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1 is the only way to play without changing any rules. It basically just clarifies what you are already limited to. It's definitely hiwpi

Spoletta is trying to argue that just because it is possible to not have deep strike and still end up in the detachment that has to deep strike, that you must change the rule on having to deep strike, instead of just taking things that have the rule. Again, it's a case of "change the rules" vs "dont change the rules"

The graviton situation is something different due to the idea of intent.
Nobody takes graviton to break the game, and anyone that takes an archon with the crap armour but 2++ in a 3+ unit is trying to break the game and should not be played

Anyone who has written a list that tries to force rule changes in their favour is a cheat and TFG.

Not that i think taking azrael or a pure deathwing list is in anyones favour but their opponents. But thats beside the point lol

So everyone is playing RWSF with just sammael right? That's the only way to play it within the rules

I actually have been, yes.

A TO has told me that in his tournaments, giving an HQ a bike confers the RW rule. But i won't write a list for pick up games like that

to me, it's clear that the Deathwing Redemption Force is terminators and dreadnoughts only. It's not clear to me that this is the case with the Deathwing Strtike Force. This is supposed to be the formation where you can take your whole Deathwing army, same as Ravenwing. I do not believe the error is in the Restrictions part of the rules, but in fact in the Summoned to War part of the formation. There is no reason to have almost two identical strike forces in the codex.

I have been playing it that the bike confers the Ravenwing Special rule so a Libby or IntChap can join Sammael on his raids. Funny enough, hasn't broken the game. Who would have thought?

RandomNoob wrote:
I have been playing it that the bike confers the Ravenwing Special rule so a Libby or IntChap can join Sammael on his raids. Funny enough, hasn't broken the game. Who would have thought?

Might be because that was the intention

Well the RW part of the problem is easier. The RAW is not inherently flawed, the game is perfectly playable whatever you do. It is really up to your group to decide based on the fluff who should be added as a RW HQ.

@DJGietzen

Thanks for summing up what i was trying to say the last 3 pages of this thread. Looks like i'm not good at explaining things.

 bullyboy wrote:
So everyone is playing RWSF with just sammael right? That's the only way to play it within the rules

If that's what the rules say (which they do), then everyone has to and should, unless given permission by their group/opponent. If you don't have their permission to do so, though gak, because your thoughts on the matter don't mean anything when the RAW is clear as day.

Would I allow someone to do it if they asked me? I probably, no, I most definitely would. I've allowed and played far crazier things. The thing is, there's a big difference between asking to do something and assuming you can do it because you think that's how it should be..

 DJGietzen wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
I find my interpretation fully respecting of the existing rules in a logical and direct manner while yours look unnecessarily complicated and rule warping.

But as i said, I've reached my conclusion, you're free to believe what you want, i'm no longer trying to get my point across, it proved useless.

Following the rules is rules warping?

Mind. Boggled.

You have two rules which you must follow. So, follow them. It's not that difficult.

I'm not trying to convince you. Just showing how your twisting of rules doesn't fool anyone.

Its an immutable fact that the rules as written allow you to create a situation for which the rules provide no proper outcome.

No, the rules dont allow you to get there. You have a requirement known at list building that you must comply with - all models must be put into DSR.

Failing to follow that rule is EXACTLY the same as claiming that just because in 6th ed you could build a legal Nid army with no characters in it, that somehow the BRB rule requiring your Warlord to be a Character should be changed.

There is no need to change a single rule here. I am certainly not going to propose an unneeded rules change just to saisfy somes inability to just follow the plain, basic rules

this is not comparable to grav. The reasons why have been explained.

 FlingitNow wrote:
. If you get to the game anything you take that can't be put in DS reserve so can't be legally deployed and is destroyed according to the deployment rules.

Which deployment rule is that? The only rule I saw that destroyed models during deployment is immobile models that can't be deployed during deployment and are thus forced into reserves.

The formation tells you that you have to put everything in DS reserve

My electronic BRB with a pop-up for Deep Strike says: "Some Units Must Arrive by Deep Strike. They always being the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
So if you're conceding the formation says it must be put into Deep Strike, the Deepstrike USR does cover that.

The issue that brings it full circle is the first sentence of the USR, In order to Deep Strike, the model in the unit must have the Deep Strike USR....

nosferatu1001 wrote:



No, the rules dont allow you to get there. You have a requirement known at list building that you must comply with - all models must be put into DSR.

Would you please point me at where in the restriction for detachment does it say something like that? I really don't see it.

Spoletta wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:



No, the rules dont allow you to get there. You have a requirement known at list building that you must comply with - all models must be put into DSR.

Would you please point me at where in the restriction for detachment does it say something like that? I really don't see it.

Please point out that that is the only place any restriction or requirement may be found. Page and graph

Or, for example, does the points limit rule still get invoked, even thougjh this is not a limit on the detachment?

I thought you were done trying to convince? I'm not the one breaking the rules, I can happiuly follow them all. Or can models now assault after running, when theyre on a waaagh!, even if they arrived from reserves?

How does Sableclaw works?
That is, does the Raven Sword listed for it does something? Other then to give Sammael something to occupy his hands?

Read the sable claw rules, the answer is in there.

I was hoping to get DS'ing Land Raiders back. Used be thing once. I mean the Imperium does have massive teleporters.

It was a thing in one codex, for one edition, that was widely ridiculed at the time...

I didnt think the imperium used teleporters for much more than terminator sized objects. They have massive transporters, and this is what they repreented her e- a thunderhawk transporter dropping the land raider off at some height - but it was never, in fluff, teleported in. At least, to my knowledge

nosferatu1001 wrote:

I thought you were done trying to convince?

For the first time since the start of this post, you are right! Good day to you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Survivor19 wrote:
How does Sableclaw works?
That is, does the Raven Sword listed for it does something? Other then to give Sammael something to occupy his hands?

If you read his fluff section it mentions him using that sword for his vector strikes. In fact those attacks are S4Vp2, the same as his sword.

it's pretty sad that the only way to play with Deathwing Land Raiders is to take a CAD.

 bullyboy wrote:
it's pretty sad that the only way to play with Deathwing Land Raiders is to take a CAD.

It's not the only way. Unbound still exists. It can also use formations, so you can use a Redemption Force and keep all your spiffy run and shoot stuff.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
it's pretty sad that the only way to play with Deathwing Land Raiders is to take a CAD.

It's not the only way. Unbound still exists. It can also use formations, so you can use a Redemption Force and keep all your spiffy run and shoot stuff.

Only if you don't go full DW, else that formation spells auto lose.

Edit: Oh you meant unbound with formations...yeah if it is allowed where you play i guess it works.

yeah, I think that's how we'll probably play it.

Spoletta wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:



No, the rules dont allow you to get there. You have a requirement known at list building that you must comply with - all models must be put into DSR.

Would you please point me at where in the restriction for detachment does it say something like that? I really don't see it.

I don't know whether this is plain stupidity or are malicious intent for cheating.

Formations puts them in DS reserve but they need the deepstrike USR to actually deep strike because the rules for deep strike say so.

Similar example:
Skitarii maniple gives my entire detachment scout, can you please show me the restriction for the detachement that prevents me from scouting them 120 inches and charging turn 1?

DaPino wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:



No, the rules dont allow you to get there. You have a requirement known at list building that you must comply with - all models must be put into DSR.

Would you please point me at where in the restriction for detachment does it say something like that? I really don't see it.

I don't know whether this is plain stupidity or are malicious intent for cheating.

Formations puts them in DS reserve but they need the deepstrike USR to actually deep strike because the rules for deep strike say so.

Similar example:
Skitarii maniple gives my entire detachment scout, can you please show me the restriction for the detachement that prevents me from scouting them 120 inches and charging turn 1?

going around in circles, but I do suggest you look at the restrictions in the Deathwing redemption Force and compare to the Deathwing Strike Force? In the former it strictly indicates that all ICs must be in terminator armour. They completely omitted this in the Deathwing Strike Force. Why? If the intent was to have all units in deep strike reserve, then why not put in this restriction? yes, I know we're talking about GW here, but was the intent really to have the Deathwing Strike Force playable without it's full complement of assets, such as Land Raiders or members of the Deathwing not in terminator armour. I just don't know.

 bullyboy wrote:
... I do suggest you look at the restrictions in the Deathwing redemption Force and compare to the Deathwing Strike Force? In the former it strictly indicates that all ICs must be in terminator armour. They completely omitted this in the Deathwing Strike Force. Why? If the intent was to have all units in deep strike reserve, then why not put in this restriction? yes, I know we're talking about GW here, but was the intent really to have the Deathwing Strike Force playable without it's full complement of assets, such as Land Raiders or members of the Deathwing not in terminator armour. I just don't know.

And thats the point. The differences raise the question to what is the RAI. If the RAI was for the entire DWSF to deep strike, why are we not limited to deep strike capable models as we are in the DWRF? Is it possible the use of 'deep strike reserve' was a mistake? Did they not realize that we could have models that fit within the restrictions that cannot deep strike?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, the rules dont allow you to get there. You have a requirement known at list building that you must comply with - all models must be put into DSR.

You are off base here. The Command benefits section "lists any special rules or benefits that apply to some or all of the models in that Detachment." This means they have to be in the detachment for the rules to apply. By that definition the command benefits section cannot be used to bar units from inclusion in the detachment. Thats why we have a restrictions section and frankly "All units must begin the game in deep strike reserve" is a restriction. Its in the wrong spot and because of that they have created a situation where I can create a legal list that cannot be deployed with the rules as written.

Spoletta wrote:

Edit: Oh you meant unbound with formations...yeah if it is allowed where you play i guess it works.

Heaven forfend people play by the rules.

This is exactly the kind of thing Unbound is for.

DJ - and in sixth you needs to pick a char as warlord, which was after list building. Didn't make a no char nid list any less legal.

Since Codex rules trump BRB rules when they conflict, wouldn't the Command Benefit forcing everything to start in Deep Strike Reserve trump the BRBs rule of having to have the Deep Strike USR in order to come from reserves via the Deep Strike method?

Wouldn't that be following the RAW?

No. All the Command Benefit would do is allow the unit to be placed in Deep Strike Reserve even though they can't Deep Strike. It doesn't provide them the rules that allows them to Deep Strike.

 Ghaz wrote:
No. All the Command Benefit would do is allow the unit to be placed in Deep Strike Reserve even though they can't Deep Strike. It doesn't provide them the rules that allows them to Deep Strike.

Then your Codex: Space Marine drop pods do not Deep Strike? The Drop Pod Assault special rule is worded almost exactly the same as this formation vis-à-vis "must enter play via Deep Strike" and Drop Pods do NOT have the Deep Strike USR.

False. Read the rules for Drop Pod Assault:

Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserve. At the beginning of your first turn, half of your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally.

The white text tells us how the unit arrives. Where does Command Benefit tell us how the unit arrives from Deep Strike Reserve?