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 Happyjew wrote:
How do you have the ability to re-roll To Hit when shooting at SM?

How do I have the ability to re-roll To Hit with PE when I'm not able to roll 1s? Same thing.

When you shoot at your preferred enemy do you have the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls (whether or not there is a restriction on the To Hit roll itself)? What if you do not shoot your Preferred Enemy?

 Happyjew wrote:
When you shoot at your preferred enemy do you have the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls (whether or not there is a restriction on the To Hit roll itself)? What if you do not shoot your Preferred Enemy?

Yes on both accounts by the definition of "having the ability to" put forward by you and nosferatu. In both cases my ability to roll To Hit is restricted. But you say that does not matter, and I believe you. PE stays on my datasheet even when I'm shooting at someone else, so I still "have" the ability. Do you have a rules text saying something like "not being able to re-roll due to not being able to roll 1s doesn't matter, but shooting at the wrong targets does"?

Note: It doesn't say "The ability to re-roll while shooting at the target." It just says "have the ability to...". Have, in general. Do I have an ability that allows re-rolls To Hit? Yeah I do! Where does the rule tell me to check whether I am able to re-roll against my target?

Anyway, Hatred is the way to go. Gives you the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls against anyone. In melee, sure. But hey, the Blast rules don't say it has to be a ranged ability, just that it has to be able to re-roll To Hit. Which Hatred gives you.

Obviously it's silly, but it's what you're saying. While being hypocritical about requiring other people to find supporting rules text while never responding to requests to provide any yourself, but hey.

Try answering a post with a statement instead of a question sometime. It helps.

Unahim wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
When you shoot at your preferred enemy do you have the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls (whether or not there is a restriction on the To Hit roll itself)? What if you do not shoot your Preferred Enemy?

Yes on both accounts by the definition of "having the ability to" put forward by you and nosferatu. In both cases my ability to roll To Hit is restricted. But you say that does not matter, and I believe you. PE stays on my datasheet even when I'm shooting at someone else, so I still "have" the ability. Do you have a rules text saying something like "not being able to re-roll due to not being able to roll 1s doesn't matter, but shooting at the wrong targets does"?

So my Blood Angels, with Preferred Enemy (Abaddon) can re-roll To Hit rolls of 1 when shooting at Eldar?

 Happyjew wrote:
So my Blood Angels, with Preferred Enemy (Abaddon) can re-roll To Hit rolls of 1 when shooting at Eldar?

So my Blood Angels with PE can re-roll To Hit rolls other than 1s?

Unahim wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
So my Blood Angels, with Preferred Enemy (Abaddon) can re-roll To Hit rolls of 1 when shooting at Eldar?

So my Blood Angels with PE can re-roll To Hit rolls other than 1s?

If they are making a To Hit roll, then no. But nos and I have never claimed otherwise.

 Happyjew wrote:

Unahim wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
So my Blood Angels, with Preferred Enemy (Abaddon) can re-roll To Hit rolls of 1 when shooting at Eldar?

So my Blood Angels with PE can re-roll To Hit rolls other than 1s?

If they are making a To Hit roll, then no. But nos and I have never claimed otherwise.

Same answer to your question about Eldar and Blood Angels. If they are making a To Hit roll, then no. But I have never claimed otherwise, and it's irrelevant as they are not making a To Hit roll. Whether they can re-roll 1s against Eldar has nothing to do with whether they have the the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls (whether or not there is a restriction on the To Hit roll itself). Another phrase straight from you that applies just as well to my purposes as yours. You're the ones who have defined what the "ability to..." means in this discussion, and it quite clearly does not involve actually having to be able to make a re-roll in the specific moment you're making the attack we're talking about, so why keep asking whether I would be able to re-roll in that specific moment? Whatever the answer is must inevitably apply both to the "...against your preferred enemy" as well as the "rolls of 1 To Hit" part of the rule. You can't choose only half of the rule for it to apply to.

Why is it that you guys keep asking questions that apply to your reasoning too, and keep giving answers that debunk your own claims, yet refusing to accept them? Seems pretty disingenuous to me.

(And just so it's clear, I'm playing devil's advocate to make it obvious what sort of ridiculous situations this unfathomable interpretation brings about. In my view the RAW is fubar and needs an FAQ, but the view put forth here isn't supported by the text nor by any sort of sensible interpretation of how it -should- work.)

Removed


Automatically Appended Next Post:

And just so it's clear, I'm playing devil's advocate to make it obvious what sort of ridiculous situations this unfathomable interpretation brings about. In my view the RAW is fubar and needs an FAQ, but the view put forth here isn't supported by the text nor by any sort of sensible interpretation of how it -should- work.

I think the last part of your sentence s proof you haven't read our arguments. So again read Gets Hot and rerolls with blasts. Note how it's wording is the same as here for blasts and rerolls. Note how it calls out an ability with "rerolls 1s to hit" as an example of what triggers the rule. So why would you think this is not the interpretation of how it should work, when it is clearly how the design team think it is how it should work?

Unahim - so you're trolling. Good to know

There are a few threads here. Read them, realise your argument is fundamentally flawed and has been debunked at every turn. If you cannot take the time to do this, I will presume you don't have an argument to make and are just trolling

When shooting at sm you lack the ability. You do not have any ability to reroll your to hit.

We are consistent. You lack a fundamental understanding, and should not be arguing further until you research this argument.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Unahim - so you're trolling. Good to know

There are a few threads here. Read them, realise your argument is fundamentally flawed and has been debunked at every turn. If you cannot take the time to do this, I will presume you don't have an argument to make and are just trolling

Where in the rule does it say I need the ability to re-roll against my target? Show me. It says I just to have the ability in general. Its on my character sheet, so I have it.

If you can show me the text where it says "have the ability to re-roll To Hit against your current target" I'll concede defeat. But we both know that's not what it says. At best the rule is badly written.

Unahim wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Unahim - so you're trolling. Good to know

There are a few threads here. Read them, realise your argument is fundamentally flawed and has been debunked at every turn. If you cannot take the time to do this, I will presume you don't have an argument to make and are just trolling

Where in the rule does it say I need the ability to re-roll against my target? Show me. It says I just to have the ability in general. Its on my character sheet, so I have it.

If you can show me the text where it says "have the ability to re-roll To Hit against your current target" I'll concede defeat. But we both know that's not what it says. At best the rule is badly written.

I think I'm leaning in this direction as well.

Has a reroll (when a 1 is rolled)
Has a reroll (when attacking space marines)

I really dont see the logical difference.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

Unahim wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Unahim - so you're trolling. Good to know

There are a few threads here. Read them, realise your argument is fundamentally flawed and has been debunked at every turn. If you cannot take the time to do this, I will presume you don't have an argument to make and are just trolling

Where in the rule does it say I need the ability to re-roll against my target? Show me. It says I just to have the ability in general. Its on my character sheet, so I have it.

If you can show me the text where it says "have the ability to re-roll To Hit against your current target" I'll concede defeat. But we both know that's not what it says. At best the rule is badly written.

I think I'm leaning in this direction as well.

Has a reroll (when a 1 is rolled)
Has a reroll (when attacking space marines)

I really dont see the logical difference.

Have you read Gets Hot?

Also why are these different?


Has a reroll (when a 1 is rolled)
Has a reroll (when a failed to hit is rolled)

 FlingitNow wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

Unahim wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Unahim - so you're trolling. Good to know

There are a few threads here. Read them, realise your argument is fundamentally flawed and has been debunked at every turn. If you cannot take the time to do this, I will presume you don't have an argument to make and are just trolling

Where in the rule does it say I need the ability to re-roll against my target? Show me. It says I just to have the ability in general. Its on my character sheet, so I have it.

If you can show me the text where it says "have the ability to re-roll To Hit against your current target" I'll concede defeat. But we both know that's not what it says. At best the rule is badly written.

I think I'm leaning in this direction as well.

Has a reroll (when a 1 is rolled)
Has a reroll (when attacking space marines)

I really dont see the logical difference.

Have you read Gets Hot?

Also why are these different?


Has a reroll (when a 1 is rolled)
Has a reroll (when a failed to hit is rolled)

Yeah, I read it. Let me explain.
1. Has a reroll (when a 1 is rolled)
2. Has a reroll (when attacking SM)
3. Has a reroll (when a failed hit is rolled)

All of these things are still just:
4. Has a reroll (when a condition is met)

I guess I'm just confused as to why you would apply 1 and 3 to the blast rule, but not number 2.

Got lost in this conversation; are we trying to apply 2's conditional rerolls to when those conditions are not met?

Like say pe sm when fighting eldar or orks?

1 and 3 always have a re-roll, you just only get to make the reroll under certain conditions.

With 2 you only have a reroll against those specific faction units(there are 2 conditions in 2 btw; failed hits and specific faction)

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

Unahim wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Unahim - so you're trolling. Good to know

There are a few threads here. Read them, realise your argument is fundamentally flawed and has been debunked at every turn. If you cannot take the time to do this, I will presume you don't have an argument to make and are just trolling

Where in the rule does it say I need the ability to re-roll against my target? Show me. It says I just to have the ability in general. Its on my character sheet, so I have it.

If you can show me the text where it says "have the ability to re-roll To Hit against your current target" I'll concede defeat. But we both know that's not what it says. At best the rule is badly written.

I think I'm leaning in this direction as well.

Has a reroll (when a 1 is rolled)
Has a reroll (when attacking space marines)

I really dont see the logical difference.

Have you read Gets Hot?

Also why are these different?


Has a reroll (when a 1 is rolled)
Has a reroll (when a failed to hit is rolled)

Yeah, I read it. Let me explain.
1. Has a reroll (when a 1 is rolled)
2. Has a reroll (when attacking SM)
3. Has a reroll (when a failed hit is rolled)

All of these things are still just:
4. Has a reroll (when a condition is met)

I guess I'm just confused as to why you would apply 1 and 3 to the blast rule, but not number 2.

Well 1. is definitely allowed by the rule as it is called out as an example for an identically worded rule. So I assume we all agree that 1 is a definite right? That is no longer being debated correct?

I personally see 3 as working too. Does anyone disagree with this? If so please give reasoning.

Does anyone believe 2 holds? If not why are we even talking about it?

So we all agree 1, what I want to hear then is who and why think 3 doesn't and 2 does.

While i agree with 1, i do not agree with it on the premise that t-l sets precedence.

3 would be a yes alone. A no to me if there are further requirements. For instance IF CT give a reroll of 1s on bolt weapons; so a scout firing the blast from a heavy bolter i would give it to, but a scout firing a frag missile i wouldn't.

For the ums activating tactical doctrines i would give the reroll to any blast from a model with um ct.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
While i agree with 1, i do not agree with it on the premise that t-l sets precedence.

3 would be a yes alone. A no to me if there are further requirements. For instance IF CT give a reroll of 1s on bolt weapons; so a scout firing the blast from a heavy bolter i would give it to, but a scout firing a frag missile i wouldn't.

For the ums activating tactical doctrines i would give the reroll to any blast from a model with um ct.

I think you have 1 and 3 mixed up.

For number 2 I would argue that you do always have the reroll, as the special rule is listed in your profile/wargear etc.

So, I see it as the same as 1 and 3, always availble, but comes into play when conditions are met.

For example. If you did not ALWAYS have the reroll for number 2, you would have nothing to check against when you were firing on a SM unit and thus the rule would never come into play. It has to always exist.

If you still "have" a reroll in cases 1 and 3 even though conditions are NOT met, you should also apply that to #2.

extremefreak, disregarding blasts for the moment.

If I have preferred enemy (orks) and I shoot at an Ork unit, do I have the ability to re-roll any of my To Hit dice?

If I have preferred enemy (orks) and I shoot at an Eldar unit, do I have the ability to re-roll my To Hit dice?

wow, it looks like the "what if I'm not targeting the right enemy?" Hypothetical has gone on for way too long. Can we please cut that off as a point of comparison?

This thing is so simple it shouldn't need a simile.

The rule says "...re-rolls failed to hit and to wound rolls of 1 if attacking it's preferred enemy"

Did you fail your to hit roll with a 1? Yes? Re-roll!

Did you fail your to hit roll with anything other than a 1? Yes? You cannot re-roll.

It's irrelevant whether it's the number 2 or 3 on a d6, or an arrow on a scatter die. You did not roll a 1, so the re-roll rule does not apply to you.

Deathypoo wrote:
wow, it looks like the "what if I'm not targeting the right enemy?" Hypothetical has gone on for way too long. Can we please cut that off as a point of comparison?

This thing is so simple it shouldn't need a simile.

The rule says "...re-rolls failed to hit and to wound rolls of 1 if attacking it's preferred enemy"

Did you fail your to hit roll with a 1? Yes? Re-roll!

Did you fail your to hit roll with anything other than a 1? Yes? You cannot re-roll.

It's irrelevant whether it's the number 2 or 3 on a d6, or an arrow on a scatter die. You did not roll a 1, so the re-roll rule does not apply to you.

If I don't miss (because I rolled scatter instead of rolling To Hit), can I re-roll a blast if Guided?

 Happyjew wrote:


If I don't miss (because I rolled scatter instead of rolling To Hit), can I re-roll a blast if Guided?

If you didn't roll a hit, you missed. So yes.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
While i agree with 1, i do not agree with it on the premise that t-l sets precedence.

3 would be a yes alone. A no to me if there are further requirements. For instance IF CT give a reroll of 1s on bolt weapons; so a scout firing the blast from a heavy bolter i would give it to, but a scout firing a frag missile i wouldn't.

For the ums activating tactical doctrines i would give the reroll to any blast from a model with um ct.

I think you have 1 and 3 mixed up.

Yes i did, but you get my point.

Deathypoo wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:


If I don't miss (because I rolled scatter instead of rolling To Hit), can I re-roll a blast if Guided?

If you didn't roll a hit, you missed. So yes.

But I didn't miss on a To Hit roll.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
While i agree with 1, i do not agree with it on the premise that t-l sets precedence.

3 would be a yes alone. A no to me if there are further requirements. For instance IF CT give a reroll of 1s on bolt weapons; so a scout firing the blast from a heavy bolter i would give it to, but a scout firing a frag missile i wouldn't.

For the ums activating tactical doctrines i would give the reroll to any blast from a model with um ct.

I think you have 1 and 3 mixed up.

Yes i did, but you get my point.

Not really as you've completely ignored what was said about 1 (which you assumed was 3). Then talked about twin linked for 3 which no one mentioned. What I'm after is people that think 3 doesn't apply or people that think 2 does. I don't see how 1 is up for debate given the rules listed.

 Happyjew wrote:

Deathypoo wrote:
.

But I didn't miss on a To Hit roll.

"Blast Weapons and Re-rolls
-If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls to hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2d6"

Technically, RAW doesn't grant a re-roll from guide, because guide specifies a failed to-hit roll. RAW: only items/abilities that grant a full re-roll on to hit rolls, regardless of success or failure of the to hit roll in question, would ever give blast weapons a re-roll. (EDIT: And Twin Linked, which of course has it's own specific clause and doesn't need the above rule anyway.)

It's a tiny leap of faith in RAI to say that guide applies anyway. Call it a house rule is very easy to abide by.

It's a HUGE leap of faith to say that rolling a 1 to hit isn't a requirement. You didn't roll 1 one, so you didn't get the re-roll. That's where the distracting side argument about PE (orks) shooting at Eldar comes in. It's a very obvious requirement that you simply did not fulfill.

If you want to be hugely pedantic about RAW, then you would have to say that Guide does not grant a re-roll (and therefore that blast re-roll clause is probably pointless)... but under no circumstances and in no interpretation should you ever grant a re-roll from PE.

Deathypoo wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Deathypoo wrote:
.

But I didn't miss on a To Hit roll.

"Blast Weapons and Re-rolls
-If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls to hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2d6"

Technically, RAW doesn't grant a re-roll from guide, because guide specifies a failed to-hit roll. RAW: only items/abilities that grant a full re-roll on to hit rolls, regardless of success or failure of the to hit roll in question, would ever give blast weapons a re-roll.

It's a tiny leap of faith in RAI to say that guide applies anyway. Call it a house rule is very easy to abide by.

It's a HUGE leap of faith to say that rolling a 1 to hit isn't a requirement. You didn't roll 1 one, so you didn't get the re-roll. That's where the distracting side argument about PE (orks) shooting at Eldar comes in. It's a very obvious requirement that you simply did not fulfill.

If you want to be hugely pedantic about RAW, then you would have to say that Guide does not grant a re-roll (and therefore that blast re-roll clause is probably pointless)... but under no circumstances and in no interpretation should you ever grant a re-roll from PE.

Are there any rules that give full rerolls? If your interpretation is that the rule does nothing then your interpretation is most likely incorrect.

Also check Gets Hot and rerolls. Note the identical wording in relation to rerolls on blasts for Gets Hot and how it calls out a reroll 1s ability as an example trigger. Why would this be different?

 FlingitNow wrote:


Are there any rules that give full rerolls? If your interpretation is that the rule does nothing then your interpretation is most likely incorrect.

Also check Gets Hot and rerolls. Note the identical wording in relation to rerolls on blasts for Gets Hot and how it calls out a reroll 1s ability as an example trigger. Why would this be different?

If there's anything that 20+ years of this game has taught me, it's that reading the rules correctly as written is often not the same as reading the rules as intended. That's why some of the first forum abbreviations you learn are RAW and RAI.

I'm pretty surprised to find out today that guide is useless for blast weapons, RAW, but I think the RAI is clear enough to go on as before.

There's a world of difference between allowing guide, or any other "failed rolls" wording, to allowing us to ignore the requirement of a roll of 1, though. If your opponent allows you to use guide on your blast weapons and you then try to apply PE to your blast weapons, that's pretty much the definition of giving an inch and taking a mile.

Gets Hot is just a different animal completely, btw. I'm not sure it's at all relevant.

Deathypoo wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:


Are there any rules that give full rerolls? If your interpretation is that the rule does nothing then your interpretation is most likely incorrect.

Also check Gets Hot and rerolls. Note the identical wording in relation to rerolls on blasts for Gets Hot and how it calls out a reroll 1s ability as an example trigger. Why would this be different?

If there's anything that 20+ years of this game has taught me, it's that reading the rules correctly as written is often not the same as reading the rules as intended. That's why some of the first forum abbreviations you learn are RAW and RAI.

I'm pretty surprised to find out today that guide is useless for blast weapons, RAW, but I think the RAI is clear enough to go on as before.

There's a world of difference between allowing guide, or any other "failed rolls" wording, to allowing us to ignore the requirement of a roll of 1, though. If your opponent allows you to use guide on your blast weapons and you then try to apply PE to your blast weapons, that's pretty much the definition of giving an inch and taking a mile.

Gets Hot is just a different animal completely, btw. I'm not sure it's at all relevant.

The relevant part of gets hot is identical hence it is relevant. Did you bother to even read it?

Re rolling a hit has nothing to do with the scatter dice.

Has anyone tried to do this in an actual game and if so what was your opponent's reaction ?