight. So if you think they are equivalent then at bare minimum the wraithknight is obviously 100 points undercosted and even then the lancer probably has the short end of the stick when the two face off and most people think the str d melee wraithknight is also the weakest version.

Having a chance to digest the codex now the only real issue is the 0-12 limit per detachment. All you need is to limit the Wraithknight to 0-1 and you have all you need.

The 36' heavy wraith cannons are not nearly so scary when there are only 2, and other armies can get their own LoW with similar capabilities.

Durandal wrote:
Having a chance to digest the codex now the only real issue is the 0-12 limit per detachment. All you need is to limit the Wraithknight to 0-1 and you have all you need.

The 36' heavy wraith cannons are not nearly so scary when there are only 2, and other armies can get their own LoW with similar capabilities.

You must be talking about forgeworld lord of wars because no other army has access to range d like this even in escalation unless you think the 455 pt bane blade shadowstorm is considered similar capabilities. And if you go the forgeworld route there are worse lord of wars then the Wraithknight (hello eldar revenant Titan)

gungo wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
The imperial knight gallant is 325 points. That means that games workshop believes the ability to throw monstrous creatures/vehicles as a 12" range large blast and a heavy stubber are worth 30 points.

Therefor, my assertion stands. The wraithknight (minus the "jump" ability) is appropriately costed.

Edit: cause grammar are bad

Dude stop making stuff up. Your numbers are just bogus.
Gw clearly gave us the price of the gauntlet since it's the same exact cost as the reaver sword on every model.
Your hyperbole of costs is just made up.
The fact is regardless of what rules you believe it should or shouldn't have the wroathknight is significantly undercosted.
We went over this in the other thread the wraith knight rules as written with a scatterlaser at worst should cost as much as the knight lancer which is 400 points. Do you honestly believe jump is worth ~90 points?

I'm going to make this simple to show you by comparing the knight lancer who is designed to kill garagantuan creatures vs the wraithknight since they are near identical and show you not only how undercosted the wraithknight is but how much more durable it is. First there is no range str d in the game outside of elder or insanely expensive both in price and points forgeworld lord of war models. The cheapest non elder one comes in at 455 points for a baneblade varient. So facing any range str d is basically non exsistant unless you face other eldar players. But you are Comparing the Knights vs wraithknights so let's do that.
The wraith knight is 3+, 5++ all around in melee and shooting with blind to all enemy units (including walkers) within 6inches and a 5+ fnp, compared to 4++ on one side but never on the rear and 5++ in melee. Which is better? statistically at range a 5+ with 5+ is the same as a 4+ So everything else the wraithknight has is just better then the lancer.
The lancer has the ability to run Further (3d6) if it chooses however it can never shoot in that turn furthermore the wraithknight is a Jump monstrous creature, able to deepstrike, move 12in, ignore all intervening terrain and models and reroll charge distances and has hammer of wraith.
The lancer has a 6 shot str 7 ap2 gun with an 18in range vs the wraithknights 4 str 6 ap6 36in range gun.
The lancer gives a -1 to hit on superheavies and garagatuans ONLY while the wraith knight shields blinds all enemy units within 6 inches and makes them all ws1/bs1.
the wraithknight gets its int5 atk all the time whereas the lancer is only on the charge.
On top of all this the lancer has to deal with melta, armourbane, haywire, ordinance, lance, tank hunters, where the wraithknight only deals with fleshbane(extremely rare), monster hunter, and shred. Poison and sniper only working on 6s as well.
While psychic shriek works on garagatuans there are several other powers that specifically effect only vehicles that does not effect gargantuan creatures.
On top of this the lancer deals with all penetrating hits causing an additional d3 hull damage on a 6+(which is modifiable). Whereas the wraithknight takes d3 hit from Insta death or force weapons only.
On top of this the lancer deals with barrage ignoring the shield because of the way ion shield works.
The only weakness the wraithknight has compared to the lancer is its able to get hurt by str5 weapons on a 6+. However the wraithknights 3+ armour, 5+ fnp tends to not really care about any str 5 hits anyone has because there are no str5 ap3 weapons In game.
The two units are directly comparable they both have he same role, the same type of setup except the wraithknight is better in every category and the lancer costs almost 100points more then the wraithknight. So if you think they are equivalent then at bare minimum the wraithknight is obviously 100 points undercosted and even then the lancer probably has the short end of the stick when the two face off and most people think the str d melee wraithknight is also the weakest version.

D3 extra hull points on a 7+, not 6, the Necron destroyers have str5 ap3. Monstrous creatures in the game, all of them, are more survivable than similarly costed walkers, so that comparison isn't anything specific to the wraithknight. The new Gallant imperial knight is the first one to do actually be focused on a particular aspect of the game. It is 30 points more expensive, has the same number of attacks (due to two weapons) as the wraithknight, and has the option to fire a little pea shooter and throw monstrous creatures/vehicles it kills in melee. The imperial knights are also immune to str 6 on the front armor, wraithknights are not.

Like I stated in our previous discussion, I sat down over the course of a few months with every codex in the game and figured out the point by algorithm by modifying the 4th edition vehicle design rules. My totals come within 15 points, plus or minus for everything but superheavies and I believe 4 two hull point vehicles. When I say that it costs X amount to make a unit have Y, it is because I can point at multiple things in game for comparison to show the points mathmatically. I didn't just "make up numbers" the rules are there, they make the vehicles, and adjust the points based on their own perception of balance.

By the way, the only reason the claw is equal points to the sword is that it strikes at init 1 to compensate for the throw. Either way, it added another strD attack to the profile.

gungo wrote:
You must be talking about forgeworld lord of wars because no other army has access to range d like this even in escalation unless you think the 455 pt bane blade shadowstorm is considered similar capabilities. And if you go the forgeworld route there are worse lord of wars then the Wraithknight (hello eldar revenant Titan)

Yes I include forgeworld stuff as LoW, since it is clearly allowed by the rules in the basic detachment structure. If I faced someone who took 12 Wraithknights I would take mine plus my Revenant Titan in a heartbeat. If I were fielding my SW force I would probably bring in a shadowsword. Heck the Tau can bring in the Y'vera as a FA choice and mow WK down with the double tapping ion discharge cannons.

Just like the old 4 Riptide lists, the Wraithknight alone isn't very scary. It is only when there are several of them on the table that it becomes difficult to deal with. A WK with sword and shield is roughly equivalent to a Knight, and if they go dual cannons then they have no inv save and can be taken out by snipers, MLs, LCs, Grav etc. Six wounds is only 18 BS 3 lascannon shots, that is 2 turns of firing from roughly 300 points of AM heavy weapon squads (9 teams).

The point is the WKs should now be evaluated against LoW choices, not heavy support. Tournies already limit LoW choices so you don't even have to lift a finger.

So what your saying is jump is worth 90 points or your made up algorithm just doesn't work on super heavies.
Sorry if I just don't take your word for it when gw clearly shows that the gauntlet and reaver star d Melee weapon which is the same as the wraithknights Melee weapon are all worth the same exact amount. The heavy stubber also has a purchase price none of which is 30 points. The point is your algorithm is off and your wrong. But keep insisting that it's worth an amount that is completely different than what gw charges you to upgrade.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Durandal wrote:

gungo wrote:
You must be talking about forgeworld lord of wars because no other army has access to range d like this even in escalation unless you think the 455 pt bane blade shadowstorm is considered similar capabilities. And if you go the forgeworld route there are worse lord of wars then the Wraithknight (hello eldar revenant Titan)

Yes I include forgeworld stuff as LoW, since it is clearly allowed by the rules in the basic detachment structure. If I faced someone who took 12 Wraithknights I would take mine plus my Revenant Titan in a heartbeat. If I were fielding my SW force I would probably bring in a shadowsword. Heck the Tau can bring in the Y'vera as a FA choice and mow WK down with the double tapping ion discharge cannons.

Just like the old 4 Riptide lists, the Wraithknight alone isn't very scary. It is only when there are several of them on the table that it becomes difficult to deal with. A WK with sword and shield is roughly equivalent to a Knight, and if they go dual cannons then they have no inv save and can be taken out by snipers, MLs, LCs, Grav etc. Six wounds is only 18 BS 3 lascannon shots, that is 2 turns of firing from roughly 300 points of AM heavy weapon squads (9 teams).

The point is the WKs should now be evaluated against LoW choices, not heavy support. Tournies already limit LoW choices so you don't even have to lift a finger.

Well then you are comparing other fw lows the power issue is moot unless you are talking power vs cost because that opens up a wholes other can of worms and with apoc type weapons not normally used in regular 40k and even in that comparison the wraithknight is horrible undercosted as the cheapest gargantuan/super heavy by a long shot. The closest comparison is the lancer and even that unit as shown above costs 100 points more.

Jump is worth 10 points per wound/hull point on vehicles and monstrous creatures. The wraithknight is not as strong as the lancer, their guns aren't even close to being the same strength. The closer analogy would be two starcannons so 4 str6 ap2 shots at 36" vs 6 str7 ap2 at 18". The lancer also drops my attack percentile by a third, and has the same defense against me in melee besides. They absolutely should not be equal points. The wraithknight with the jump ability and the two starcannons should be 395points. Without jump, 335 is fine.

Also, why do you keep comming onto the proposed rules forum and telling me to stop making up rules? I could have sworn that was the purpose of this particular forum...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the point cost to bring str 10 to strD is 30 points per attack/shot. My algorithm works on superheavies, I just made sure when someone built one custom it would cost about 35 points extra for the privilege.

Durandal wrote:
Having a chance to digest the codex now the only real issue is the 0-12 limit per detachment. All you need is to limit the Wraithknight to 0-1 and you have all you need.

The 36' heavy wraith cannons are not nearly so scary when there are only 2, and other armies can get their own LoW with similar capabilities.

What about they become Heavy Support, av 13-13-12 regular Walkers that move 6" and are one-shottable with any ap1-2 gun, get 5 hp, drop all the D-weapons, get ini2, bs2, a s8 ap2 24 range shot that gets hot, s8 ap2 small blast that gets hot, 2 ap5 heavy bolters, 2 24 range rocket launchers, s10 ap1 mellee weapon, IWND, 5++.
And cost...i don't know, 290 pts?

Basically all that has happened is that "LOW inflation" has hit eldar first .. it is my guess that this paper rock scissors new meta that gw are aiming for..

LOW > vehicles > infantry > LOW > vehicles .. etc

At the moment 40k is vehicle dense.. and it is vehicle > infantry and a two man dance... my gut feeling is they want to have more infantry so they are making vehicle counters cheap to disuade it.. instead of moaning like a kid rebuild your army around less vehicles or wait to see what LOW are released for you

My evidence for this is purely based on the facts:
1) eldar get uber LOW out of blue
2) 14 days later imperials get theirs

If I am right it will be
3) chaos next
4) orks
5) tyranids

Maybe in a single forgeworld type book

If you want the 'orkanaught to be a superheavy with strD melee, add 170 points.

When that particular walker was released, no one said it was costed appropriately. Let's not pretend it is, so let's stop trying to compare the two.

It looks like new IKs did not get price reduction at all, so I proposing 350p cost for WK. And rangs S D shots treat 6 roll on D table as 5. I could live with that.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
If you want the 'orkanaught to be a superheavy with strD melee, add 170 points.

When that particular walker was released, no one said it was costed appropriately. Let's not pretend it is, so let's stop trying to compare the two.

And with that you lost all credibility, the orkanaut is already the most over priced POS in the ork list and to make it worth anything you want to add 170pts to it to give it Super heavy status and a S D melee weapon? .....how about this. Lets switch, you can have an eldar walker with 13/13/12 and the weapons listed and give the orks the WK and we will see who wins :-P keep the stupid 170pt upgrade to

Well, seeing as our only AV13 walker - only AV 13 vehicle even - is 2500 points, perhaps that isn't the best idea.

(That said, it has a lot else going for it.)

Yeah, the Orkanauts suck. 170 is probably a bit steep of a bump, but it would probably require some sort of bump.

So no one is going to even countenance just demoting it back to what it was last codex?

because last Codex the WK was still OP thats why

Remove all Super heavys from normal 40k

send them back to apoc.

 Desubot wrote:
Remove all Super heavys from normal 40k

send them back to apoc.

And we have a winner.

I certainly wouldn't mind that.

"Sure, bring the giant Squiggoth!" was my response last time someone wanted to field something like it pre-escalation (turns out Squiggy isn't so scary for its points...). But as a standard part of the rules, it leads to a lot of stupid.